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well someone was telling me in a 40k game last Saturday that 6th edition was 40K moving toward a shooting based game. Were a shooty army has all the power and hand to hand armies are going to be going away because of the rules of 6th edition.

his prof of game going to a shooting army are god and hand to hand armies die.
1. Snap shot
2. Air crafts
3. Flying monstrous creatures.
4. power weapon AP ratings
5. Hand to hand rules
6. Challenge rules.

I didn't want to start an argument with my fellow Chaos player, so I just let it go, but I say that the game has balanced out a little, but hand to hand did get some boost too, with the 2d6 assualt range, and snap shot are at BS1 needing 6's to hit.

Going to write up an new Army list for Chaos to be hand to hand and able to compete in 6th edition.

This has been discussed ad nauseam.

Good luck with an assaulty Chaos army. Vehicles with dirge casters will be your friend.

yeah thinking about starting some converting terms into mutilators, but first I need to get some Warp talons, since I don't have raptors It just be better to wait till they are released form games workshop.

Of course I guess I could use the Doomwing I had custom built to stand in for a Heldrake, I mean didn't want to have to explain my reasoning for a flier with a flamer, and then try to tell them the doomwing which was a games-workshop idea was a flier with a flammer type weapon, but the Heldrake has a flammer type weapon and is a flier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Power Scourges on the Defielers made them very nice, I found the -1d3 ws very helpful, of course it is nice when the chaos player charges me with his Helbrute and I roll a 3(5) and he becomes WS 1 and he needs 5 to hit.

I think that 6th definitely turned into a more shooting-heavy game, but assault isn't out and out screwed like some people say it is. You can't assault out of a stationary vehicle, snapshots are a deterrent, and the prevalence of targeted shooting can occasionally shut down your sergeants and heavy hitters. However, the average charge length is longer, even with the chance to fail. Challenges are interesting and I'd say can be a buff to assaults, since certain units can really benefit from it. Changes to grenades are also a big deal.

Go by the BRB with d3 pieces of terrain on each 2'x2', including some large LoS blocking piece, the assaut nerf should not be that apparent (I guess). As for me I don't care, I will play assault Nids anyway from time to time, obviously with FMCs to have any chance.

daniel79 wrote:I didn't want to start an argument with my fellow Chaos player, so I just let it go, but I say that the game has balanced out a little, but hand to hand did get some boost too, with the 2d6 assualt range, and snap shot are at BS1 needing 6's to hit.

These aren't benefits to assault though. In 5th you knew you would have your 6", but now you are completely at the mercy of the dice, even if the average is an inch more than before, and as for the BS1 argument, that's hardly a boost since in 5th they couldn't overwatch at all.

No, 6th is very much a shooty game, and your friend nailed down the reasons very well (though he forgot to add that grenades got nerfed when it comes to characters in units). I was loathe to accept that when 6th first came out but after playing enough and a few tournies I can't say I disagree anymore. Some assault elements can still work if done right, but shooting has become the dominant phase.

Yep, go with either quantity or quality, but shooting is king right now.

Assaults still have their place, though.

In 5th, if you weren't guard then shooting was sub par.

Now shooting is in the level with melee, not better.

I keep rolling over people with my CSM foot list, in both the old book and the new one. Also my mono-nurgle demons are doing just fine, if not better, and they are 95% melee.

I am still a big fan of assaulting, heck, all I own are slugga boyz!

The majority of my games are against Tau and I feel that 6th has balanced the assault more (though I miss my I3 on the charge!).

well at least I can use my custom built doomwing as a daemon engine....

I was getting tired of explaining to people how a flamer works on a fighter.... (warp fire is "Magic" and not bound by the laws of physics) but now that Heldrake's autocannon can be upgraded to Baleflamer for free.

 juraigamer wrote:
In 5th, if you weren't guard then shooting was sub par.

Now shooting is in the level with melee, not better.

I keep rolling over people with my CSM foot list, in both the old book and the new one. Also my mono-nurgle demons are doing just fine, if not better, and they are 95% melee.

Razorback GK disagreed with you, as did the other 'back or venom spam lists. Entire lists built around outshooting, usually with one or two units, max, that could handle melee.

6e is Dakkahammer.

6 Edition has moved to shooting, but do not discount Assault Armies. I brought a 2000 points Black Templars list with almost all assault oriented squads and beat a player with the new Chaos Codex and a very shooty list. Field Craft can have a lot to do with the game and how assaulting goes.

I would agree that shooting is much more powerful in 6th, but assaults still can and do change the course of games. I have played two games so far where I was getting beaten into the ground until a unit or two got into assault. Granted they were against Tau and Guard, but the fact that I was able to get into assault with enough guys to do anything gives me the sense that assault is far from being as dead as people seem to think.

I'm still doing quite fine with my Tyranids doing a lot of assaulting. Granted, my army does a lot of shooting as well. Tyranids came off a bit better on the whole charge distance thing with the majority of the army having Fleet, which makes assaulting a lot more reliable.

But every time I hear someone say the Overwatch completely neuters assault, I have to wonder if they're remembering to resolve it as Snapfire. I've never lost more than a few Gaunts to Overwatch, certainly never enough to even drop me out of assault range. I really haven't found it to be the game changing rule it's claimed to be.

People have been saying assault was "dead" since the end of the Rhino Rush, and every time they've said it they've been wrong. I don't see 6th edition as being any different.

Assault isnt dead, you still have to account for it - but the balance is now shooting over assault, for the main game

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Assault isnt dead, you still have to account for it - but the balance is now shooting over assault, for the main game

This.

To say assault is "dead" is just overreaction.

Assault isn't dead, just nerfed. Dakka got improvements, Assault got nerfs.

If Dakka got buffs and Assault stayed the same, Assault falls behind.

If Dakka stayed the same and Assault gets nerfed, Assault falls behind

If Dakka got buffs and Assault got nerfs, Assault falls farther behind.

No way to debate that without making things up.

 60mm wrote:
Assault isn't dead, just nerfed. Dakka got improvements, Assault got nerfs.

If Dakka got buffs and Assault stayed the same, Assault falls behind.

If Dakka stayed the same and Assault gets nerfed, Assault falls behind

If Dakka got buffs and Assault got nerfs, Assault falls farther behind.

No way to debate that without making things up.

Assault also got buffs, though. Things aren't as straightforward as a lot of people seem to think.

 Kingsley wrote:

 60mm wrote:
Assault isn't dead, just nerfed. Dakka got improvements, Assault got nerfs.

If Dakka got buffs and Assault stayed the same, Assault falls behind.

If Dakka stayed the same and Assault gets nerfed, Assault falls behind

If Dakka got buffs and Assault got nerfs, Assault falls farther behind.

No way to debate that without making things up.

Assault also got buffs, though. Things aren't as straightforward as a lot of people seem to think.

Do tell.

 Kingsley wrote:
Assault also got buffs, though. Things aren't as straightforward as a lot of people seem to think.

It depends on the army and unit you're talking about, you can't honestly tell me that DE assault side has gotten better... We've even lost 2" in maximum assault distance, and gained a huge random range that has made assault way too risky for our fragile units(namely the wyches/bloodbrides)... Though, I'm not complaining about the 6" disembark, that 2" disembark was hell enough for my wyches last edition, especially with me being an idiot and always moving way too close...

On the other hand, non-fleet armies have gained some potentially longer charge!

Baronyu wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Assault also got buffs, though. Things aren't as straightforward as a lot of people seem to think.

It depends on the army and unit you're talking about, you can't honestly tell me that DE assault side has gotten better... We've even lost 2" in maximum assault distance, and gained a huge random range that has made assault way too risky for our fragile units(namely the wyches/bloodbrides)... Though, I'm not complaining about the 6" disembark, that 2" disembark was hell enough for my wyches last edition, especially with me being an idiot and always moving way too close...

On the other hand, non-fleet armies have gained some potentially longer charge!

Some things got better, some things got worse. On the subject of things that have gotten better for DE assault-- your haywire grenades are MUCH more lethal now that glancing hits actually damage vehicles significantly, and you hit with those on a minimum of 3+ rather than a minimum of 6+. Fleet now helps you on turns that you don't charge by allowing you to reroll movement distances. Assault didn't get nerfed across the board like some people think, nor did it get buffed across the board-- there are tradeoffs now.

 Kingsley wrote:

Baronyu wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Assault also got buffs, though. Things aren't as straightforward as a lot of people seem to think.

It depends on the army and unit you're talking about, you can't honestly tell me that DE assault side has gotten better... We've even lost 2" in maximum assault distance, and gained a huge random range that has made assault way too risky for our fragile units(namely the wyches/bloodbrides)... Though, I'm not complaining about the 6" disembark, that 2" disembark was hell enough for my wyches last edition, especially with me being an idiot and always moving way too close...

On the other hand, non-fleet armies have gained some potentially longer charge!

Some things got better, some things got worse. On the subject of things that have gotten better for DE assault-- your haywire grenades are MUCH more lethal now that glancing hits actually damage vehicles significantly, and you hit with those on a minimum of 3+ rather than a minimum of 6+. Fleet now helps you on turns that you don't charge by allowing you to reroll movement distances. Assault didn't get nerfed across the board like some people think, nor did it get buffed across the board-- there are tradeoffs now.

That helps specific armies and the changes to assault distance and fleet have reduced the reliable assault range of fleet units, that math has been done.

What can you provide that improves Assault, across the board.

 60mm wrote:
What can you provide that improves Assault, across the board.

Uh, nothing? I just said that assault was neither buffed nor nerfed across the board, so I'm not sure why you would ask me for examples of how it was...

Fearless wounds, for certain units, is about the only across the board improvement. If you survive the I steps you will still be around to fight next turn, which is generaly an improvement

 Kingsley wrote:

 60mm wrote:
What can you provide that improves Assault, across the board.

Uh, nothing? I just said that assault was neither buffed nor nerfed across the board, so I'm not sure why you would ask me for examples of how it was...

Random Assault range and Fleet changes have reduced the reliable distance for Assault. That is a nerf.

But, let's pretend that those both stayed the same from 5e and Assault distance and fleet received no changes.

Overwatch, Rapid Fire changes and Wound Allocation from the front all hurt Assault. Even if Assault wasn't touched, those changes to dakka that directly effect it, directly nerf it. Not sure how you miss Overwatch being an Assault nerf, as it is only applied against assaulting units.

What about Disordered Charge, explain how that is not a nerf to Assault across the board? Forgot about that one?

If you can refute these with math or direct quotes from the rulebook showing these interpretations to be false, I will gladly agree.


Nosferatu, while the Fearless wounds change is a buff for some units in Assault, it is not an Assault buff as it has no effect on the vast majority of units

Well I finished up my assault Chaos force, it is not along the fluff, but i just used the models I owned, wish I had plague Bearers.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/482706.page#4873997

 60mm wrote:
Random Assault range and Fleet changes have reduced the reliable distance for Assault. That is a nerf.

Not across the board. I personally think Fleet is better now since it works both on the turn you charge and turns that you don't. Random assault range has increased the average charge length.

60mm wrote:Overwatch, Rapid Fire changes and Wound Allocation from the front all hurt Assault. Even if Assault wasn't touched, those changes to dakka that directly effect it, directly nerf it. Not sure how you miss Overwatch being an Assault nerf, as it is only applied against assaulting units.

The expected value of Overwatch is very low in most cases, and many units-- most notably all non-Walker vehicles-- can't do it at all. Further, its effects can be mitigated through smart play.

60mm wrote:What about Disordered Charge, explain how that is not a nerf to Assault across the board? Forgot about that one?

Easy, it does nothing in most cases. Most assaults aren't multi-assaults, and many multi-assaults aren't affected. A Wych squad charging two Chimeras doesn't care that it's a Disordered Charge, since haywire grenades give you one attack just the same.

60mm wrote:Nosferatu, while the Fearless wounds change is a buff for some units in Assault, it is not an Assault buff as it has no effect on the vast majority of units

Neither does Overwatch, but you aren't willing to discount that. As I said earlier, things didn't get better or worse across the board, but rather in subtle ways.

It's easy to say "assault got nerfed" or "shooting got buffed," and it's hard to say "Dark Eldar Wyches are in some respects a riskier unit now because Overwatch introduces high variance to results when charging normal units, but changes to vehicles make their Haywire Grenades both more accurate in most cases (and much more accurate in the case of walkers and vehicles moving fast) and more damaging, so on net they are more effective against vehicles but riskier against infantry."

However, the second statement is more true than the first, so putting in the effort to understand things on a deeper level can be quite informative and useful.

 Kingsley wrote:

 60mm wrote:
Random Assault range and Fleet changes have reduced the reliable distance for Assault. That is a nerf.

Not across the board. I personally think Fleet is better now since it works both on the turn you charge and turns that you don't. Random assault range has increased the average charge length.

And on the turn you assault, you have no guarantee you can charge a unit 4" away.

Kingsley wrote:
The expected value of Overwatch is very low in most cases, and many units-- most notably all non-Walker vehicles-- can't do it at all. Further, its effects can be mitigated through smart play.

Just because you think the impact of a nerf is very low, does not mean it is not a nerf. I've seen several assaults fail because of overwatch.

60mm wrote:What about Disordered Charge, explain how that is not a nerf to Assault across the board? Forgot about that one?

Kingsley wrote:
Easy, it does nothing in most cases. Most assaults aren't multi-assaults, and many multi-assaults aren't affected. A Wych squad charging two Chimeras doesn't care that it's a Disordered Charge, since haywire grenades give you one attack just the same.

In "most" cases for who? That's funny that you could only pull up Wyches and Haywires again. Find one unit uneffected by this in the Tyranid Codex. Your answer to a nerf to multi-assault is that most assaults aren't multi-assaults. So hence the nerf disappeared? And "many assaults" are multi assaults against vehicles close together but not in squadrons?!? This is the most laughable one of all!

60mm wrote:Nosferatu, while the Fearless wounds change is a buff for some units in Assault, it is not an Assault buff as it has no effect on the vast majority of units

Kingsley wrote:
Neither does Overwatch, but you aren't willing to discount that. As I said earlier, things didn't get better or worse across the board, but rather in subtle ways.

There are units that have a special rule that allows them to assault without receiving Overwatch? Do tell.

Kingsley wrote:
It's easy to say "assault got nerfed" or "shooting got buffed," and it's hard to say "Dark Eldar Wyches are in some respects a riskier unit now because Overwatch introduces high variance to results when charging normal units, but changes to vehicles make their Haywire Grenades both more accurate in most cases (and much more accurate in the case of walkers and vehicles moving fast) and more damaging, so on net they are more effective against vehicles but riskier against infantry."

However, the second statement is more true than the first, so putting in the effort to understand things on a deeper level can be quite informative and useful.

Try using anything but Wyches with Haywires. Try all this for Hormagants for example. You have not, and cannot, dispprove these nerfs exist. All you can do is say that you don't think they're that bad. Does not change it from being a nerf.


TLDR
This argument is still revolving around one dispute. Are there any nerfs that Assault received across the board. You could not deny Overwatch, only said you don't think it's that bad. You couldn't disprove Disordered Charge, again only stating you think it's not that bad. Find me units that have the ability to Assault that are exempt from these rules and you win the debate. Problem is, you can't. The only codex released since 6e has no units that are exempt from these rules, which is the only possibility. But please, continue to flail.