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Remember that EW doesn't have to mean you take the Demolisher Cannon straight to the face and live. Take someone like Calgar for example; he's been around long enough to know when to dive for cover. Suppose that the EW in that case represents Calgar diving out of the way and not taking the full brunt of the blast head-on.


Also, who would EVER take anything other than force multiplier HQs if ID was everywhere? There's already a heavy bias toward HQs like Librarians, Farseers and Big Meks over Captains, Autarchs and Warbosses (although Warbosses are pretty common too, because they ignore most ID...).

I think characters need EW less than big monsters do. It's easy for a marine player to hide his T4 character in a squad of ablative wounds but for those armies with MC as HQ's we have no choice. One of the reasons I stopped playing my nids was the loss of EW and when daemons lose it in their next codex(they will trust me) they are going to get reaped even harder by Grey Knights(already a terrible match up). I think if force weapons didn't exist then the loss of ID would not be as bad but as it stands Grey knights hard counter Daemons enough. The kiddies who want EW gone probably just play Grey knights and are sad they can't kill every model in the game with the force weapons they have on every single model. If force weapons were limited to characters it might be less of an issue but as it stands having any 20point trooper from the grey knight codex be able to instakill a carnifex or a daemon prince is just dumb. Like the other poster said most armies(especially nids and Daemons) are leaning towards force multipliers for HQ's as close combat is so unreliable and so filled with force weapons. I fear for the future with my daemons, if chaos lost EW on their DP's my entire army is going to lose it.

AlmightWalrus, not really the best explanation. How do you jump out of the way from a railgun slug? Or if it's a Demolisher Cannon, how do you dive for cover from what looks to be a 5m blast while staying in the blast? Not to mention, how could you have fast enough reflexes to dodge a supersonic tank shell from 50 feet that is pretty inaccurate? Sure, if you see the Cannon point at you you have a very slim chance to escape, but what about when it's inaccurate and scatters? Did Calgar forsee tye future and where the shell would actually land? How do you dive for cover from weapons that ignore cover and your armor? If a tank-crushing Carnifex grabs Calgar with a minivan sized crab claw, how does he not turn to pulp and instead takes no more a wound than a laspistol would inflict?

The only reason for characters to have EW is so people don't cry when their character gets IDd.

 60mm wrote:
AlmightWalrus, not really the best explanation. How do you jump out of the way from a railgun slug? Or if it's a Demolisher Cannon, how do you dive for cover from what looks to be a 5m blast while staying in the blast? Not to mention, how could you have fast enough reflexes to dodge a supersonic tank shell from 50 feet that is pretty inaccurate? Sure, if you see the Cannon point at you you have a very slim chance to escape, but what about when it's inaccurate and scatters? Did Calgar forsee tye future and where the shell would actually land? How do you dive for cover from weapons that ignore cover and your armor? If a tank-crushing Carnifex grabs Calgar with a minivan sized crab claw, how does he not turn to pulp and instead takes no more a wound than a laspistol would inflict?

Chalk it up to luck then. Calgar could live because it doesn't grab him but rather tries to smash him and Calgar's armour protects him from most of it. He'd have better armour than an average punk, seeing as he's the Chapter Master. The point I was trying to make is that EW doesn't have to represent the character just tanking the shot with his face.

 60mm wrote:
The only reason for characters to have EW is so people don't cry when their character gets IDd.

The only reason to remove EW is so people don't cry when their Railguns don't ID them. Oh look, it works both ways. As I've already said once in this thread, do we need MORE incentives for people to not take fighty characters?

Snapshot wrote:
I only have access to 3 codices here, SM, ork, IG, and unless I missed someone, there are 1, 0, and 1 characters with EW. They are also ridiculously expensive. It's not clear to me that not being able one-shot them is a problem - lots of other things are really hard to kill too, even without EW, but we manage it (or not).

Ghazgkull Thraka is like 20 feet tall, any one of the mightiest Orks that ever lived, so EW makes sense for him. Commisar Yarrick is LITERALLY INVINCIBLE. The power of Orks belief make him invincible. Calgar and Mr. Imperial Fist Guy of Doom (Don't remember his name at the moment) have semi good reasons to have it, I think Eternal Warrior is a pretty good rule, HOWEVER, I think it should be only D3 wounds for EW.

Oh I'm not arguing for the removal of EW or ID. I just think EW is too common.

Also, MCs ignore all armor. Nice try though And luck isn't a guaranteed-everytime-ass-saving, EW is.

My Marshal cries for the day he will lose EW. XD Personally I would say either remove it, or let every HQ have it. One or the other so that it is either common place and planned for, or non-existent. I do say my Marshal has lived through so much gak because of EW that it does make him feel more epic than a standard Marshal.

 60mm wrote:

Also, MCs ignore all armor. Nice try though And luck isn't a guaranteed-everytime-ass-saving, EW is.

Yes, they ignore in-game armour. Fluff-wise though, there's no reason to assume that Calgar's armour wouldn't be good enough to lessen the blow.

So Calgar has better armor than Landraiders and Monoliths . . .

I'm really not against EW, it's just implemented and distributed poorly. Which Imperial Codex has it? Pretty much all of them. Which Xenos Codice have it? Eldar/Dark Eldar, that's it. I agree that EW encourages play of heroic characters, so why is it vastly a rule for Imperial armies?

AFAIK, DE only has 1 EW character and he's rarely ever used: Drazhar. All our T3 multi-wound HQs are EW-less like the rest of the xenos scums that we all are, so don't go ignoring us at the annual xenos party...

Snapshot wrote:
I only have access to 3 codices here, SM, ork, IG, and unless I missed someone, there are 1, 0, and 1 characters with EW. They are also ridiculously expensive. It's not clear to me that not being able one-shot them is a problem - lots of other things are really hard to kill too, even without EW, but we manage it (or not).

That should be 1, 1, and 1, as Ghaz has EW.

Yeah, there is too much EW around. I do not like it being used to represent characters that are just old and tough. Calgar should be vapourised by a lascannon shot same as every other marine.

EW should be reserved for characters with some supernatural resilience, such as daemons or Phoenix Lords. And that's why it is silly that the new daemon prince don't have it. That is exactly the type of creature that should have it; those buggers are practically immortal, that's the whole point of becoming a daemon prince.

The list as i see it of character who deserve EW

Ghaz
Yarrick
Lysander
Belial (with a hefty points increase he's undercosted already.),
Mephiston
Grimnar,
Phoenix lords
Drazhar
Swarmlord
Grimaldus (see any BT thread as to why)
Abbadon
Kharn
Lucius
Typhus
Demons (really it makes sense its annoying as all hell but it makes sense)


NAone outside of that list never needs it or deserves it.

C'tan shards?

I'm sorry but I dont get where all this bitching about EW is coming from. At best only one, ONE character per codex gets it, and they are almost always the "more expensive than than a LR deathstar mofo that looks cool but really isn't worth his points" character (Draigo of course used to be the exception until the Paladins and Titansword nerf). As someone already explained it, Daemons need it otherwise they'd get tabled by turn one (and with GKs, it still doesn't save them). The only place where I can see a legitimate complaint about EW is the SW and their whole Bear saga bs. Being able to make ANY HQ have EW for relatively minor points compared to Logan or other EW characters from other codecies is very broken and something that should be remedied, either jack up the points cost or remove it all together.

Wasn' t ID introduced to represent powerful weapons when the rules changed so that weapons stopped doing multiple wounds?

I think ID is a poor rule and was rather hoping it would go away in 6th edition. Mostly so that characters can stay alive and carry the storyline as I always felt the story is an important part of the game. As it is I never even bother with an upgrade on my commanders as any S6 hit that gets past my 5+/5++ save will ID him. Fun?

im also going to point out, its not nessecarilly the amount of EW thats out there.... the point i was making is why do people look at a new codex, RE: codex chaos, look at the DP, "no EW = useless", then never look back? and every posted list out there will feature something like "loose the DP, he has no EW so hes garbage. take a pair of sorcs for the same cost" etc etc.

why does the pressence of EW make or break a model? are people THAT un original, and incapable of thinking for themselves during and before a game? i play the game like a strategy game. i look at my opponent, and his models and devise strategys to avoid his killy stuff and protect mine, all while inflicting max damage. im sure they do the same.

i think the biggest issue here is the introduction and continued reliance on "netlists" and "internet tatica" there are only really 2 maybe 3 builds per army, that everyone uses. it deploys a certain way, and follows a script to the letter. they dont adapt, change, or adjust to a game or opponent. thus, things like EW become close to mandatory for big scary things becuase they are just "thrown in" and arent given a single sliver of tatctical use.

makes me think these people would rather just play DOW or starcraft... why bother thinking and planning when you can just spam something, point and click and win? (or loose if the other guy is faster/luckier/has the hard counter then you at the same)

Hi all.
Why have we ended up with ID and EW in the first place?
Becuse the ability for weapons to multi wound a SINGLE target has been removed.

IF powerful weapons (Eg Anti tank type weapons) did D3/D6 wounds on a single model they hit.

The there is a chance for the character to save some and survive.OR fail some and die.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
C'tan shards?

Excuse me for forgetting them!

TBH, there isn't masses of EW.

If you want your badass character to survive, sure, fair enough. He is Abbadon/Calgar/Draigo/FGrimnar/whatever after all.

What annoys the hell outa me, is that the Space wolves can take it on every singe one of their wolf lords, placing them so far above EVERYTHING else on their level, for the same cost, if not cheaper.

It's highly annoying.


Von Chogg

 DarthSpader wrote:
im also going to point out, its not nessecarilly the amount of EW thats out there.... the point i was making is why do people look at a new codex, RE: codex chaos, look at the DP, "no EW = useless", then never look back? and every posted list out there will feature something like "loose the DP, he has no EW so hes garbage. take a pair of sorcs for the same cost" etc etc.

why does the pressence of EW make or break a model? are people THAT un original, and incapable of thinking for themselves during and before a game? i play the game like a strategy game. i look at my opponent, and his models and devise strategys to avoid his killy stuff and protect mine, all while inflicting max damage. im sure they do the same.

i think the biggest issue here is the introduction and continued reliance on "netlists" and "internet tatica" there are only really 2 maybe 3 builds per army, that everyone uses. it deploys a certain way, and follows a script to the letter. they dont adapt, change, or adjust to a game or opponent. thus, things like EW become close to mandatory for big scary things becuase they are just "thrown in" and arent given a single sliver of tatctical use.

makes me think these people would rather just play DOW or starcraft... why bother thinking and planning when you can just spam something, point and click and win? (or loose if the other guy is faster/luckier/has the hard counter then you at the same)

Nice post

 Von Chogg wrote:
If you want your badass character to survive, sure, fair enough. He is Abbadon/Calgar/Draigo/FGrimnar/whatever after all.

But why does your desire for your overpriced character to survive take priority over my desire to see it blown away in one shot by a Basilisk gunner who didn't even know your character was there? Save the heroes for heroic games, 40k is supposed to be grim, and heroes getting gunned down mercilessly is much more grim.