Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What type of weapon mounting does the Heldrake have for its Hades Autocannon or Helflamer? Hull mounted? Pintle style? TLOS from the eyes and / or mouth? I ask this because the Vector Strike & Vehicle combination make me wonder if I will be able to shoot at the same target I vector strike within a given game turn.

Ex:


Movement Phase

-Heldrake Zooms over units, ending its move 1" or more away from an enemy unit immediately beneath and behind it (facing directly away from the unit since, as per the pivot rules for Zooming Flyers, it can only make a 90 degree pivot BEFORE it moves)
>nominates a unit for Vector strike and resolves

Shooting Phase

-Heldrake is attempting to place a Balefire Template (Torrent USR) on the unit it just Vector Striked which is 1" behind and beneath the Heldrake. The starting point of the template is within 12" of the weapon's barrel and the wide end of the template is not closer than the narrow end.


Question: Is this shot possible or would TLOS from the weapon mount / unit's eyes prevent a Heldrake from shooting that target?

TLoS for vehicles is calculated starting from the weapon, so it would be from the mouth and you couldn't vector strike and shoot the same unit

Flavor Text:

"Better have one flexible neck to be making that shot," Bob said.

"You only assume the Balefire is coming out of his mouth, Bob. In my world, the Heldrake is pooping daemonic fire on your troops as it jets away from their mangled and now burning corpses." -John




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Citabogue wrote:
TLoS for vehicles is calculated starting from the weapon, so it would be from the mouth and you couldn't vector strike and shoot the same unit

But what is the weapon's firing arc?

Also, just to be clear, the unit's ability to shoot at anything is in no way related to Vector Strike other than where it happens to end up during the movement phase.

John has a good RPG minding but is sadly wrong while looking at the RAW. The shooting phase only begins when the movement phase is completely done. So, there is no way you can burn your target as you fly over.

Citabogue wrote:
John has a good RPG minding but is sadly wrong while looking at the RAW. The shooting phase only begins when the movement phase is completely done. So, there is no way you can burn your target as you fly over.

Okay, since I happen to think common sense is on that side anyways, lets say its true.

That still begs the question of what *IS* the Heldrake's firing arc with either of its weapon types, which was also my original question and title to the thread.

My guess is it would be treated as a hull-mounted but GW needs to be more specific

Hull mount

That said, the template weapon has Torrent so you might be able to flame the unit you hit with Vector Strike... Depending on how they were laid out.

Right: my understanding of it is..

pg: 71 say's that line of sight is worked out for vehicles from their gun barrel or hull placement.
pg 43: says that you can place a torrent weapon anywhere within 12 inches as long as it follows those rules of not being the wrong way round.
Pg 16: says that if no models in the firing unit have LoS at the time the shooting is resolved all wounds in the firing pool are lost.

So what you can and can't do
You CAN fire at a unit backwards as the torrent rules allow you to place the template there, however as it will then realise it's out of sight you would then have all the wounds removed from the pool so it's allowed just pointless.

I guess you 'could' model the flamer in his back if you really found you were vector striking everything you wanted to flame.. would be a bit of a nerf though.

 cute-hydra wrote:

Right: my understanding of it is..

pg: 71 say's that line of sight is worked out for vehicles from their gun barrel or hull placement.
pg 43: says that you can place a torrent weapon anywhere within 12 inches as long as it follows those rules of not being the wrong way round.
Pg 16: says that if no models in the firing unit have LoS at the time the shooting is resolved all wounds in the firing pool are lost.

So what you can and can't do
You CAN fire at a unit backwards as the torrent rules allow you to place the template there, however as it will then realise it's out of sight you would then have all the wounds removed from the pool so it's allowed just pointless.

I guess you 'could' model the flamer in his back if you really found you were vector striking everything you wanted to flame.. would be a bit of a nerf though.

Well done sir! You win YMDC. /golfclap

How is this such a debate? The weapon is mounted in its mouth, is static, therefore has 45 degrees on either side of it of LOS.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How is this such a debate? The weapon is mounted in its mouth, is static, therefore has 45 degrees on either side of it of LOS.

1) Because of the way the Torrent rule is written, and the fact that I never played IG or had a unit behave like this before now, I was curious.

2) The weapon being static does not automatically make it a hull weapon (reread 72, sometimes things are just assembled that way or glued in place). If we assume it is free to swivel and rotate on its mounting, does that mean the dragon can look left & right, and probably offer a LOS similar to walkers?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cute-hydra wrote:

Right: my understanding of it is..

pg: 71 say's that line of sight is worked out for vehicles from their gun barrel or hull placement.
pg 43: says that you can place a torrent weapon anywhere within 12 inches as long as it follows those rules of not being the wrong way round.
Pg 16: says that if no models in the firing unit have LoS at the time the shooting is resolved all wounds in the firing pool are lost.

So what you can and can't do
You CAN fire at a unit backwards as the torrent rules allow you to place the template there, however as it will then realise it's out of sight you would then have all the wounds removed from the pool so it's allowed just pointless.

I guess you 'could' model the flamer in his back if you really found you were vector striking everything you wanted to flame.. would be a bit of a nerf though.

Perfect. This answers every question I had and even cites rules. Thank you.

 cute-hydra wrote:

Right: my understanding of it is..

pg: 71 say's that line of sight is worked out for vehicles from their gun barrel or hull placement.
pg 43: says that you can place a torrent weapon anywhere within 12 inches as long as it follows those rules of not being the wrong way round.
Pg 16: says that if no models in the firing unit have LoS at the time the shooting is resolved all wounds in the firing pool are lost.

So what you can and can't do
You CAN fire at a unit backwards as the torrent rules allow you to place the template there, however as it will then realise it's out of sight you would then have all the wounds removed from the pool so it's allowed just pointless.

I guess you 'could' model the flamer in his back if you really found you were vector striking everything you wanted to flame.. would be a bit of a nerf though.

The Slaanesh Helldrake will pee corrosive flames all over its foes.

It's not a turret, and doesn't have an actual traverse. LOS is therefore limited to 45 degree arc to the front of the head.

It's a daemon, it mutates as it flys and never stays the same shape... Also have you see the size of that things ass. It's gak would do more damage then a flamer. New Rule: gak Bombs!

Anyone hit takes a pinning test. If passed unit counts as moving through difficult terrain. S2 AP - Poison(4+), Large Blast, one shot. Any model that ends it's movement phase in the gak crater takes a s1 poison (5+) hit, AP-.

Front 45 degree arc, without a doubt. That covers left and right... what about up and down. I'm assuming it reaches all levels of anything because it flys.

 Boneblade wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How is this such a debate? The weapon is mounted in its mouth, is static, therefore has 45 degrees on either side of it of LOS.

1) Because of the way the Torrent rule is written, and the fact that I never played IG or had a unit behave like this before now, I was curious.

2) The weapon being static does not automatically make it a hull weapon (reread 72, sometimes things are just assembled that way or glued in place). If we assume it is free to swivel and rotate on its mounting, does that mean the dragon can look left & right, and probably offer a LOS similar to walkers?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cute-hydra wrote:

Right: my understanding of it is..

pg: 71 say's that line of sight is worked out for vehicles from their gun barrel or hull placement.
pg 43: says that you can place a torrent weapon anywhere within 12 inches as long as it follows those rules of not being the wrong way round.
Pg 16: says that if no models in the firing unit have LoS at the time the shooting is resolved all wounds in the firing pool are lost.

So what you can and can't do
You CAN fire at a unit backwards as the torrent rules allow you to place the template there, however as it will then realise it's out of sight you would then have all the wounds removed from the pool so it's allowed just pointless.

I guess you 'could' model the flamer in his back if you really found you were vector striking everything you wanted to flame.. would be a bit of a nerf though.

Perfect. This answers every question I had and even cites rules. Thank you.

It's no different then the necron death ray from what it sounds like, that's not able to wound anything out of LOS either, even though it could technically shoot at stuff behind it as well.

If you were able to make a fully articulated neck, you might be able to hit something you flew over. But as it is you cannot.

jegsar wrote:


Front 45 degree arc, without a doubt. That covers left and right... what about up and down. I'm assuming it reaches all levels of anything because it flys.

Its 45 degree arc left and right so that's 22.5 to the left and 22.5 to the right. It is also 45 up and down so that's 22.5 up and 22.5 down. All from page 72.

So if you want it to hit ground targets model it so that the head is slightly tilted down so things are within its downward firing arch.

Or you will run into the below problem with Stormravens that myself and a mate of mine nutted out.

Hurricane bolters are positioned just over 6" above the ground, leaving them only 22.5 degrees with which to angle their shots down-wards taking the total 45 degree vertical total allowance rule as per page 72. Using some old school Trigonometry the following was worked out.

The only time that the bolters would ever get to shoot EVER is when a target is specifically at least: 15.678755578516517 inches away - leaving the rapid fire window open to only targets that are within 12" - which means rapid fire would never happen. (unless of course up against stuff at 'eye' level with the bolters, like MCs, flyers, etc.

Using the same angles on the top mounted plasma cannons/assault cannons, which are positioned at 8" above the ground - we have an even crazier result: the 36" range on the plasma cannons looking out at only 22.5 degrees at a downward incline would result in a kill zone of only between 20.905007438022025" to the 36" range. this means a measly 3.1" killzone for Assault Cannons and a bit more for Plasma cannons. unless of course, once again, something is at eye level, and not on the ground.

You don't need to position the head downward as you can just pop the template in front of the Heldrake and it hits everything under it

One does have to take into account that the "if the neck was actually articulated, its head could turn" argument is every bit as strong as the "If Death Ray ball joint was actually articulated, Death Ray could turn" argument. Or every bit as weak, depending on your position about that specific argument.

Before Doom Scythe, pretty much everyone used to judge firing arcs by using how far the weapon would turn in un-glued model and if un-glued weapon couldn't turn at all, it was considered hull-mounted.

But unless you convert Doom Scythe (or Helldrake) heavily, those weapons cannot turn at all on the (even un-glued) model.

Luide wrote:
One does have to take into account that the "if the neck was actually articulated, its head could turn" argument is every bit as strong as the "If Death Ray ball joint was actually articulated, Death Ray could turn" argument. Or every bit as weak, depending on your position about that specific argument.

Before Doom Scythe, pretty much everyone used to judge firing arcs by using how far the weapon would turn in un-glued model and if un-glued weapon couldn't turn at all, it was considered hull-mounted.

But unless you convert Doom Scythe (or Helldrake) heavily, those weapons cannot turn at all on the model.

And even if you succeed, I would call it cheating as it make the unit much stronger

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/Chaos-Space-Marines.pdf

Q:How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged weapon?(p52)
A:Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit

so thats a 360 arc firing between your legs

long story short yes a heldrake CAN shoot its vector strike target........which is wonderful against flyers for the autocannon :3

Please don't post to threads more than a month old.