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If I recall correctly, these are the "special" things about Codex Marines

1. Combat Tactics
2. The ability to have scoring bikes (DA also have this ability, but Codex Marines do it better)
3. The ability to take the Thunderfire Cannon (which is underrated, although its questionable as to whether or not Preds are just better)
4. The ability to take the Stormtalon.
5. The ability to take special characters which can greatly boost the effectiveness of certain units (specifically Vulkan and Kantor)

First of all I want to say that i really enjoy reading this post, because vanilla space marines are very hard to play with if you ask me... You really need a good list and knowledge on how to use them...

So, let me tell you this last list i made and tested.. It focused around Fortress of redemption and shooting the enemy before he can do any damage.. it worked extraordinary good.. It was a 1750pts battle against chaos

Okey so fortress of redemption sitting in my corner of the board, icarus lascanon and kraken storm upgraded.
Inside there were - 2 tactical squads operating the weapons from inside the bunkers, and 2 devastator squads on top (one squad was on the top of the tower). You gotta equip your devs accordingly to what are you fighting against, i was fighting chaos so 3x plasma cannons in each squads were the choice..

My offensive group was - 2 5x men squads of sternguard veterans all with combi meltas in drop pods, and one tactical squad with melta/combi melta in drop pod aswell.

Now the question was what HQ should i take with this list? And best choice was Vulkan, so I can be pretty much sure those sternguards are going to pop whatever they need to. I dropped him with the tacticals from the reserve where i needed them.

1st turn was devastating for my chaos opponent, his land rider and defiler got shredded to pieces with my melta, rest of the crew was literally mopped up by plasma storm and that brutal large blast str8/ ap3...

So my conclusion with space marines is that each unit has to be carefully picked, to have a designated role which he must fulfill... if you take lets say terminators just because they terminators it wont do you no good.

Decide the role of your units when you are making the list, imagine it working together on the table, and last pick the HQ that fits the most that list (if you didn't start with the HQ at first place)

For the emperor!

What do you guys think we bring to the table.better than gk for a shooty mech oriented list? right now I have a SM primary and GK allied attachment list. But for a shooting Mech oriented force it just seems loads better to take GK as the primary force. With Coteaz I get real cheap scoring acos which unlocks the broken psybacks. Also gkss are generally better forward pushing units than tactical.

What do you guys think? Does GK do this type of list better? Every way I make a list and math hammer it seems so...

 ace101 wrote:
Las;HB preds are pretty good too. That big TL;Las can hit models while the HBs can slay medium numbered units

I'm not a fan of the TLLC turret. You pay 45 points to get rid of the autocannon. IMHO you should endeavor to be flexible when you can. The AC is a wonderfully flexible weapon. I'm a big proponent of the Auto/Las pred. It's 10 points cheeper then the TLLC/HB, but it's guns can actually work together. If you are shooting at a tank, the lascannon sponsons are better, because the both could hit, giving you 2 rolls on the damage chart. The HBs are just going to bounce off the armor. They might get a glance if shooting at something light. The autocannon gives you two more shots that have a decent chance of contributing against all but the heaviest armor. Against hordes the TLLC/HB is better, but that's the HBs talking. If you are taking it for anti-horde work, just run a Dakka pred and save the 45 points.

I guess my TL;DR summery of the 2 all-around preds (the Auto/Las and TLLC/HB) is that the auto/las is better vs. tanks, and the TLLC/HB is better vs hordes.

And while I'm rambling on predators...

Basic, no frills pred, just the AC in the turret.
Pros: Dirt cheep, Still AV13 up front.
Cons: kinda a waste of a HS slot, the HB sponsons don't cost that much more.

"Dakka" pred, AC/HB
Pros: Still very cheep, good vs hordes.
Cons: Very focused on its job

Auto/Las
Pros: good at killing mid-range armor, high T targets
Cons: Jack of all trades, master of none.

TLLC, no sponsons
Pros: It's a rolling twinlinked lascannon behind AV13
Cons: weapon destroyed results. Pony up for the HBs, they cost dirt

TLLC/HB
Pros: I've got a gun for that. Can do everything
Cons: Half those guns are going to be overkill/useless against your target.

TLLC/LC
Pros: Eat lascannons and die!
Cons: The price. A rhino chassis is a little to fragile for this kind of investment, even with AV13 up front.

syypher wrote:
What do you guys think we bring to the table.better than gk for a shooty mech oriented list? right now I have a SM primary and GK allied attachment list. But for a shooting Mech oriented force it just seems loads better to take GK as the primary force. With Coteaz I get real cheap scoring acos which unlocks the broken psybacks. Also gkss are generally better forward pushing units than tactical.

What do you guys think? Does GK do this type of list better? Every way I make a list and math hammer it seems so...

Honestly I think a few codex's do mech better than vanilla. Pretty much any of the newer SM codex's.

However what I think vanilla does better than grey knights is staying at range and laying down withering hails of fire. What I mean is C:SM is much more tactically diverse than GK in a single list. So you get to choose where battle happen and on what terms. Obviously GK can write different lists but their lists usually only do 1 thing well. GK does middle range better with psybolts, psycannons, and ravens. But we can stay away better. Personally while I see how GK are tough. I've never once had a problem fighting them. I think I'm like 3/5/2 against GK. which I know isn't a great record but to be fair my opponent is really good, and gets invites to national tourneys. So it's an amazing test against him. And every game has been decided by 3 or less points.

Vulkan lists can absolutely TRASH GK in midrange battles I love seeing draigowing against my 3 vindicators, sternguard melta pods, and TH/SS termies. And I've only had 1 combat tactics game agains them with my gun line list and lost but by 1 point. I had FB, he had warlord, and I barely missed getting line breaker for the tie.

Chancetragedy wrote:

syypher wrote:
What do you guys think we bring to the table.better than gk for a shooty mech oriented list? right now I have a SM primary and GK allied attachment list. But for a shooting Mech oriented force it just seems loads better to take GK as the primary force. With Coteaz I get real cheap scoring acos which unlocks the broken psybacks. Also gkss are generally better forward pushing units than tactical.

What do you guys think? Does GK do this type of list better? Every way I make a list and math hammer it seems so...

Honestly I think a few codex's do mech better than vanilla. Pretty much any of the newer SM codex's.

However what I think vanilla does better than grey knights is staying at range and laying down withering hails of fire. What I mean is C:SM is much more tactically diverse than GK in a single list. So you get to choose where battle happen and on what terms. Obviously GK can write different lists but their lists usually only do 1 thing well. GK does middle range better with psybolts, psycannons, and ravens. But we can stay away better. Personally while I see how GK are tough. I've never once had a problem fighting them. I think I'm like 3/5/2 against GK. which I know isn't a great record but to be fair my opponent is really good, and gets invites to national tourneys. So it's an amazing test against him. And every game has been decided by 3 or less points.

Vulkan lists can absolutely TRASH GK in midrange battles I love seeing draigowing against my 3 vindicators, sternguard melta pods, and TH/SS termies. And I've only had 1 combat tactics game agains them with my gun line list and lost but by 1 point. I had FB, he had warlord, and I barely missed getting line breaker for the tie.

Interesting thought. We do bring much more tactics and diverse weaponry to the table. I guess I need to change my mindset from wanting to build an army a certain way (RB/AV spam) when the army I'm using (Codex SM) can't really do it that well. If I don't I'll just keep comparing it to the other armies that do it better and just keep seeing how my C:SM are lacking in that specific criteria. Oh well, I guess if I want to do that type of army I'll need to change armies or just stop wanting to try to build it and just stick to what our current strengths of diversity are. Hmm...

Yah exactly! The other SM codex's do specialization WAYYYY better than C:SM. but we do versatility better. Like if you want assaulty go BA or SW. If you want rediculous 12-36 range shooting and assault do GK. if you want all termies do DA. But if you want an amazing all around tactical list that can play to the weaknesses of your opponent I feel vanilla is best.

alright, so I think it's time to ask for help with my list. I.E. how to use it and what to deploy and stuff. my wallet is empty so I wont be able to buy a lot of things.

Cato Sicarius-200p
Elite 1: 8 Sternguard vet (x3 combi-melta/plasmas, x2 plasma rifles, power axe, melta bombs, Rhino)-290p
Troop1: Tactical squad (10 man, power weapon, melta bomb, lascannon, Meltagun, rhino)-240pts
Troop 2: Tactical squad (10 man, power weapon, melta bomb, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, rhino)-225pts
Troop 3: Tactical squad (10 man, plasma pistol, melta bombs, flamer, plasma cannon, Heavy bolter razorback)-235p
F/A1: StormTalon w/ typhoon missile launcher-155p
F/A 2: bike squad: attack bike w/ multi-melta, plasma rifle, meltabombs-160p
H/S 1: Silver Vindicator (storm bolter, dozer blade)-130p
H/S 2: Heresy Vindicator (storm bolter, dozer blade)-130p
H/S 3: Devastators ( 5 man, x3 missile launchers)-135p
Fort: Aegis defence line w/ quadgun-100p
Total: 2000p


since the start of the DakkaDakka Campaign I am 3/0/4 in my games.
Won against a Vindicator spam by 4vp
Won against a Speed Freak Ork list by 1vp
Won against an old Codex khorn berserker army by 7vp

Lost to a plague marine/Epidemius army by 7vp (they entered hulk mode on the last turn and steamrolled over everything)
Lost to a Vulkan army by 1vp (crowded around an objective and the game ended before I could blow them up)
Lost to a Drop pod Vulkan army by 1vp (damn line breaking drop pod!)
Lost to a New Thousand Suns army by 1vp (had 5 marines left compared to 15)


Arrrg.

The only advice I have for your list is make sure the vindi's are always getting cover from a RB. Av 13 and cover makes them tough as nails. Clearly your goal is to combat squad the tacticals. Leaving 2 or 3 of them behind the aegis to use the quad gun giving one of them tank hunters from Cato? Then have the tacticals and devs ruin transports. What do you do for a counter CC unit? Cause if a dedicated unit makes it past the aegis you seem in tough shape.

Could someone give me a sample of what a good waac competitive vulkan list looks like? Preferably 1850 pts

I hear a lot about how good they are but personally never ran one yet or seen one at our lfgs.

My vulkan list was
Vulkan 190
2xtacticals w/melta, MM, combi melta, rhino/pod 430
Scouts w/camo 90
7 TH/SS terms 280 w/crusader, MM 260
Sternguard 10 man w/2 melta, 4 combi melta, 2combi flamer, pod. 325
2 typhoon/MM speeders(could be substituted for 3 MM/HF or 2 MM/MM, 1 HF/HF) 200/210
2vindicators 230

But that's a 2k list. Although I did stop running the land raider in it. And added another vindi, and an aegis and added telion to the scouts. And this has zero anti air or psyker so it's not Waac. But Waac vulkan lists basically stuff every slot as full of melta/Flamer as full as they can get. To take advantage of the master crafting and twin linking goodness.

Hmm..I thought so..

I made one I thought would be the "WAAC" type of list for Vulkan but it always ends up being extremely lacking in anti-air. Not sure how competitive it can be with such a huge draw back..TL single melta shots across the army won't cut it.

It will be competitive trust me. Basically a vulkan list wants to get on top of an opponent and melt their face into Bolivian. So the 18" movement typically takes them right over your head also don't forget a flyers base cannot be within 1" of your troops so if your on top of your opponent they almost have to fly over you... And if they hover you smash them with twin linked melta. My only flyer problem was outflanking vendettas. My main problem was having 0 anti psyker. That really hurt me against SW with GK allies or the reverse. Because GW in all their wisdom thought twin linking a squad should be the primaris power(idiots). And then they thought giving the overpowered codex's the ability to take that power.

Sounds interesting...if I wanted to run the Vulkan list I created I'd need to come up with 5 Drop Pods and then figure out how to carry them to the tournament. lol Definitely looks like a fun list to play.

I ran mine with at most 3 pods and that seems to work ok. I've seen 7 pod lists with 3 empty pods that seem crazy. So everything comes down turn one that you want. You wall off the area you want force superiority. And just go to town with like 18 melta wounds a turn and sternguard ammo and vindicator blasts backing it up. Another fun tactic for 2k+ is running Lysander in the stern pod. Guarantees they live the round they drop and they absolutely melt anything short of 10 terminators with their special ammo. And the ap3 rounds have a hard time getting hot because of his re rolls.

hmm, those vulkan lists are interesting, here is what I run at 1500

Libby with termi armour (w gate and null zone, gate rocks!)

Rifleman dread
5 sterngurad with 2 combi melta and 2 combi flamer

1 10 man tacs with ML and PG
1 10 man tac with MM and MG
1 5 man scout with ML

Stormtalon
2 attack bikes with MM

1 vindicator
1 TFC

Aegis line with quad cannon

it has something like 30 points left over for wherever (another sternguard likely)

expanding up to 1999+1 would just mean more tac squads really, and going to 7-8 sternguard.


It's very balanced (if maybe a touch light on troops) and has won me a lot, very flexible. If you want it even better and they allow forgeworld you can lose the rifleman dread and downgrade to icarus to get a dual kheres mortis contemptor dread (12 AC shots at bs 5 against anything dropping near ya , and he can man my icarus to make it a bs 5 lascannon shot! w00t!) and 2 hyperios

awwww this turned into another vulkan thread...

I dont really like stormtalons with missiles anymore, it makes him 155 points for something that gets one-shotted (with a pretty high probability, stupid 2 HP) by any quad gun. I like them lean at 130 and move it towards the more durable hyperios

Largo39 wrote:
I dont really like stormtalons with missiles anymore, it makes him 155 points for something that gets one-shotted (with a pretty high probability, stupid 2 HP) by any quad gun. I like them lean at 130 and move it towards the more durable hyperios

That would be if you had hover mode on
General question, do fliers in zoom mode get jink saves, even against skyfire weapons?

What would be if you had hover mode on? The talon doesnt have a standard hover mode.

You can choose to evade always for a 5+ jink, and then if you go all out it becomes 4+ (though if you evade your next shooting is snapshots), thing is when it comes to interceptor shots you couldnt have gone all out so its only a 5+. So with a quad gun and using jink you only end up with like a 55% or so chance of survival (ususally 4 hits, 2 glance/pens, 56% chance to save one, not great odds)

Furthermore since our hover mode prevents the talon from moving you cant use it to come out of reserve, thus with a well placed quad gun it should be nearly impossible to stay out of range of it. This is why night scythes are so much better at 100 poitns annnd why I keep the talon lean when i can/have access to FW

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
awwww this turned into another vulkan thread...

What is a vanilla marine tactics thread without any talk about vulkan and sons of fire?

The Storm Talon to me feels like a necessary evil. I honestly really like the model...I just wish it was a better vehicle or cost less.

Let's consider GK PsyDreads. Using them as an example just because I'm expecting quite a few in an upcoming tournament I'm entering:
1x GK with Psyammo 2x TL ACs has a 10.16% chance of destroying a single Storm Talon and almost guaranteed chance of taking off a single HP.

It only takes 2x GK PsyDreads to destroy our flyer basically. These will be a really high priority for the rest of our army and we will hopefully take out 1 or 2 of them our first turn of shooting so our Storm Talon can hopefully go unmolested. The TL Assault Cannon PsyRB spam only has a 6% chance of destroying our Storm Talon and has an average of .6 HPs being removed. So Possibly one...

The thing I don't like is that even with all these low chances of hitting or destroying our Flyer it only has 2 HP and cost 155pts to have decent guns...


I mean, it's awesome at anti-flyer shooting which is one of the primary reasons we should be taking one, but what do we do if we don't want to take such a narrow and expensive model? What is your non-Storm Talon answer to Flyers? Allies? Go MoF and spam more TL AC Rifledreads? Duality and take 2-3? (A standard GK army with TL Ass PsyRBs, and 3x PsyRifle Dreads can reliably kill 2x a turn without Skyfire or a StormRaven...I did the Math Hammer :/)

It's not so much that the talon is bad (id say about 10 points over, or alternately id take an extra HP), it's just that the vendetta (i mean, really? same base price for 3 TL lascannons and 1 extra HP AND armour, sigh) and night scythe are so much better. Realistically the detta should be more like 155-175 range, and the scythe should be base 125-135, then the talon would look much better. He's still a great harasser and can really wreck anything trying to hide or any other flyers, he's just so fragile given his cost.

Largo39 wrote:
...he's just so fragile given his cost.

Exactly...which is why I hate taking them. After their Alpha Strike, against any half-decent built army list which accounts for flyers, the Storm Talon will die.

Those of us saying that they are living their entire game at a consistent basis may not be fighting a very good all comers list or may be fighting one of the armies with much less answers to flyers in their Codex. Everyone can take a Quad-gun though now for 100pts and Skyfire and it has an almost guaranteed chance of stripping 2 HPs and a 20% chance of getting an explodes result.

So back to my question...What is your non-Storm Talon answer to Flyers? Allies? Go MoF and spam more TL AC Rifledreads? Duality and take 2-3?

Yah this'll be my least constructive post including my previous vulkan one. But I think talons suck because I hate the model. Seriously it's a storm bee... Soo god ugly. I'd take a storm raven in a heart beat if they were codex approved ;(

Chancetragedy wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
awwww this turned into another vulkan thread...

What is a vanilla marine tactics thread without any talk about vulkan and sons of fire?

I dont know, it just seems like an extremely narrow thing to talk about.

syypher wrote:

Largo39 wrote:
...he's just so fragile given his cost.

Exactly...which is why I hate taking them. After their Alpha Strike, against any half-decent built army list which accounts for flyers, the Storm Talon will die.

Those of us saying that they are living their entire game at a consistent basis may not be fighting a very good all comers list or may be fighting one of the armies with much less answers to flyers in their Codex. Everyone can take a Quad-gun though now for 100pts and Skyfire and it has an almost guaranteed chance of stripping 2 HPs and a 20% chance of getting an explodes result.

So back to my question...What is your non-Storm Talon answer to Flyers? Allies? Go MoF and spam more TL AC Rifledreads? Duality and take 2-3?

At 1500, I plan on using weight of fire. At 2k, I'm thinking about taking two Stormtalons for some durability.

My answer too flyers is aegis with telion firing a lascannon or just a quadgun and a rifleman. Then a lot of tactics to keep stuff away from them and out of their firing arc's which can be very restrictive. Typically I ignore flyers as much as is necessary. Great against 2 not so much against spammed or outflanking flyers though.

So i've been playing 1500pts almost exclusively since 6th dropped (mainly because thats what i have painted) However i'd really like to hammer out a 2k list in the near future. I am a White Scar player.

Captain - 175pts.
-Artificer, Power Fist, Bike

Terminator Squad (10) - 460pts.
-2x Cyclone Missile Launchers

Bike Squad (4+1) - 185pts
-2x Melta Guns, Multi- Melta Attack Bike
Bike Squad (4+1) - 185pts
-2x Melta Guns, Multi- Melta Attack Bike
Bike Squad (4+1) - 195pts.
-2x Plasma Guns, Multi-Melta Attack Bike
Bike Squad (4+1) - 195pts.
-2x Plasma Guns, Multi-Melta Attack Bike

Thunder Fire Cannon

1495pts (usually slap a Chain Fist on a terminator)

Now as soon as i increase the point level i typically automatically subtract another 100pts for my second thunder fire cannon. I love em!

But where to go from here? I love having the terminators foot slogging. They provide incredible mid-field presence thats extremely hard to shift, plus they can counter assault, tie anything up that is threatening the bikes etc. I think i'm low on scoring bodies. I've consider 2 tactical squads but they seem pretty lack luster compared to other marines. Maybe 1 tac squad in a drop pod and a small Flamer based Bike Squad?

You could always add another thunderfire, bike squad, and like aegis with a 5man scout squad and telion. Give you an extra 2 scoring units, some AA, and another thunderfire.