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In one of the Ciaphas Cain books, its has a footnote that roughly says "It is difficult to say how cain is familiar with the behavior of infants, but considering he was part of a mixed regiment, the inevitable would occur, so it would be up to cain to assure the status of everyone involved"
So obviously this means a guardswomen got pregnant. So i'm wondering what would happen to the kid and the mother.
Obviously It is show Cain and commissars wouldn't do anything harmful to the mother(maybe the father) But what would happen?
I doubt they would get leave or anything. And i severely doubt they get out of of service for good. I'm guess the women would be delegated to non-combat roles(like taking stock or something)
But what would happen the the infant? Would it go to the School for commissars and storm troopers?

Female guardsmen (or camp whores and soldier "wives" for that matter) would probably have their children whisked away into the schola program. The Imperium could always use more commissars, and given the casualty rates among stormtroopers (at least, when I play them), the need for more people to proficiently wield hellguns is probably bottomless.

The real question is how much is it encouraged/discouraged. In modern armies, they discourage fraternization because of problems with venereal disease (and who wants casualties before they even get a chance to deploy?). On the other hand, the Imperium's need for more people has no limits, so I could see there being a program of encouraging women to get pregnant. Plus, the women would probably get a few months off from the front too. Giving birth may be scary, but so is being digested alive by a Malwoc.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
In one of the Ciaphas Cain books, its has a footnote that roughly says "It is difficult to say how cain is familiar with the behavior of infants, but considering he was part of a mixed regiment, the inevitable would occur, so it would be up to cain to assure the status of everyone involved"
So obviously this means a guardswomen got pregnant. So i'm wondering what would happen to the kid and the mother.
Obviously It is show Cain and commissars wouldn't do anything harmful to the mother(maybe the father) But what would happen?
I doubt they would get leave or anything. And i severely doubt they get out of of service for good. I'm guess the women would be delegated to non-combat roles(like taking stock or something)
But what would happen the the infant? Would it go to the School for commissars and storm troopers?

Well, in the gaunts ghosts books, the Regiments are followed by a "Baggage Train" of merchants, prostitutes, merchants and other hangers on, and it was even a plot point for a couple of characters about what happened to two children while their mother and father were fighting in the guard in the same roles as before (i think the mother even got promoted to Sargent). Essentially they were given over to a babysitter. If their parents died and were of sufficient rank for the imperium to bother, such children would then be carted off to a nearby schola.

Assuming there was consent on both sides... shoot her and the father.

It's like soldiers in ancient Rome who cut off their thumbs so they couldn't hold a sword and thus couldn't be in the army. Only in this case the woman has gotten pregnant.

Most commissars would probally say that she became pregnant to try and get out of combat... this would be treason and she would be sentenced to death.

The father could be accused of conspiring to help her get out of combat and would also be killed.

Grimdark… ya gotta love it.

White SHield Program up and comers.

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Assuming there was consent on both sides... shoot her and the father.

It's like soldiers in ancient Rome who cut off their thumbs so they couldn't hold a sword and thus couldn't be in the army. Only in this case the woman has gotten pregnant.

Most commissars would probally say that she became pregnant to try and get out of combat... this would be treason and she would be sentenced to death.

The father could be accused of conspiring to help her get out of combat and would also be killed.

Grimdark… ya gotta love it.

Yeah, Well that's, like, just your opinion man.

 Oakenshield wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Assuming there was consent on both sides... shoot her and the father.

It's like soldiers in ancient Rome who cut off their thumbs so they couldn't hold a sword and thus couldn't be in the army. Only in this case the woman has gotten pregnant.

Most commissars would probally say that she became pregnant to try and get out of combat... this would be treason and she would be sentenced to death.

The father could be accused of conspiring to help her get out of combat and would also be killed.

Grimdark… ya gotta love it.

Yeah, Well that's, like, just your opinion man.

That little blurb doesn't make any mention of female guardsman having babies which was the point I was adressing.

A male guardsman can have kids on the side just fine since it doesn't affect his ability to fight the next day.

A female guardsman is incapacitated for 9 months, and if she so chose, the majority of her child bearing years. This could be seen by a commissar as tantamount to desertion or cowardice.

A guardsman's first loyalty lies with his/her service to the emperor, raising a family is pretty far down the list.

Given that traveling between deployments can be many months, and you may not be deployed right away, it is certaintly possable for children to be born.

Then they are simply cared for by the gaggle of regiment support personel. As for what happens to the kids, they seem to get pressed into service as soon as they are old enough. And prior to that they will almost certaintly be put to use as support personel themselves. So in a way losses can slowly be replenished.

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

 Oakenshield wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Assuming there was consent on both sides... shoot her and the father.

It's like soldiers in ancient Rome who cut off their thumbs so they couldn't hold a sword and thus couldn't be in the army. Only in this case the woman has gotten pregnant.

Most commissars would probally say that she became pregnant to try and get out of combat... this would be treason and she would be sentenced to death.

The father could be accused of conspiring to help her get out of combat and would also be killed.

Grimdark… ya gotta love it.

Yeah, Well that's, like, just your opinion man.

That little blurb doesn't make any mention of female guardsman having babies which was the point I was adressing.

A male guardsman can have kids on the side just fine since it doesn't affect his ability to fight the next day.

A female guardsman is incapacitated for 9 months, and if she so chose, the majority of her child bearing years. This could be seen by a commissar as tantamount to desertion or cowardice.

A guardsman's first loyalty lies with his/her service to the emperor, raising a family is pretty far down the list.

Do you have any gw studio material or licensed material supporting your conjecture? The Caphias Cain quote in the OP is direct evidence to the contrary. I understand the logic behind you conclusion, and it is plausible, but it's not taking into account the logistics of the imperial guard or human anatomy. Only a small percentage of the time a "guardsperson"
will be in combat situations, with the majority of their time spent in transit. Add the fact that in a callous enough command structure a pregnant woman would only be physically unable to fight for a few months. Do you want to know what's REALLY grimdark? A six month pregnant broad charging into a barrage of shuriken catapults.

I would assume that female Guardsmen would, in some regiments at least, be given some sort of medication to simply sterilize her and eliminate the issue altogether, whereas in others there would probably be rules against this. I'm with Ma55ter_fett on that at least the woman could be punished for such neglectful behaviour, as I can totally see this being regarded similar to self-mutilation.

The child itself would, as per GW material at least, be moved to the "baggage train", as has already been pointed out - where it will be raised by the regiment until it comes of age and may be conscripted into the fighting part.
I do not believe the Schola Progenium would be involved as (a) it has been mentioned to be reserved for the children of ranking scribes and high officers, not the general rabble and (b) I really don't think the Imperial Navy sends an entire cruiser just to pick up some bastard toddler and move him to another planet across the sector. That's just my understanding of Imperial social structure and limited space travel, of course.

As far as the Cain novels are concerned ... ugh. I can only recommend looking at them as a satire, but not as sources of fluff. Of course there is no canon in this franchise, so everybody is free to write whatever they want, but in my opinion the conflicts between the Cain novels and GW's material are way too numerous, and the GW books (as the "origin" of everything) too important to be ignored like that. Just a word of warning, though. In the end it's up to you alone as an individual gamer which "version" of the setting you wish to go by.

Naturally it depends on the regiment.

Some worlds will raise only male regiments due to their social system, others may raise only female regiments for the same reason.

Some may only raise male regiments for the purpose of keeping all women planetside to keep the population growing.


In the novel Ice Guard, it is implied the valhallen women is only in the regiment because she is sterile, and is a subject of great shame.

Likewise, some regiments may sterilize their soldiers to prevent logistics from having unneeded burdens or so their soldiers don't have maternal leave making them unavaliable.


Cadia, being an entirely militarized society, has maternal leave as an explicit duty. All female soldiers must bear children because there is no such thing as a civilian on Cadia. IIRC they simply get rotated to the Home Guard for the duration. And there really is no need for the mother to care for the child once they are walking, all children immediatly enter basic training once they can field strip a lasgun(which is by the time they are toddlers)

 Lynata wrote:
I would assume that female Guardsmen would, in some regiments at least, be given some sort of medication to simply sterilize her and eliminate the issue altogether, whereas in others there would probably be rules against this. I'm with Ma55ter_fett on that at least the woman could be punished for such neglectful behaviour, as I can totally see this being regarded similar to self-mutilation.
.

But Don't Regiments colonize liberated planets? They would need to start a population.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I would assume that female Guardsmen would, in some regiments at least, be given some sort of medication to simply sterilize her and eliminate the issue altogether, whereas in others there would probably be rules against this. I'm with Ma55ter_fett on that at least the woman could be punished for such neglectful behaviour, as I can totally see this being regarded similar to self-mutilation.
.

But Don't Regiments colonize liberated planets? They would need to start a population.

Yes, although there are often existing humans on said planets. Or some "volunteers" of the opposite sex would be brought in in the case of a regiment of one sex was brought in to colonize a planet with no population.

*nods* It is true that (as per GW fluff at least) seasoned and weary regiments that have fought for a specified timeframe are allowed to "settle down" on liberated worlds, like the Roman Legionaries of old (which I think was the inspiration for this bit). Having fertile female soldiers in the regiment would not be a necessity for this, as there are many male-only formations and it still works out, not to mention that you might still have civilian women in the baggage train (if the regiment has one) - in addition to colonists being brought in from elsewhere or any native locals, as Grey Templar pointed out. In my mind, mingling with natives is probably the premier way of propagation, especially as the Guard soldiers would enjoy quite a bit of status due to their role in the liberation and subsequent occupation. In a twisted way, maybe this is how the subliminal sexism is propagated across the galaxy? Because male troopers get to steal native women after they're done with a rediscovered lost colony?

Additionally, if sterilization takes place at all, it may not be permanent. Knowing the Imperial Guard and going by the Codex' statement that the only uniform piece of equipment is the lasgun, the regiments that employ such a practice at all might make use of a large variety of ways to do so, ranging all the way from permanent invasive surgery up to simply putting something in their daily rations that temporarily shuts down the reproductive cycle like the pill.

There was also a topic like this on the FFG forums for their upcoming Only War RPG, where the subject was discussed amongst players and where you may find more opinions:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=292&efcid=46&efidt=684601
Some posters there argue with various "outsourced" fluff, so again - be wary of potential conflicts and see this as inspiration only. It's not "wrong" fluff and just as valid as GW's - just be aware that sometimes all these books may tell you different things, so you may have to choose.

They could always do like Krieg does. Turn women into incubators and then clone the hell out of their babies. If you wanted to be grimdark and mix the Xenomorph birthing technique with people.

I don't get the punishing the woman idea. It's not like they blew off their foot and are thus permanently unfit for duty. They get pregnant, continue to fight for the first 6 or 7 months of the pregnancy, take what is really only a few weeks off temporarily, and the day after she gives birth, she's back on the front.

They'd be off the line for scarcely longer than someone has trench foot.

Plus, the Imperium is all about manual labor over technology, and there are a lot of tasks children can do, from powder monkey to drummer boy to cosmoliner to cooks to orderlies. There is a LOT of stuff children can do, which is why you only finally saw them completely phased out of military service in the 1900's, when technology made much of what they did unnecessary.

There is only the slightest, most temporary of cons to guardsmen getting pregnant, while there are substantial pros, especially when you take the long view of self-replicating regiments over time.

Real world interlude:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19657646

Bet she was glad it's not Grimdark yet!

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't get the punishing the woman idea. It's not like they blew off their foot and are thus permanently unfit for duty. They get pregnant, continue to fight for the first 6 or 7 months of the pregnancy, take what is really only a few weeks off temporarily, and the day after she gives birth, she's back on the front.

They'd be off the line for scarcely longer than someone has trench foot.

Plus, the Imperium is all about manual labor over technology, and there are a lot of tasks children can do, from powder monkey to drummer boy to cosmoliner to cooks to orderlies. There is a LOT of stuff children can do, which is why you only finally saw them completely phased out of military service in the 1900's, when technology made much of what they did unnecessary.

There is only the slightest, most temporary of cons to guardsmen getting pregnant, while there are substantial pros, especially when you take the long view of self-replicating regiments over time.

My feelings exactly. Send in the next wave (from your uterus.)

 Oakenshield wrote:

My feelings exactly. Send in the next wave (from your uterus.)

...reminds me of a porno I once saw...

 Lynata wrote:
Additionally, if sterilization takes place at all, it may not be permanent.

Seeing as the Imperial Creed is about humans inheriting the galaxy (multiply and be fruitful?) I'd imagine permanent sterilization is criminal in several jurisdictions. The Imperial Cult seems kind of Roman Catholic, doesn't it? The Emperor (almost) died for you so better listen up and suffer for him.

Spetulhu wrote:Seeing as the Imperial Creed is about humans inheriting the galaxy (multiply and be fruitful?) I'd imagine permanent sterilization is criminal in several jurisdictions. The Imperial Cult seems kind of Roman Catholic, doesn't it? The Emperor (almost) died for you so better listen up and suffer for him.

There certainly can be multiple interpretations of the issue. Me, I would expect that a soldier's duty is to fight (iirc there was some saying about "repaying the Eternal Debt" in connection to service in the Guard), and that a female in the Imperial Guard is a soldier first rather than a woman. There are sufficient numbers of fertile females at home, and troops in a warzone are neither needed nor can they be expected to bear children. It is simply impractical - especially once we move away from the basic grunt and discuss specialist roles who are somewhat harder to replace.

Speaking of Roman Catholicism, a number of preachers in medieval times taught a doctrine about women being able to negate their inherited guilt from Eve by (a) bearing children or (b) vowing to remain virgins - see nuns. I could see the same working for many Imperial cultures in 40k as well (and it certainly does for the Sororitas), of course keeping in mind that cultures as well as even religious teachings differ from planet to planet.

In short: "Suffer for Him" indeed - but by doing the duty you were assigned by your betters rather than neglecting it for some fun in the sheets.

 Lynata wrote:
There certainly can be multiple interpretations of the issue. Me, I would expect that a soldier's duty is to fight (iirc there was some saying about "repaying the Eternal Debt" in connection to service in the Guard), and that a female in the Imperial Guard is a soldier first rather than a woman. There are sufficient numbers of fertile females at home, and troops in a warzone are neither needed nor can they be expected to bear children. It is simply impractical - especially once we move away from the basic grunt and discuss specialist roles who are somewhat harder to replace.

I do not think that many, if any, of the babies conceived would be planned in a warzone. Probably conceived during moments where they needed the human contact or the urges rose up through months of abstinence.

As an example, imagine a mixed regiment, or mix of regiments, manning a line of trenches tooth and nail for months on end. There is no chance of their being withdrawn from the lines, they're being shelled and bombarded daily, living off of what rations can be cooked quickly between the barrage of enemy shells, death is waiting, lurking and could take them at any moment. They're possibly on a planet they don't know, on the otherside of the galaxy to their home planet, they've not had intercourse for months, maybe even years, so with all of those conditions they make brief, urgent love with each other as a form of comfort, as a form of normality, if you will, or just for the touch of another person in an emotionally charged activity in adverse circumstances which they can not escape.

Or as another example the troops have repelled a massive assault by any enemy force. As fresh regiments are brought up to pursue the enemy the victorious units hold their positions or are withdrawn to the rear and celebrate. Amidst the flowing alcohol, perhaps the use of certain substances to help put them on a high, with the adrenalin still flowing from surviving the assault and winning, the basic human urges rise to the surface and pairs begin to disappear from the celebrations.

Men & women can not help being men & women regardless of restrictions or orders and if both parties feel the need for intercourse then almost nothing apart from physical separation will stop them. It's a survival instinct amongst humans to keep our species going, it's a means of discharging pent-up emotion, a basic urge to sate sexual urges. Of course the downside, or upside depending on perspective, is that babies will be conceived.

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

 Oakenshield wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Assuming there was consent on both sides... shoot her and the father.

It's like soldiers in ancient Rome who cut off their thumbs so they couldn't hold a sword and thus couldn't be in the army. Only in this case the woman has gotten pregnant.

Most commissars would probally say that she became pregnant to try and get out of combat... this would be treason and she would be sentenced to death.

The father could be accused of conspiring to help her get out of combat and would also be killed.

Grimdark… ya gotta love it.

Yeah, Well that's, like, just your opinion man.

That little blurb doesn't make any mention of female guardsman having babies which was the point I was adressing.

A male guardsman can have kids on the side just fine since it doesn't affect his ability to fight the next day.

A female guardsman is incapacitated for 9 months, and if she so chose, the majority of her child bearing years. This could be seen by a commissar as tantamount to desertion or cowardice.

A guardsman's first loyalty lies with his/her service to the emperor, raising a family is pretty far down the list.

She can certainly still fight through the first trimester. The rest of the time, she can be cleaning latrines or have mess hall duty. Rearing will be done by camp followers and appropriate personnel. While it may be discouraged, having to relegate a soldier to support duties for 6 months and then getting another recruit out of it is way more efficient then just executing two otherwise capable soldiers. That's a net loss of 3 soldiers. It's grimdark, not grimtarded.

Yeah, the Imperium isn't stupid. They're actually quite the opposite. What they lack is compassion for compassion's sake.

Everything the Imperium does has a purpose, and it is brutally carried out.

Omegus wrote:While it may be discouraged, having to relegate a soldier to support duties for 6 months and then getting another recruit out of it is way more efficient then just executing two otherwise capable soldiers. That's a net loss of 3 soldiers. It's grimdark, not grimtarded.

I would say that depends on the exact situation the regiment finds itself in. A soldier not manning the trenches when the enemy attacks is a soldier not manning the trenches when the enemy attacks. Same when the regiment itself assaults an enemy position. Depending on the number of fertile females in the unit, that is quite a number of potential absentees. Not to mention that a regiment having an oversized kindergarden in its rear (as I imagine few women would get pregnant just a single time) means additional rations are needed for quite a number of years during which the potential recruits will be of zero value to the war effort, not to mention that there's a very real risk they may simply die some day due to the harsh climate, illness or enemy bombardment, rendering all resources spent on raising the child wasted. As far as reinforcing regiments is concerned, it is certainly easier to just ship them in bulk from somewhere else rather than waiting a dozen years for the kids to grow up, provided the regiment is still in existence then.

As I said, I can certainly see it happen in isolated cases, but with all the drawbacks attached I would expect the Imperial Guard to disencourage pregnancies of military personnell - in some regiments by sheer discipline and harsh punishments, in others by mixing something into their food.

The more I read, the more I even wonder why it would be discouraged, much less punished. A pregnant woman can shoot a lasgun just as straight as a non-pregnant woman can. Given that guardsmen are there for the fact that they're warm bodies in uniforms rather than for the martial prowess of any particular guardsman, I don't see what effect pregnancy would really have on the practical fighting prowess of a soldier. Sure, at the very end it would be hard to have a pregnant woman charge up the hill, but for the end of the third trimester, you just shunt her over into a heavy weapons squad and problem solved.

I think we've got to be careful not to let the present bias things too much. Pregnancy would be disruptive to the way that contemporary armies function, but the grim, dark future doesn't have armies that function in the way that contemporary armies function. Strip away the tradition of not allowing women to serve, and the misogynistic compassion that keeps women off the front lines, and you've got a world in which women, much less pregnant women, are really only counted by means of regiment strength, and that's all.

Add to this the benefit that having a portable schola in with the rest of the baggage train entails, and I'd think that fertility would be encouraged, not discouraged, much less punished.

If the munitorum is so keen on having regiments where their ammunition regenerates itself, you'd think they'd be equally keen on having regiments where the soldiers regenerate themselves.

Consider also the possibilities of long-term space travel, garrison duty, and other not-front-line things the Imperial Guard does. I can't really see any problems with a Guard regiment having at least an unofficial daycare/school (probably run by the Commissariat).

I do think that it could differ from planet to planet, though; there might be some more prudish regiments out there that punish fraternization by summary execution or some more liberated regiments that don't bat an eyelash at female Guardsmen getting pregnant.

And some regiments, of course, don't recruit women at all, making it a non-issue.

My opinion is certainly not based on the contemporary sexism that still dominates many segments of society, including the military. Quite the contrary - I am an ardent supporter of dismantling such silly bias and establishing equality both to fight sexism itself as well as to render a military force more efficient. I just think that a female soldier is a soldier first, and getting them pregnant is (a) unnecessary and (b) a waste. Which, in 40k, means suppression to me.

In my interpretation of the 'verse, the Imperium isn't exactly short on manpower. What it does have trouble with is moving things from A to B, which includes rations as much as adult and battle-ready troopers - so it would make sense to limit the amount of mouths to feed to what is necessary, as well as to ensure that as many troopers as possible are ready to do their duty rather than coming up with avoidable conditions that limit their ability to fight. What it also has problems with is frontline discipline, and whereas I see no inherent issue with men serving next to women, there is all kinds of potential trouble once some of them develop a relationship - from jealousy to (psychological) dependency. It's just something that can easily avoided by a simple regulation and/or a pill in their soup.

But yeah, that's just my two shells ofc.

Be it Elder or Ork how would they go about in trying to eliminate a guardswomen carrying a child? Because I don't see an dark reaper cutting down a chargeing guardswomen without thinking it out first.