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Helppppp!
I just played an awesome list of 40K Daemons that seemed unbeatable. I had all the right tactics but came up short not do to tactics but the Daemon's stats. I was playing Grey Knights with about 40 Marines, 5 Razor Backs (2 Lascannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 2 Ass Cannon), 2 Autocannon Dreads, 9 various Henchmen (mostly psykers), and Coteaz.

The gentleman was playing Chaos Daemons with 10x3 Plague Bearers, 10x3 Flamers, 7x3 Screamers, 2x1 HQ dudes from Tzeentch on throwing around bolts and gazes....

The problem I had was, the screamer jumped 24 inches after deepstriking and flamers shooting attacks destroy everything after shooting when deepstriking.
The army is highly fast, versatile in killing tanks and infantry, and resilent....


How should you counter this Army List of Daemons?

Wouldn't being holed up in the razorbacks be a good counter against the flamers?

davou wrote:
Wouldn't being holed up in the razorbacks be a good counter against the flamers?

10 Flamers will annihilate a razorback most of the time. More likely the Screamers or the bolt throwing HQs blow up the Razorback and the Flamers murder whatever was inside. It all moves pretty fast, jetbikes and jump infantry.

Also, What would be the target priority scheme?

Also, Interceptors/Strikes will let you provide a Warp Quke bubble that will protect you from the Flamer shooting if you get first turn.

I assume he had 9 flamers in those units, since 10 is illegal. With I've been Expecting you, Coteax should provide some good coverage for your sqauds - I would actually put him in a unit with 4x Psycanonns (Purifiers) and use them to blast anyone that Deep Strikes close. Stay on the ground and use vehicles to dictate fire lanes for Flamers wanting to shoot at them.

Speaking of Flamers - charge them with a bait unit before charging with a 'real' cc threat - this could be a depleted squad or some henchmen.

For the Screamers, you should win i CC against them with Hammer Hand - since you drop out at least 20 attacks before the Daemons can swing with Preferred Enemy due to Psyk Out grenades.

My problem was the flamers that shot a Assault 3 AP4 weapon at 18 inch range I believe, then 8 in template that auto wounds on 4 plus with no armor save (I think) and auto glance vehicles on a 4 plus. At the same time moving 12inches as jump infantry.

So the problem comes from dealing with 27 flamers in units of 9 and 21 screamers in units of 7 coming at you at the same time. What I did was turtled up in deployment, I went second. He came down with screamers 24 inches away and flamers about 20 inches away. Nothing scattered badly. Then he turbo boosted the screamers one inch from my Razorback wall, the flamer moved a few inches. I shot up the screamers badly on my turn, but on his second turn, the flamers jump into my turtle templating everything to death. I attempted to counter attack to only discover that his overwatch is the worse in the game. D3 template hits for each flamer without an armor save.............. Even the Dread went up in smoke with the auto glances on a 4 plus...........

I want to know what would you do differently in this same scenario?

I have a similar dilemma. One guy at my FLGS plays with a very similar list. I can never defeat it with my Deathwing army. But I almost always win with my necron army (no flyers at all).

A couple things I know for sure.
- Deamon deepstriking can be dangerous and predictable. Try to block all the good open areas with your units, spread out so lucky flamers won't be able to wipe a whole squad out. Force him to take risks with his deployment options, that should hurt a good number of units.
-Overwhelming firepower to kill his units, especcially the scary CC units such as screamers. Or use a solid block with a good invul save to stop them. For me TH/SS termies work great. How about a bunch of crusaders (3++ invul right?) paired with a deathcult assasins or arco-flagelents to put out a lot of attacks to beat them.
-If you do have to assault tzeentch flamers use the bait tactic. Charge with a small squad that you don't need. If he overwatches them, then your reall CC won't get hit. If he doesn't overwatch and you make it into combat, they won't be able to overwatch your other squad either.
-Another thing I've been able to do is kill all his troop choices in a objective game. Then hold out on one objective to win the game.

It is a tough army to beat, almost to a ridiculous level. But it can be done. Just try and try again. That is how I learned.

Also with Grey knights (I'm not to familiar) doesn't one of the characters get some sort of interceptor rule? and also that psychic power that prevents units from deepstriking nearby? That alone should seriously put a cramp in the deamons style.

 Nitros14 wrote:

davou wrote:
Wouldn't being holed up in the razorbacks be a good counter against the flamers?

10 Flamers will annihilate a razorback most of the time

That's kind of the point; would you rather they have to use 10 Template to kill a 50pts Razorback, or use them to wipe out your 250pts unit?

As for the list, I beat a similar list at a tournament this past weekend. Going first and sreading out your Warp Quake is the key. After that it is a case of making such he can't pick off your units before you can Prefered Enemy the crap out of him. Of course this is from a Grey Knight stand point, but that's what the OP was playing.

Sorry if I come off arrogant guys........ thanks for the advice

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Nitros14 wrote:

davou wrote:
Wouldn't being holed up in the razorbacks be a good counter against the flamers?

10 Flamers will annihilate a razorback most of the time

That's kind of the point; would you rather they have to use 10 Template to kill a 50pts Razorback, or use them to wipe out your 250pts unit?

As for the list, I beat a similar list at a tournament this past weekend. Going first and sreading out your Warp Quake is the key. After that it is a case of making such he can't pick off your units before you can Prefered Enemy the crap out of him. Of course this is from a Grey Knight stand point, but that's what the OP was playing.

You're correct that 10 flamers against a razorback would be a waste, but the deamons could just as easily take out the razorback with 1 or 2 screamers being used in a disorganized multiassault. Vehicles big and small are all fodder against tzeentch deamons.

If GK are really worried about deamons you can always ally with codex marines for a null zone librarian and either a TH/SS termies or a squad of sternguard for their bolters that wound on a 2+. The combo is simple. Coteaz casts prescience on his unit, librarian casts null zone and the strike squads throw down a large area of warp quake, when deamons scatter into the warp quake they either die, get delayed, or you get to place them within 12" of coteaz and within 24" of the null zone. Coteaz is in a 10 man purifier squad, and they eat 16 twin linked psycannon rounds+ 12 twin linked bolter shots+ twin linked shots from coteaz. After they eat the shots null zone forces them to reroll successful invo saves.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Nitros14 wrote:

davou wrote:
Wouldn't being holed up in the razorbacks be a good counter against the flamers?

10 Flamers will annihilate a razorback most of the time

That's kind of the point; would you rather they have to use 10 Template to kill a 50pts Razorback, or use them to wipe out your 250pts unit?

As for the list, I beat a similar list at a tournament this past weekend. Going first and sreading out your Warp Quake is the key. After that it is a case of making such he can't pick off your units before you can Prefered Enemy the crap out of him. Of course this is from a Grey Knight stand point, but that's what the OP was playing.

You're correct that 10 flamers against a razorback would be a waste, but the deamons could just as easily take out the razorback with 1 or 2 screamers being used in a disorganized multiassault. Vehicles big and small are all fodder against tzeentch deamons.

If GK are really worried about deamons you can always ally with codex marines for a null zone librarian and either a TH/SS termies or a squad of sternguard for their bolters that wound on a 2+. The combo is simple. Coteaz casts prescience on his unit, librarian casts null zone and the strike squads throw down a large area of warp quake, when deamons scatter into the warp quake they either die, get delayed, or you get to place them within 12" of coteaz and within 24" of the null zone. Coteaz is in a 10 man purifier squad, and they eat 16 twin linked psycannon rounds+ 12 twin linked bolter shots+ twin linked shots from coteaz. After they eat the shots null zone forces them to reroll successful invo saves.

The problems is how many of those purifiers will be left alive after the 3 units of screamers do their turbo boost attack over you? The TH&SS terminators can easily be ignored and avoided while they kill all the threats, then pounce on the terminators all together.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Nitros14 wrote:

davou wrote:
Wouldn't being holed up in the razorbacks be a good counter against the flamers?

10 Flamers will annihilate a razorback most of the time

That's kind of the point; would you rather they have to use 10 Template to kill a 50pts Razorback, or use them to wipe out your 250pts unit?

As for the list, I beat a similar list at a tournament this past weekend. Going first and sreading out your Warp Quake is the key. After that it is a case of making such he can't pick off your units before you can Prefered Enemy the crap out of him. Of course this is from a Grey Knight stand point, but that's what the OP was playing.

You're correct that 10 flamers against a razorback would be a waste, but the deamons could just as easily take out the razorback with 1 or 2 screamers being used in a disorganized multiassault. Vehicles big and small are all fodder against tzeentch deamons

If they want to take them out with a Screamer assault that's fine; my guys will get out of their now destroyed transport happy in the knowledge that they still didn't get fried to death in the shooting phase and are now in prime position to blast apart some Screamers.

The screamers cannot do their turbo boost move if you spread out your warpquake via a few strikes in vehicles or interceptors to push them back 12"+ from your units and then fill the rest of the area with models so that the screamers have nowhere to go - I would recommend starting out of vehicles where possible when covered by Warp Quake as well so you can charge or move back and unload.

If he is >12-15" away with the flamers, there is no way he can get there to shoot his Flame template in one turn, so you get at least 2 shooting phases - especially if you start with a wide spread deployment and then contract when he deep strikes.

A huge mistake people make against daemons is they create this tight little fortress that takes away all their maneuverability.

Finally, a dread knight with a heavy incinerator can do wonders against Daemons.

Also, remember he can overwatch once per assault phase.

 calypso2ts wrote:
The screamers cannot do their turbo boost move if you spread out your warpquake via a few strikes in vehicles or interceptors to push them back 12"+ from your units and then fill the rest of the area with models so that the screamers have nowhere to go - I would recommend starting out of vehicles where possible when covered by Warp Quake as well so you can charge or move back and unload.

If he is >12-15" away with the flamers, there is no way he can get there to shoot his Flame template in one turn, so you get at least 2 shooting phases - especially if you start with a wide spread deployment and then contract when he deep strikes.

A huge mistake people make against daemons is they create this tight little fortress that takes away all their maneuverability.

Finally, a dread knight with a heavy incinerator can do wonders against Daemons.

Also, remember he can overwatch once per assault phase.

How many people honestly take a warp quake list to a tournament? Sure you can tailor for daemons, but how many daemon armies do you plan on facing in a tournament?

Kevlar wrote:

 calypso2ts wrote:
The screamers cannot do their turbo boost move if you spread out your warpquake via a few strikes in vehicles or interceptors to push them back 12"+ from your units and then fill the rest of the area with models so that the screamers have nowhere to go - I would recommend starting out of vehicles where possible when covered by Warp Quake as well so you can charge or move back and unload.

If he is >12-15" away with the flamers, there is no way he can get there to shoot his Flame template in one turn, so you get at least 2 shooting phases - especially if you start with a wide spread deployment and then contract when he deep strikes.

A huge mistake people make against daemons is they create this tight little fortress that takes away all their maneuverability.

Finally, a dread knight with a heavy incinerator can do wonders against Daemons.

Also, remember he can overwatch once per assault phase.

How many people honestly take a warp quake list to a tournament? Sure you can tailor for daemons, but how many daemon armies do you plan on facing in a tournament?

Warp quake is hugely underutilized and very few people take strikes in a tournament. That doesn't mean it isn't a great ability, and combined with Coteaz warp quake is golden. Deep striking is going to become more and more common in 6th ed. Just look at all the factors.

Deep striking is less dangerous with only a 1/6 chance of death by mishap on a mishap.
Outflanking is severely nerfed by the inability to assault. Might as well deep strike.
GK are less common, and strikes are unpopular.
The game is increasingly objective based, and line breaker is a 2ndary objective.

Coteaz + strikes takes the current meta and uses it to their advantage. There are lots of deep striking units out there just waiting to mishap with a 50% chance that the GK player gets to deploy them within 12" of coteaz on a mishap.

Kevlar wrote:

How many people honestly take a warp quake list to a tournament? Sure you can tailor for daemons, but how many daemon armies do you plan on facing in a tournament?

At Da Boyz GT last year I played Grey Knights 3 times - the first opponent had 2 strikes, the second had one strike. The third had a squad of interceptors and Coteaz. Locally I played Grey Knights in two of the last three tournaments we had - with 15+ people in each. I faced Interceptors both times.

I guess you never see Warp Quake.

Ever sen Hulksmash's foot GK list? That has some strikes in it too.

Kevlar wrote:

 calypso2ts wrote:
The screamers cannot do their turbo boost move if you spread out your warpquake via a few strikes in vehicles or interceptors to push them back 12"+ from your units and then fill the rest of the area with models so that the screamers have nowhere to go - I would recommend starting out of vehicles where possible when covered by Warp Quake as well so you can charge or move back and unload.

If he is >12-15" away with the flamers, there is no way he can get there to shoot his Flame template in one turn, so you get at least 2 shooting phases - especially if you start with a wide spread deployment and then contract when he deep strikes.

A huge mistake people make against daemons is they create this tight little fortress that takes away all their maneuverability.

Finally, a dread knight with a heavy incinerator can do wonders against Daemons.

Also, remember he can overwatch once per assault phase.

How many people honestly take a warp quake list to a tournament? Sure you can tailor for daemons, but how many daemon armies do you plan on facing in a tournament?

The meta has changed. So has grey knight builds. With the nerf to both paladins (no more wound allocation shenanigans) and purifiers (cannot assault after disembarking from their transports), foot strikers are becoming more predominant these days. That, combined with the awesomeness that is psybolt ammo, means strikers are making a comeback. Now the difference between strikers, purifiers and Draigowing isn't as great any more.

I run both purifiers and Draigowing. I'm currently running more of a striker build like this:

Coteaz
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator
Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread


Also, a hybrid Coteaz/striker GK (Andrew Gonyo aka Target here on dakka) list just very recently won the Battle for Salvation GT.


The point is, strikers are more common now in 6th than they were back in 5th. Don't think that a TAC striker GK list is tailoring.

schadenfreude wrote:Warp quake is hugely underutilized and very few people take strikes in a tournament.

GK are less common, and strikes are unpopular.

Ah, no, just no. This is as far from the truth as can be, in fact Strikes are the most commonly used Grey Knight unit bar perhaps Coteaz himself in tournament lists, and I say this from both personal experience, being that I attend tournaments every month pretty much, and from being a part of several internet communities and seeing peoples' lists, including RHQ for results.

Where you got the idea that no one takes Strikes is beyond me, and I'm dying to know what you thought people did take.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Warp quake is hugely underutilized and very few people take strikes in a tournament.

GK are less common, and strikes are unpopular.

Ah, no, just no. This is as far from the truth as can be, in fact Strikes are the most commonly used Grey Knight unit bar perhaps Coteaz himself in tournament lists, and I say this from both personal experience, being that I attend tournaments every month pretty much, and from being a part of several internet communities and seeing peoples' lists, including RHQ for results.

Where you got the idea that no one takes Strikes is beyond me, and I'm dying to know what you thought people did take.

henchmen/psyback spam

Kevlar wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Warp quake is hugely underutilized and very few people take strikes in a tournament.

GK are less common, and strikes are unpopular.

Ah, no, just no. This is as far from the truth as can be, in fact Strikes are the most commonly used Grey Knight unit bar perhaps Coteaz himself in tournament lists, and I say this from both personal experience, being that I attend tournaments every month pretty much, and from being a part of several internet communities and seeing peoples' lists, including RHQ for results.

Where you got the idea that no one takes Strikes is beyond me, and I'm dying to know what you thought people did take.

henchmen/psyback spam

I didn't say no one took strikes, I said strikes are unpopular and under utilized. Remember when gk came out and dakka had that 40 pages or so of debate in the explanation of why gk ss don't suck? Things still haven't changed that much, lots of people still don't get why ss are amazing, and purifiers still look better on paper when people focus on the stat line.

If you count the troops and units that can be troops gk have 5 competitive options. As a deamon player I worry about ss because they are devastating to play against, but I don't worry about ss that much because for the most part the meta doesn't understand how good they are in an all comers list.

lso, a hybrid Coteaz/striker GK (Andrew Gonyo aka Target here on dakka) list just very recently won the Battle for Salvation GT.

He did use an IG detachment but yes strikes are quite common now. I do not fear warp quake that much though in my daemon list. I might lose a model or two but meh. My list has three FMCs and a CSM detachment (with hatred). Thr list I'm seeing posted should not pose near as large a threat. Tzentch heralds can be handled now as they cannot hide with'los' as easily. I don't use them at all. Screamers and flamers are good but can be torrented down - even over watch hurts them. Hammerhand messes up screamers. I'm not sure why you struggled. I don't go heavy on eitherr screamers or flamers any more. I use my CSM as my anvil. The army you played is fast but hardly resilient. Only the PBs are and they are dead slow - with a bad scatter they do nothing all game, they cannot GtG, etc. etc. He also has zero psychic defense. I run a lot of Nurgle (DPs, GuO, bikers, Sorc) but still use horrors as troops. Just Coteaz in the right unit hurts them and you should be taking Coteaz. I would review your deployment and tactics. I'm not saying you can run over daemons because you are GK - hasn't been my experience - but a competent GK player shoud go toe to toe easily. I quite enjoy my match ups against GK as I've played GK as well for a long time. I'm just focusing more on Chaos these days - lots of fun new options.

 rcm2216 wrote:
He came down with screamers 24 inches away and flamers about 20 inches away. Nothing scattered badly. Then he turbo boosted the screamers one inch from my Razorback wall, the flamer moved a few inches.

If he did this then he cheated, you cannot move after arriving via Deepstrike.

davou wrote:

 rcm2216 wrote:
He came down with screamers 24 inches away and flamers about 20 inches away. Nothing scattered badly. Then he turbo boosted the screamers one inch from my Razorback wall, the flamer moved a few inches.

If he did this then he cheated, you cannot move after arriving via Deepstrike.

He was told that he could run and turbo boost after deepstriking. I know you can run after deepstriking because I do it as well and have seen it in the rulebook. I am not up on the turbo boosting rules.

Plus another thing I forgot was Psyk-Out grenades make daemons initiative 1 when they are charged. I could won the assaults easily if I remember all my own rules. I remembered the psykers, but forget the daemons.

This was my first encounter as such and I wanted answers.

davou wrote:

 rcm2216 wrote:
He came down with screamers 24 inches away and flamers about 20 inches away. Nothing scattered badly. Then he turbo boosted the screamers one inch from my Razorback wall, the flamer moved a few inches.

If he did this then he cheated, you cannot move after arriving via Deepstrike.

No, it's a legal move. Turbo-boost is done in lieu of running. You can't move but you can run after deepstriking.

That's one of the reasons why screamers are so good. Deepstrike in anywhere and turbo almost anywhere afterwards.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 felixcat wrote:

lso, a hybrid Coteaz/striker GK (Andrew Gonyo aka Target here on dakka) list just very recently won the Battle for Salvation GT.

He did use an IG detachment but yes strikes are quite common now. I do not fear warp quake that much though in my daemon list. I might lose a model or two but meh. My list has three FMCs and a CSM detachment (with hatred). Thr list I'm seeing posted should not pose near as large a threat. Tzentch heralds can be handled now as they cannot hide with'los' as easily. I don't use them at all. Screamers and flamers are good but can be torrented down - even over watch hurts them. Hammerhand messes up screamers. I'm not sure why you struggled. I don't go heavy on eitherr screamers or flamers any more. I use my CSM as my anvil. The army you played is fast but hardly resilient. Only the PBs are and they are dead slow - with a bad scatter they do nothing all game, they cannot GtG, etc. etc. He also has zero psychic defense. I run a lot of Nurgle (DPs, GuO, bikers, Sorc) but still use horrors as troops. Just Coteaz in the right unit hurts them and you should be taking Coteaz. I would review your deployment and tactics. I'm not saying you can run over daemons because you are GK - hasn't been my experience - but a competent GK player shoud go toe to toe easily. I quite enjoy my match ups against GK as I've played GK as well for a long time. I'm just focusing more on Chaos these days - lots of fun new options.

It's not a pure GK list but it uses 2x10 strikers as it's primary shooting offense anchored by the blob squad for some resiliency.

The key to a good 6th list is resiliency. The more MEQ bodies you have, the better. That is why striker-spam is making a comeback. Not only do they provide good resiliency, but they also provide good offense both with S5 stormbolter-spam and massed force weapons.

You can't really rely on Warp Quake as you can only get it off about 50% of the time (i.e. if you go first). What makes striker-spam good is, especially against daemons, is massed S5/S7 shooting coupled with Prefered Enemy. The more shooting you have, the larger of an effect PE becomes.