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Well I've now played the new CSM against DA, SW, and SM. I used more or less the same list all three games to get acquainted with those units. While I know that's hardly the who's who of the meta, its at least a strong sampling of the middle tiers.

My CSM held up very very well. Here's my observations on my favorite units (2 games were objective based, 1 was Kill points).

Cultists did a good job as meandering meat-shields and pushed pods far enough from my heavy hitters to be worth their points (so cheap). I really like having them hang out near objectives in cover.

Nurgle Bikers soaked up epic amounts of punishment and gave better than they got

Maulerfiend was an animal is two games, and never got to the battle in the third

Believe it or not, my defiler was a beast in all three games. I know the price went up, but as long as a unit takes more than its points every game and can force tactical compromises on my opponent, I'll keep fielding it. I was so please with the big D (1st game: unscathed mopped up about 400 points of marines, 2nd game: died, but took out SM Dread, Sternguard squad of 7, popped 2 pods and over 15 tacticals, 3rd game: finished with 3 HP, killed Canis, 15 wolves, 9 grey hunter equivalants, 2 DPs, and mousetrapped allied Vulcan for my other troops). The invuln, IWND, and parking inside an Aegis all where game changers.

Chaos Lord on Juggernaut with Blood Axe Daemon Weapon mauled a squad of Long Fangs, a squad of Grey hunters, and bagged a wounded Logan all in one game... more or less by himself. I'm in love.

Havocs with Aegis/Quad a x4 Flakk missiles ate up 4 flyers (1 stormeagle, 3 stormtalons) in 2 games and made themselves felt in the third (SW played opted for pods over flyers)

Slaanesh x2 LC termies did some serious serious damage, got picked on in all three games, but made their points back easy.

Veteran of the Long War paid off in spades (as you'd expect when facing MEQ).

Boons were really a non-factor, and seemed to be more fun for my opponents than me. I really see some potential for tournament lists, but I think the CSM shine more as a club/pick up match type of force.

All in all, I've got nothing to complain about (which lately makes me a minority fanboi it seems)

that is some seriously odd armies you played against . where the games under or over 2k ?

The first two games were 1999+1. The last was 2.5k.

cool. you think much would change , if you were playing 1500pts ?

Next week I'm playing a 1250 pt match in a local tournament

My list is as follows IIRC (don't have it on hand):

1 khorne lord on juggernaut with blood axe
5 nurgle bikers
4 slaanesh termies
2 squads of cultists
1 defiler
1 maulerfiend
Skyfire havocs with quad aegis.

With another 250 I'd throw in a CM squad with a Havoc Rhino and a ML... I think.

But..But.. But.. interwebz says CSM is rubbish and you should ebay your models as there is no point playing games with them!

Boy, I hope people follow the vocal moronity. Then I can pick up another fiend and defiler for cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been toying around with a CSM/Traitor guard list, and all I can says is that I'm excited, not frustrated or upset. I think there's too many players not seeing the forest for the trees with this 'dex.

I for one am quite surprised at the negative reaction to the new CSM codex because I thought it looked quite fun.

The Chaos Codex is a good one.

It's not broken with cookie cutter lists like Space Wolves and Necrons.

It can be a powerful list if built right.

It looks quite simple really - find good unit, give good mark to exploit good unit, profit.

 Lobukia wrote:
The first two games were 1999+1. The last was 2.5k.

Am I right in guessing that lists are 1,999 + 1 pts to avoid the double FOC slots rule?

Sorry for jacking your thread but I seen it a few times now so am just guessing that is why?

Grats on your solid start to your new Chaos book, my brother plays CSM but were yet to play each other, I'm looking forward to letting them flex their muscles on me.

Boar

Good to hear CSM are doing well. Glad my dark vengeance models we get some action.

Khorne Lord with Juggernaut question. Did you use the base provided from fantasy? The square one? Is there another model out their i'm not aware of?

gpfunk wrote:Good to hear CSM are doing well. Glad my dark vengeance models we get some action.

Khorne Lord with Juggernaut question. Did you use the base provided from fantasy? The square one? Is there another model out their i'm not aware of?

I have a 2k+ SM list that is all bikes, but I used third party wood bases on them (well the guy I bought them from did). So I just used one of bike bases for it. Technically you should use the base provided, but I hate the look of square bases).

wildboar wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
The first two games were 1999+1. The last was 2.5k.

Am I right in guessing that lists are 1,999 + 1 pts to avoid the double FOC slots rule?

Sorry for jacking your thread but I seen it a few times now so am just guessing that is why?

Grats on your solid start to your new Chaos book, my brother plays CSM but were yet to play each other, I'm looking forward to letting them flex their muscles on me.

Boar

Yeah 1999+1 is tourney lingo for 2k points but only one FOC.

Good to hear some positive experiences with the army! I'm trying to figure out how to make my Iron Warriors remain fluffy while still using some of the more characterful marks and upgrades.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Good to hear some positive experiences with the army! I'm trying to figure out how to make my Iron Warriors remain fluffy while still using some of the more characterful marks and upgrades.

I'm sure that I'm part of the lunatic fringe, but for my Blood Gorgons I don't treat marks and icons as forcing allegiance to a Chaos god. Using Iron warriors as an example:

Mark/icon of khorne = IW that are masters of close combat, but in that sterile deadly way... Like a train coming to fast to handle.
Mark/icon of nurgle = IW that are more machine than man. Much tougher and carry a wrongness to them.
Mark/icon of tzeetch = IW with force fields to protect them
Mark/icon of slaanesh = IW with large pistons that allow for greater speed and durability

I'd give them all weathered steel colored icons and still style them all as IW. Heresy I know, but we're encouraged to be creative by GW and CSM are already heretics anyway.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
Good to hear some positive experiences with the army! I'm trying to figure out how to make my Iron Warriors remain fluffy while still using some of the more characterful marks and upgrades.

I'm sure that I'm part of the lunatic fringe, but for my Blood Gorgons I don't treat marks and icons as forcing allegiance to a Chaos god. Using Iron warriors as an example:

Mark/icon of khorne = IW that are masters of close combat, but in that sterile deadly way... Like a train coming to fast to handle.
Mark/icon of nurgle = IW that are more machine than man. Much tougher and carry a wrongness to them.
Mark/icon of tzeetch = IW with force fields to protect them
Mark/icon of slaanesh = IW with large pistons that allow for greater speed and durability

I'd give them all weathered steel colored icons and still style them all as IW. Heresy I know, but we're encouraged to be creative by GW and CSM are already heretics anyway.

I know there is somebody floating around here that uses berzerkers as IW breacher units. I think the same logic could apply further.

Clearly, everyone that has been reporting doing well with CSM is probably lying, being some sort of plant designated by the grand GW conspiracy.

 daedalus wrote:
Clearly, everyone that has been reporting doing well with CSM is probably lying, being some sort of plant designated by the grand GW conspiracy.

And I'd have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids.

@Lobukia: Yes it really seems that you are a minority, if you think that Chaos Space Marines is competitive. You think you can come with more positive points about Chaos Space Marines?

The guys you played, did they have same skill as you?

When do you have your next games? Would it be possible for you to post some battle reports?

With all the new 'dex hate I've been seeing it's actually quite refreshing to have a positive opinion of it. Still not very convinced by Mauler and Forgefiends... whats with all the Chaos deamon engines being AV12, really tough to kill, and WS/BS3??? I remember when the Defiler was introduced... it basically spelled out the beginning of the end for the drea... I mean 'Helbrute'... now we've been packed full of better choices. That's not even touching on the Forgeworld stuff yet.

EDIT: Are new Deamon Engines going to become the trend for each new 'dex? I was kind of hoping for some new infantry units, like a return of retinue's for Lords or Mutants from Lost and the Damned. Something different from the whole... ''We need a new Chaos unit... I know! People loved the Defiler when it was introduced lets do more of the same... Voila! Forgefiend and Maulerfiend, not for getting the Decimator from Forgeworld...'' Oh wait a second... isn't the Hades autocannon the exact same weapon as the Butcher cannon? Wow PK you didn't even come up with a unique weapon for it...

NOT that having new deamon engines is a bad thing... just something less Defiler-y rules wise would have been nice...

I for one can't understand why they didn't give Chaos vehicles god-specific upgrades, they know how many convert their Chaos vehicles and they were so generous to give all other units the possibility to get marks.

And I don't understand why they couldn't give vehicles Sonic weapons.

And I know it's not everything for a vehicle but it's a bit boring that every Daemon Engine has to be created from the generic build 12/12/10 and WS/BS of 3.

Also they could give our wargear lists some additional options like the Flesh Armour and some more god-specific weapons like a few more Daemon weapons and some gear like Cloud of Flies, Collar of Khorne and so on.

But what I really do like is that hopefully this codex is a new direction Games Workshop is taking, away from power inflation. Just a little tough for the first faction to feel it.

Chaospling wrote:
I for one can't understand why they didn't give Chaos vehicles god-specific upgrades, they know how many convert their Chaos vehicles and they were so generous to give all other units the possibility to get marks.

And I don't understand why they couldn't give vehicles Sonic weapons.

And I know it's not everything for a vehicle but it's a bit boring that every Daemon Engine has to be created from the generic build 12/12/10 and WS/BS of 3.

Also they could give our wargear lists some additional options like the Flesh Armour and some more god-specific weapons like a few more Daemon weapons and some gear like Cloud of Flies, Collar of Khorne and so on....

When it comes to vehicles and the lack of god-specific equipment, I think its just that they're trying to deemphasize those things. For the upgrades, I think they figured a more generalized approach where generally good gear could be abstracted into god specific effects were good enough especilaly given the decent volume of other options. For vehicles they really want the daemon engines and general possession to be the focus of attention.

As for why are daemon engines a standard 12/12/10 and WS/BS of 3... On one hand I think it makes it easier for balancing them relative to each other while simultaneously wanting to keep the point costs at sub-200pts. On the other hand I think its about emphasizing why Chaos Space Marines are better than the average daemon at these dark gods disposal and why the dark gods need these more dependeble minions. Chaos needs chaos space marines for a reason and there is a bit of symbiotic, mutually parasitic, relationship.

@aka_mythos: I agree, I like the back ground where Chaos Space Marines aren't just the next type of minions but actually have huge potential. But the Daemon Engines could differ just a little from each other. Maybe having a front armour of 13 at the cost of its' Initiative being 2 or something like this. Just a little more creativity. Though it is nice to see new gear such as Magma Cutters and Lasher Tendrils.

Any idea of when we'll see some updates to the Forgeworld vehicles?

Yah I've only played 2 games against the csm codex but it seems awesome. Abaddon is back to being a beast, forgefiends are AWESOME!, the helldrake just smokes meq, and obliteraters got better... And for 1300 points you can take 100 bolter marines are you kidding me?!?! 4 point cultists without having to ally IG. The list goes on and on. It's a not overpowered codex with lots of variety. I still don't understand the hate.

Got my first game tonight. really eclectic list but i want to try out a few of the new units. Especially the Defiler - i'm hopign that with a Warpsmith tucked in behind for a further 4+ regen save it will be beastly.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
I for one can't understand why they didn't give Chaos vehicles god-specific upgrades, they know how many convert their Chaos vehicles and they were so generous to give all other units the possibility to get marks.

And I don't understand why they couldn't give vehicles Sonic weapons.

And I know it's not everything for a vehicle but it's a bit boring that every Daemon Engine has to be created from the generic build 12/12/10 and WS/BS of 3.

Also they could give our wargear lists some additional options like the Flesh Armour and some more god-specific weapons like a few more Daemon weapons and some gear like Cloud of Flies, Collar of Khorne and so on....

When it comes to vehicles and the lack of god-specific equipment, I think its just that they're trying to deemphasize those things. For the upgrades, I think they figured a more generalized approach where generally good gear could be abstracted into god specific effects were good enough especilaly given the decent volume of other options. For vehicles they really want the daemon engines and general possession to be the focus of attention.

As for why are daemon engines a standard 12/12/10 and WS/BS of 3... On one hand I think it makes it easier for balancing them relative to each other while simultaneously wanting to keep the point costs at sub-200pts. On the other hand I think its about emphasizing why Chaos Space Marines are better than the average daemon at these dark gods disposal and why the dark gods need these more dependeble minions. Chaos needs chaos space marines for a reason and there is a bit of symbiotic, mutually parasitic, relationship.

The problem is possession isn't so hot either, it's always generalized into something not that useful and it seems like the same daemon is always being forced into things. Not to mention poorly priced vehicles don't make the upgrades worth taking to begin with, such as the fact that the land raider is more expensive than the standard one, despite being weaker.

You'd think one of the problems is that you'd think chaos vehicles would have evolved to different varieties. You'd think a group of dark mechanicus who are khornates, in a bid to get CSM into combat faster, would rip apart the rhino, changing it up and making it easier for CSM to burst forth from the chassis, or even a variety that could hold bigger amounts of models, at some cost.

As it is, Space marines and Imperial Guard have figured out different things and are somehow far more innovative, while the Dark Mechanicus prefers the bog standard types.

You'd think at least they would be able to fix some of those Hades Autocannons to predators, or bale flamers to Land Raiders...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The problem is possession isn't so hot either, it's always generalized into something not that useful and it seems like the same daemon is always being forced into things. Not to mention poorly priced vehicles don't make the upgrades worth taking to begin with, such as the fact that the land raider is more expensive than the standard one, despite being weaker.

You'd think one of the problems is that you'd think chaos vehicles would have evolved to different varieties. You'd think a group of dark mechanicus who are khornates, in a bid to get CSM into combat faster, would rip apart the rhino, changing it up and making it easier for CSM to burst forth from the chassis, or even a variety that could hold bigger amounts of models, at some cost.

As it is, Space marines and Imperial Guard have figured out different things and are somehow far more innovative, while the Dark Mechanicus prefers the bog standard types.

You'd think at least they would be able to fix some of those Hades Autocannons to predators, or bale flamers to Land Raiders...

Possession, I'm seeing used quite a bit. Every Vindicator is taking it as the whole ignore stunned and shaken thing is pretty nice... while thats the most obvious use and may well be the only use for the upgrade its 1/4th of the tanks Chaos can choose from.

The higher priced Land Raider is a by-product of this codex being written for this edition before any others. My guess is that all Land Raiders will see a point bump as books are redone to parallel the fact hull points make it a bit more difficult to just get that one lucky shot. This complaint should really be re-parced as GW isn't updating the other books fast enough.

The Imperium isn't innovative they're derrivative... same chassis and equipment reconfigured in predictable fashion. Chaos is more innovative, unlike the Imperium, they have developed a way of grafting biology, technology, and daemonic entities into a novel nightmarish killing machine. The Imperium can't do that. The Imperium creates variants out of veneration and religious duties to preserve the sanctity of ancient designs. The Dark Mechanicum is more obsessessed with corrupted forms and pursuing bio-daemonic tecnology. IF GW ever delved into the Dark Mechanicum any more, I have no doubt their story is one of focusing on their individual interests rather than building vehicles that make tactical sense. GW could very easily do another Land Raider/Rhino variant, just for chaos... but that would be in no way as distinct as a Daemon Engine. I'd say from the vantage of scarce resources its the things that distinguish chaos that should be emphasized over more of the "same old, same old."

While I have no doubt that some Dark Mechnicum priests maybe more pragmatic, it probably isn't to such a degree that such designs would become as wide spread.

Since the Chaos Space Marine codex arrived I've been thinking about a daemonic transport made out of Maulerfiend/Forgefiend model.

The transport should have rules like the existing models so being realistic it still have 12/12/10 and WS/BS of 3 and is of course a Walker.

The model should be able to carry up to 7 models but those models may be Bulky and may be 2 different units which for example take a single transport as Dedicated transport. All passengers may shoot out as they're semi-absorbed to theouter hull of the vehicle while being transported.

Bonusses while transporting:

Either:
Shots hitting the transport has the possibility to hit the passengers instead (let's say on a 5+ a passenger is hit instead of the transport)

or:
While transporting at least 5 models the transport gains +1 to all armour locations.(Could be just to the Front and Side armour as I imagined that the models being carried are placed like so: 3 on each side and one to the front. Alternatively the model is modelled so as the entire hull/torso is a blur of Chaos Terminators, Possessed Marines, Mutilators and Obliterators and this way would grant a +1 to all locations.)

Also when in combat:

If at least one model is being transported while the transport is in close combat, the transport will have the WS equal to one of the passengers. If at least 5 models is transported while being in close combat, the transport gets +2 Attacks or maybe +D6 S4 attacks at I1.

The transport have some close combat attacks of some sort and of course Daemon, It Will Not Die, Fleet and Daemonforge.

It should also have Assault vehicle and be a Dedicated transport for Terminators, Possessed Marines, Mutilators and Obliterators.

Some rules which make more sense fluff-wise but which will nerf it:
Only models with Daemon may be transported or only models with Daemon may grant some sort of bonus to the vehicle while being transported.

I'd really just like to see more options for the vehicles. I'm very content with the options for infantry, I'd just like to see more for the walkers.

Things that work well for Chaos?

Well after my first game under the new codex i can now say fr certain...

Heldrake with Baleflamer.

O...M....G.

Just a quick 1500 point game. This thing toasted 7 berzerkers, 11 marines and took 2 wounds off Kharn. AND I forgot it has Soulblaze too, so i probably could have finished off the 2 marine squads (i got 6 in one and 5 in another).

I agree on the helldrake. It is just awesome.

I've played 2 games against the new CSM. First game was 1000 points and had 20 cultists, helldrake, defiler, hellbrute, noise marines and a generic lord. This was against a khan biker army. By the end of turn 5, the sm army was toast and half the chaos army was still standing.

Second game was a little more complicated: 3 way with CSM, crons and gk. 1000 points each. Deployment was chaos in the table center, gk and crons coming in from opposite sides, two objectives.

GK were decimated. Started with 2 strike squads, 1 terminator squad, dreadknight, inquisitor and henchmen. Tabled.

Crons had 2 groups of immortals, one doom scythe, illuminar, some destroyers and a doomsday ark. At the end only had the illuminar and a unit of immortals, fortunately on an objective.

CSM had 2 helldrakes, 10 cultists, 10 zombies, typhus, 1 units of noise marines, 1 unit of havocs Finished with both helldrakes still in the air and a partial unit of noise marines. The helldrakes took out the doom scythe, a strike squad, and a unit of immortals. Havocs cratered the doomsday ark, and dread knight. Typhus killed the inquisitor, henchman killed typhus in return. I can't remember what zapped the terminators. I think it was the havocs.

Even with one objective contested and the other held by the crons, CSM finished with 9VP, crons 8VP, gk 3VP. The gk and cron team shot at each other exactly once each during the game: both trying to get easy VP by eliminating already hurt units.

Yeah, I'd say the new CSM dex can hold its own.