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Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Peregrine wrote:
But in this case we have a good reason for suspecting it might continue. Religion (or at least organized religion) depends on having a certain critical mass in society. Most people keep the religion of their parents, go to a church which is well represented in their community, etc, and never really question whether or not it's a good idea because everyone around them is doing it. On the other hand, the more of that critical mass you lose the harder it is to avoid coming to the conclusion that the whole thing is just nonsense. Once religion loses its privileged position in society we might even see the rate of increasing unbelief increase, up to a point where most people are either non-religious or "church once a year" token believers.


Except religious fervour has ebbed and flowed through history. In it's short history the US has had several declines and revivals in faith.

And you also have to seperate organised religion from religious belief. It is plausible, but highly speculative, that faith based organisations that give decrees from on high might disappear in time, but to see their decline and speculate that sprirituality as a whole will disappear is just not sensible.

I mean, in the last couple of generations we've had whole new faiths appear out of nowhere. To conclude that thanks to scientific knowledge man no longer needs religion and it's just inertia keeping them going just doesn't match with how things are.

Except that's not how religion works. Religion is quite happy to make evidence based claims all the time: miracles, prayer, historical arguments, etc. It only rejects evidence and demands respect for "faith"* when the evidence goes against religion. It's a dodge to avoid having to admit you're wrong, not a consistent theory on what is a justified belief.


There is no 'how religion works'. It's incredibly diverse.

Now, I'd agree that some people in religion make claims of evidence all the time, miracles and all that. But to see that and conclude that's how all religion is wrong. It's a bit like seeing an atheist who's not that interested in atheism and all and actually just likes attacking the christian faith on-line, and concluding that all atheism is just propped up by anti-christian sentiment.

*Faith: belief in something even though you have no good reason and shouldn't. This isn't a virtue.


It isn't a virtue, or a flaw. It's just how people are.

So when someone prays for their sick child to recover they're just performing some kind of comforting ritual and don't actually think that god is going to interact with the physical world and grant that request?


It's some combination of column A and column B. How much of each depends on the religion and the person in question.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 sebster wrote:


Yes, people lie for personal gain, either political power (eugenics) or cash (Piltdown Man). In each case proper science has shown the lies to be what they are.

I'm a little unclear as to how that makes the lies told by creationists any more acceptable, though.


It doesn't make the lies told by come creationist's acceptable. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy. Also... at the time those "scientific" hoaxes were foisted on the world, you would have been considered an "ill informed uneducated fool" if you didn't agree with it.

GG
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 generalgrog wrote:
It doesn't make the lies told by come creationist's acceptable. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy. Also... at the time those "scientific" hoaxes were foisted on the world, you would have been considered an "ill informed uneducated fool" if you didn't agree with it.


Except it's not hypocrisy at all:

The scientific community rejected the hoaxes once they realized it was a hoax.

The creationist community embraces its liars, and even attempts to justify the lying.


Dishonesty in the scientific community has always come from a minority. They may succeed in influencing others before the details of their dishonesty are revealed, but the original source of the hoax is still a minority.

Dishonesty in the creationist community is universal. You'd have to look long and hard to find a significant figure in the community who isn't a liar and a fraud.



So no, it's not hypocrisy for scientists to be outraged about creationist lies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 sebster wrote:
Except religious fervour has ebbed and flowed through history. In it's short history the US has had several declines and revivals in faith.


I don't think we've seen anything like the current trend before. We don't just have greater and lesser degrees of passion in belief (while everyone still goes to church), we have fewer people actively participating in religion, fewer people having any solid religious belief, and a lot more people openly and proudly stating their lack of beliefs. And, most importantly, the trend is strongest among younger people, the people who will define society of the future as older generations die.

I mean, in the last couple of generations we've had whole new faiths appear out of nowhere. To conclude that thanks to scientific knowledge man no longer needs religion and it's just inertia keeping them going just doesn't match with how things are.


Except those faiths are still founded in an environment where religion as a whole is given a privileged position in society. For a lot of people the idea is that it isn't that important what religion you are a part of, as long as you have some kind of religion. Even if a particular religion or branch of a religion doesn't have its own inertia the general inertia of religion as a whole helps it keep going.

Now, I'd agree that some people in religion make claims of evidence all the time, miracles and all that. But to see that and conclude that's how all religion is wrong. It's a bit like seeing an atheist who's not that interested in atheism and all and actually just likes attacking the christian faith on-line, and concluding that all atheism is just propped up by anti-christian sentiment.


Go take a poll of how many religious people believe in at least some form of factual claim. Then compare it to the number of people who don't. I suspect you'll find that belief in miracles/prayer/etc is the majority, and belief in the academic "philosopher's religion" is a small minority.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/08 09:55:26


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 sebster wrote:
My nephew keeps grew three inches in the last year. If this continues, but 2050 he'll be more than 12 foot tall. How will we possibly compete with this new world of giant toddler people.

Seriously, "here is a trend, it will keep happening forever" is bad trend analysis.

Perhaps, but so is, "Here is a trend, it will definitely end!"

Bigfoot, Loch Ness and ghosts are stated belief in observable phenomena. They are supposed to literally exist and interact with the material world in direct, observable ways. That we've never observed such a thing is solid evidence to conclude they don't exist.

But the same isn't true of Odin, or any other God (well, it is for older definitions of Odin in which he apparently did interact with the world directly, but not for more modern interpretations).

My experience with religious people suggests they do indeed believe that the god of their choice often takes an active role in intervening in their lives.

Otherwise, what're you driving at?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 sebster wrote:
Except religious fervour has ebbed and flowed through history. In it's short history the US has had several declines and revivals in faith.

I don't believe we've ever had a measurable decline in actual faith, simply fervency of faith. The Great Awakening(s) weren't calling a nation of atheists back to the religious herd.

This is different. More and more people saying, "Nah, no religion for me, thanks," is something that America hasn't experienced before.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/08 10:30:35


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 Seaward wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 Seaward wrote:
Religion is fighting a losing war in the west. I've said before that I don't believe it can survive the internet age, and I think that becomes more obviously true with every passing year. Unfortunately, this somewhat inevitably leads to a few fringers adopting a siege mentality and, rather than starting to negotiate terms of surrender, guys like this are the ones who say, "We're running out of soldiers? feth it, give these kids rifles, fight to the last!" No amount of reason's ever going to piece the power of sticking fingers in one's ears and refusing to listen.


But that isn't true. The world remains overwhelmingly religious. As social pressure to be religious dropped away the number declined, but that effect has pretty much ended in most Western countries. The percentage of people who seem themselves as religious in various developed countries is now pretty static.

The only exception I'm aware of is the US, where the social pressure to be religious is still quite strong.

Actually, while the social pressure may still be there - and I'd say that's regional, not a uniform pattern - the percentage who self-identify as atheists or agnostics rises every year, like clockwork.


Could we be able to argue that there is also a societal pressure for people to be atheists, so their atheists friends stop telling them how stupid they are for praying at night?
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

I think generally people who are predominantly around non-religious people simply get less pressure to be religious. The majority of atheists are atheist through not being religious and not generally caring about religion rather than actively not beleiving in god(s).

Granted, some people will actively try to "convert" or prevent their children from being exposed to religion, but I would say that is rare (in the UK at least).

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Just because:

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Actually, Maryland's law was overturned in 1961 Torcaso v. Watkins, so there's only 6 states that actually still have those laws...
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

I cant be bothered to check for facts when copy-pasting memes.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






haha, fair enough! I just thought it was weird to see MD up on there since I was fairly sure someone in the last election cycle was outed as an atheist. Of course, now I can't find who it is so I'm wondering if I imagined it all, but oh well.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
GW Public Relations Manager (Privateer Press Mole)







I'm not sure if atheism is on the rise, or like most everything else, we are getting better at collecting data on it.

It also depends on the wording of the poll asked. If you ask someone;



Do you consider yourself religious?

Well--what is religious? Do you mean spiritual? Do I believe in a deity that kick started the basic physical laws of the universe and then sat back? Am I a pantheist or follow the god of Spinoza/Einstein? Most would likely say yes.

Or you could ask.....



Do you believe in a God that intercedes in your daily life, answers/listens to prayers and can create miracles?

You might get a different set of answers.



If you are interested in how faith has interacts with American culture and possible future trends---I would highly suggest Shopping for Faith by Cimino or A New Religious America by Ecks. Both are collegiate level books written on the subject and are definitely worth the read.





That said, personally I do not believe as a culture we will ever not have a significant amount of the population not believe in a deity of some sort. Why? Well, there is a good chance we are just too dumb to figure out many of the more perplexing aspects of the universe. Quantum mechanics is completely beyond comprehension and all we can really do is understand how badly we can't understand it. Watch Feynam describe the nature of probability and how photons interact with different mediums to get an idea of how strange the universe really is (by the way, the fact that this is FREE to watch and available to everyone is just awesome sauce);






Why does understanding matter? Because the God of the gaps is very real and pretty hard to dislodge. For example, we have reliable science that shows fMRI scans that can predict certain decisions you make 7 seconds before you are conscious of making them. What does this say about free will? An atheist might say--our consciousness is just the part of our brain that is riding the wave of subconscious decisions that were already made--so free will is a partial illusion----while the theist might say quantum behavior and predictability is actually the emergence of free will, even if we are unconscious of the decision being made. So what point is there to argue with it? Not much really...

Adepticon TT 2009---Best Heretical Force
Adepticon 2010---Best Appearance Warhammer Fantasy Warbands
Adepticon 2011---Best Team Display
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 d-usa wrote:
I cant be bothered to check for facts when copy-pasting memes.

Then how can I take you seriously?

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 AustonT wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
I cant be bothered to check for facts when copy-pasting memes.

Then how can I take you seriously?


Never take my meme-posts seriously
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Kamloops, BC

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I think generally people who are predominantly around non-religious people simply get less pressure to be religious. The majority of atheists are atheist through not being religious and not generally caring about religion rather than actively not beleiving in god(s).

Granted, some people will actively try to "convert" or prevent their children from being exposed to religion, but I would say that is rare (in the UK at least).


Yeah, I live in a family where religion was rarely talked about so it's no surprise I'm an atheist, I have nothing against religion and am respectful of others beliefs though.
   
Made in gb
Oberstleutnant





Back in the English morass

On the other hand I am an aetheist yet my mother is a presbyterian fundametalist and my wife is a catholic (but at least she is sensible).

RegalPhantom wrote:
If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
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