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whembly wrote: I guess what I'm driving at is that if Scotland secedes from the the Union, what's going to stop the rest of the states from doing the same thing?
That's like if New Hampshire secede from the US. While, it won't be "damaging" per se... but what's going to stop Texas or California from going independent? They're their own country practically and THAT be quite damaging to the Union.
Its a bit more complex than that
Scotland was a distinct nation for 900 years, 3 times longer than it has been part of the UK. How long was New Hampshire its own nation?
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
Da Boss wrote: I don't see the UK losing it's security council seat. Obama might not be the UK's biggest fan, but he's going to want to keep allies and culturally similar powers on the security council. I think the French would be the same.
Though with all the Eurosceptic xenophobic rhetoric floating around england, maybe they'd be fed up enough to change their minds
It'll be interesting, whatever happens. I think the Troubles are stirring again anyway, RIRA members have been caught spying on the Garda Special Branch members, huge numbers of pipe bombs have been planted in dublin since the Queen's visit, and the RIRA are engaged in a full on gang war for control of the republic's drug trade. That's not even mentioning the continued attacks on british soldiers in the north, trouble at orange order parades getting worse year on year and the rise of Sinn Féin on both sides of the border.
I think it'll even out, because I reckon this can all be explained by pissed off people in a tough economic situation becoming militant, but yeah. The devolution or independence of scotland will probably have knock on effects beyond what anyone expects.
Attacks on the Orange Order aren't anything new. It seems worse because they (the Orangemen) keep getting bolder and more aggressive. (Not ness. violent aggressive) Hell they even applied for a permit to march through Dublin this summer.
Not to drag this off topic, but the Orange Order have already marched through dublin, albiet under the guise of the "love ulster" parade a few years back. There was a minor riot (the council thoughtfully left a load of cobblestones ready to be put down along the parade route, bless their hearts). However, it seems to me that the violence at the marches and the general ill feeling on both sides is escalating these last couple of years. I put it down to more bored unemployed people in the areas the marches generally happen in. Sinn Féin offices have been firebombed in dublin, and explosive devices have been found near them. A very large viable device was found a few months ago on an island in the Phoenix Park. I guess the only comforting thing to draw from all of this is that the RIRA don't seem to be that competent.
If it was down to me, I'd ban the whole bloody thing. We'd always get Northerners down our way in the summer, just wanting to get away from all that madness.
Orlanth wrote: Try Glasgow. English residents don't get voting slips and get discriminated against by local authorities. Got a dispute over council tax that needs sorting.
If you have an English accent, they wont listen. People who support the resident are told its in their interest to remain quiet. I personally know cases of this.
Its not pitchforks and flaming torches. Though something similar to that might happen in some parts of Scotland after independence.
Stories like this rarely hit the press, probably wouldn't be allowed to reach print anyway. And saying help I'm English living in Glasgow and the council are not listening wont help matter either. How do you think the authorities react to stuff like that, sorry we will get our procedure right next time, or a heavy increase in administrative errors.
I know a case still being hammered in the sherrifs court two years after he categorically proved he wowed a Scottish council no money. they would make a nasty andministrative error monerth after month and get nasty and officiaous about it. They didn't feth up anyone else housing benefit in that street, but then they were Scottish.
Yes thats 'hearsay', but I heard it say quite a lot.
Now on the other hand I have equally English family in Aberdeen, no problems at all. Not one. Its the East-West divide in Scotland that is growing embittered and vocal as this referendum looms.
Sorry it might not be what you want to hear but in certain parts of Scotland there is a xenophobic hatred of the English and it extends deep into local government and can make peoples lives unlivable though heavily repetetive 'errors' like lost forms and misread procedures backed up with court orders or enforcement.
I'm sorry, but this is crap. I live on the west coast most of the year, and I have seen no evidence of this at all. True enough, some of Scotland's people do display an irrational xenophobia to the English as a people, for stupid and nonsensical reasons. This I can believe, and have even had the odd occasion where I have been unfortunate enough to witness such idiocy. But you are seriously trying to tell me that Glasgow City Council are discriminating agaist English-speaking people?
Take your tinfoil hat and crazy conspiracy theories and keep walking, if you please!
Da Boss wrote: I don't see the UK losing it's security council seat. Obama might not be the UK's biggest fan, but he's going to want to keep allies and culturally similar powers on the security council. I think the French would be the same.
Though with all the Eurosceptic xenophobic rhetoric floating around england, maybe they'd be fed up enough to change their minds
It'll be interesting, whatever happens. I think the Troubles are stirring again anyway, RIRA members have been caught spying on the Garda Special Branch members, huge numbers of pipe bombs have been planted in dublin since the Queen's visit, and the RIRA are engaged in a full on gang war for control of the republic's drug trade. That's not even mentioning the continued attacks on british soldiers in the north, trouble at orange order parades getting worse year on year and the rise of Sinn Féin on both sides of the border.
I think it'll even out, because I reckon this can all be explained by pissed off people in a tough economic situation becoming militant, but yeah. The devolution or independence of scotland will probably have knock on effects beyond what anyone expects.
Attacks on the Orange Order aren't anything new. It seems worse because they (the Orangemen) keep getting bolder and more aggressive. (Not ness. violent aggressive) Hell they even applied for a permit to march through Dublin this summer.
Not to drag this off topic, but the Orange Order have already marched through dublin, albiet under the guise of the "love ulster" parade a few years back. There was a minor riot (the council thoughtfully left a load of cobblestones ready to be put down along the parade route, bless their hearts). However, it seems to me that the violence at the marches and the general ill feeling on both sides is escalating these last couple of years. I put it down to more bored unemployed people in the areas the marches generally happen in. Sinn Féin offices have been firebombed in dublin, and explosive devices have been found near them. A very large viable device was found a few months ago on an island in the Phoenix Park. I guess the only comforting thing to draw from all of this is that the RIRA don't seem to be that competent.
If it was down to me, I'd ban the whole bloody thing. We'd always get Northerners down our way in the summer, just wanting to get away from all that madness.
Ban the Orange Order or ban the Troubles?
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Palindrome wrote: Scotland was a distinct nation for 900 years, 3 times longer than it has been part of the UK. How long was New Hampshire its own nation?
Well, 300 years is more than enough time for something to be beyond even the longest lived person's great, great grand father's memory. Kind of like saying much of the UK as once conquered by people from Scandinavia so we should be ruled from Helsinki.
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Castiel wrote: But you are seriously trying to tell me that Glasgow City Council are discriminating agaist English-speaking people?
Maybe they just can't understand the accent
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/16 20:06:45
SilverMK2 wrote: Kind of like saying much of the UK as once conquered by people from Scandinavia so we should be ruled from Helsinki.
Oslo if anything.
A long national history can't fail to breed a sense of national identity. Simply because key events are well beyond living memory really makes little difference.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
whembly wrote: I guess what I'm driving at is that if Scotland secedes from the the Union, what's going to stop the rest of the states from doing the same thing?
That's like if New Hampshire secede from the US. While, it won't be "damaging" per se... but what's going to stop Texas or California from going independent? They're their own country practically and THAT be quite damaging to the Union.
Its a bit more complex than that
Scotland was a distinct nation for 900 years, 3 times longer than it has been part of the UK. How long was New Hampshire its own nation?
Natives crossed the land bridge, what? 150 thousand years ago? Scotland wasn't a distinct nation for 900 years, distinct nations (other than china, even that's contentious) haven't even been around for that long. Nationalism and border and culture driven statehood aren't native concepts to humans. For that 900 years Scotland was a series of feudal and sub feudal factions composed predominantly of agrarian farmers
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/16 20:34:26
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Natives crossed the land bridge, what? 150 thousand years ago? Scotland wasn't a distinct nation for 900 years, distinct nations (other than china, even that's contentious) haven't even been around for that long. Nationalism and border and culture driven statehood aren't native concepts to humans. For that 900 years Scotland was a series of feudal and sub feudal factions composed predominantly of agrarian farmers
When we are talking about national mythology how much do you think that matters? When people take braveheart at face value they are not likely to be interested in the realities of feudal politics.
You are also too dismissive of the impact that a sense of nationality played in the medieval period. It was nothing like modern nationalism to be sure but it can't be dismissed out of hand.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/16 21:11:33
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
Palindrome wrote: When we are talking about national mythology how much do you think that matters? When people take braveheart at face value they are not likely to be interested in the realities of feudal politics.
You are also too dismissive of the impact that a sense of nationality played in the medieval period. It was nothing like modern nationalism to be sure but it can't be dismissed out of hand.
I thought that 900 years of history was important in shaping nationality, but apparently a crappy Mel Gibson film is more important
Natives crossed the land bridge, what? 150 thousand years ago? Scotland wasn't a distinct nation for 900 years, distinct nations (other than china, even that's contentious) haven't even been around for that long. Nationalism and border and culture driven statehood aren't native concepts to humans. For that 900 years Scotland was a series of feudal and sub feudal factions composed predominantly of agrarian farmers
When we are talking about national mythology how much do you think that matters? When people take braveheart at face value they are not likely to be interested in the realities of feudal politics.
You are also too dismissive of the impact that a sense of nationality played in the medieval period. It was nothing like modern nationalism to be sure but it can't be dismissed out of hand.
So now the history doesn't matter, just the modern pointless nationalism associated with bad hollywood films? Cute. This really doesn't sound very "complex". The word "juvenile" seems more accurate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/16 21:27:54
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Natives crossed the land bridge, what? 150 thousand years ago? Scotland wasn't a distinct nation for 900 years, distinct nations (other than china, even that's contentious) haven't even been around for that long. Nationalism and border and culture driven statehood aren't native concepts to humans. For that 900 years Scotland was a series of feudal and sub feudal factions composed predominantly of agrarian farmers
When we are talking about national mythology how much do you think that matters? When people take braveheart at face value they are not likely to be interested in the realities of feudal politics.
You are also too dismissive of the impact that a sense of nationality played in the medieval period. It was nothing like modern nationalism to be sure but it can't be dismissed out of hand.
So now the history doesn't matter, just the modern pointless nationalism associated with bad hollywood films? Cute. This really doesn't sound very "complex". The word "juvenile" seems more accurate.
Don't be daft. The Scots fought for independence for many years. They just got their butts kicked so long ago its less an issue than say the Irish. I knew a Scot here and he still resented the English thing.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Natives crossed the land bridge, what? 150 thousand years ago? Scotland wasn't a distinct nation for 900 years, distinct nations (other than china, even that's contentious) haven't even been around for that long. Nationalism and border and culture driven statehood aren't native concepts to humans. For that 900 years Scotland was a series of feudal and sub feudal factions composed predominantly of agrarian farmers
When we are talking about national mythology how much do you think that matters? When people take braveheart at face value they are not likely to be interested in the realities of feudal politics.
You are also too dismissive of the impact that a sense of nationality played in the medieval period. It was nothing like modern nationalism to be sure but it can't be dismissed out of hand.
So now the history doesn't matter, just the modern pointless nationalism associated with bad hollywood films? Cute. This really doesn't sound very "complex". The word "juvenile" seems more accurate.
Don't be daft. The Scots fought for independence for many years. They just got their butts kicked so long ago its less an issue than say the Irish. I knew a Scot here and he still resented the English thing.
I know people that resent the U.S. civil war. They're giant children. To actively work against your own interests and the interest of your countrymen to fulfil some sort of pathetic sense of long lost national identity, that once gained, will probably be battered by the inevitable collapse of their economy and social ideals is dumb.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/16 21:44:21
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Frazzled wrote: Don't be daft. The Scots fought for independence for many years. They just got their butts kicked so long ago its less an issue than say the Irish. I knew a Scot here and he still resented the English thing.
I think you'll find that we won! And then our King, approx 300 years after The Wars of Independence, was asked to become King of Engerland after Elizabeth the First popped her clogs leaving him as her closest heir, leading to the Union of the Crowns, wherein the two countries would remain as sovereign states, until the Acts of Union in, IIRC, 1707.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/16 22:22:14
She didn't pop her clogs, she fired them like ICBMs into the Spanish Armada causing untold devastation. Exhausted by this effort, she went into her hibernation chamber until England requires her again. A figurehead was required to rule for the rest of her reign, controlled by mind impulses.
Also I still can't believe Scotland is even trying this, but ok.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/16 22:38:06
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
So now the history doesn't matter, just the modern pointless nationalism associated with bad hollywood films? Cute. This really doesn't sound very "complex". The word "juvenile" seems more accurate.
Its the way of the world. I never said that history doesn't matter, just that the man in the street tends to get his history from popular culture. If I was to ask 100 people to draw one of William Wallace's soldiers nearly all of them would draw someone in a kilt with a blue face waving a claidhmor, this would have been the case even before Braveheart.. National identity is almost wholly derived from an idealised and mostly mythical view of history, thats the same the world over.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/16 22:43:19
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
whembly wrote: I guess what I'm driving at is that if Scotland secedes from the the Union, what's going to stop the rest of the states from doing the same thing?
That's like if New Hampshire secede from the US. While, it won't be "damaging" per se... but what's going to stop Texas or California from going independent? They're their own country practically and THAT be quite damaging to the Union.
Its a bit more complex than that
Scotland was a distinct nation for 900 years, 3 times longer than it has been part of the UK. How long was New Hampshire its own nation?
Natives crossed the land bridge, what? 150 thousand years ago? Scotland wasn't a distinct nation for 900 years, distinct nations (other than china, even that's contentious) haven't even been around for that long.
Erm, yes they have. England was founded as a nation over 1000 years ago, man.
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Grey Templar wrote: No, it doesn't matter to me or anyone else on a personal level. But it will matter to those in politics.
I'm sure this isn't true of all of them, but from what I have seen of british politicians is that they consider the UK to still be an important world power. Almost as if they have a tradition to uphold. Maybe a couple hundred years of being the most powerful country in the world gives you a big head.
No, it's more that the UK is one of the wealthiest and most militarily powerful nations on earth. Stuff like that.
The UK sends soldiers all over the world as if they are still a major player, but I don't believe they are. Again, this is my personal opinion and take on the situation.
Your personal take and opinion on the matter is wrong. Whether you believe it or not doesn't really count for much. By any reasonable metric, a country as wealthy, technologically advanced and militarily capable as the United Kingdom has to be taken seriously in terms of world influence. Y'know, it feels churlish and somewhat self-aggrandising to point that out, pathetic almost. We don't tend to go in for all that gak anymore. The problem is, certain particularly ignorant Americans seem to have this moronic idea that any country not as rich or powerful as the USA basically has no influence on world affairs. Unfortunately, that's all of them, and the (again, moronic) idea that 'if you're not first, you're last' doesn't apply to global politics. Get a clue.
Frankly, I would consider France to be a bigger player then the UK at this point. I forsee a steady decline in the UK's overall importance in the next century.
That's blatantly not based on anything other than your own ignorance and prejudice.
No offense intended
Oh, perish the thought!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/17 00:03:18
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Scotland was definitly a distinct nation prior to being conquored by the English.
They may not have had a strong monarchy or government for most of the time, but they had a distinct culture and sense of national identity. Their culture was tribal for a very long time and the king was really just a title that meant little unless there was an outside threat.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Take your tinfoil hat and crazy conspiracy theories and keep walking, if you please!
I know the person involved, I visited him in Paisley. I heard from him about it happening to others.
You yourself said you saw the anglophobia. Are you telling me that all those in local government are inherently honest and free from racial bias. Can you tell me that of the bigots you came across none of them could ever get a job in a council department. Can you think of what one might behave like if one did.
Don't be daft. The Scots fought for independence for many years. They just got their butts kicked so long ago its less an issue than say the Irish. I knew a Scot here and he still resented the English thing.
You might be interested to know there were more Scottish invasions of England than English invasions of Scotland by a considerable margin. Usually attacking when the French made war on us, which the Frenchies often did. While most never got past Northumbria some marched a long way into England and threatened major cities.
The English were usually better at it though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/17 00:44:11
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
I know the person involved, I visited him in Paisley. I heard from him about it happening to others.
Ah Paisley, there's your problem right there. Nothing's really went right for that city since the invention of Paisley pattern, although it is a damned fine pattern. I'd imagine the council are quite bitter as their city was killed off by a large retail outlet in Glasgow that bordered the Renfrewshire area.
It's was really nice place at one point, still has some fabulous architecture. It's a shame what it's become.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisley
Frazzled wrote: Don't be daft. The Scots fought for independence for many years. They just got their butts kicked so long ago its less an issue than say the Irish. I knew a Scot here and he still resented the English thing.
I think you'll find that we won! And then our King, approx 300 years after The Wars of Independence, was asked to become King of Engerland after Elizabeth the First popped her clogs leaving him as her closest heir, leading to the Union of the Crowns, wherein the two countries would remain as sovereign states, until the Acts of Union in, IIRC, 1707.
Whats awesome is that I have no idea what any of that means. Vive Le Republique. Or as the ancient bard once said:
You might be interested to know there were more Scottish invasions of England than English invasions of Scotland by a considerable margin. Usually attacking when the French made war on us, which the Frenchies often did. While most never got past Northumbria some marched a long way into England and threatened major cities.
The English were usually better at it though.
Well there's your problem right there. They relied on the French....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/17 01:14:24
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
You might be interested to know there were more Scottish invasions of England than English invasions of Scotland by a considerable margin. Usually attacking when the French made war on us, which the Frenchies often did. While most never got past Northumbria some marched a long way into England and threatened major cities.
The English were usually better at it though.
Well there's your problem right there. They relied on the French....
Never a good idea.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
AustonT wrote: New York needs us a hell of a lot more than we need New York, Unlike California which has an actual economy NYC is dependent on the national economy to work.
Sort of. I mean, food doesn't stop being traded just because someone became their own nation.
The issue is more about how much New York is likely to remain a centre of finance and trade once its no longer part of that nation - would new regulations emerge that would make it less desirable than, say Chicago?
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Grey Templar wrote: California could easily be self sufficient, however politicians keep spending too much money.
Not really. The issue is more the combination of voter mandates capping certain tax revenues, combined with other voter led mandates requiring certain expenditures.
California is basically the classic example of why direct democracy is stupid.
That's not even a little bit true. California pays way more in federal taxes than it gets back. Bucking a 20 year pattern, in 2008 and 2009, thanks to stimulus programs, California just received more than it paid, before quickly returning to form in 2011.
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AustonT wrote: Sorry it took so long I laughed so hard I nearly suffocated. That must be why it's so cheap to live in new York. Tell me about New Yorks ability to get natural gas and oil cheaply too. You live in a fantasy world if you think New York could become independent and thrive. It would be the New Detroit.
I think it's hilarious that you think the success of a finance and trade based economy is dependant on cheap food and gas, to be perfectly blunt.
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Testify wrote: The government of the UK also has no control over interest rates. They are determined by the independent Bank of England. I think it would be VERY unusual where Scottish fiscal policy would need to be radically different from English fiscal policy, given how similar our economies are.
Government sets the objectives for the Bank to achieve though. Although governments are loathe to touch Bank objectives (thanks to unhappy memories of the 70s) it is possible for a government to, say, shift target inflation from a band of 3% to 5% to a band of 4% to 6%, and at the same time emphasise the Bank is to give equal priority to unemployment as it does to inflation.
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Frazzled wrote: Minimum voting age should be 30, and proof made that you have a basic understanding of economics...
A basic understanding of economics is more dangerous than complete ignorance of economics, as dakka has proven countless times.
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Grey Templar wrote: Frankly, I think being on the security council is the only thing keeping the UK relevant on the world stage. Their role as a financial capital is getting eroded year by year and they havn't been a major military power for the better half of a century.
So you never read anything about London as an international financial centre, but figured you'd just like to make comment anyway?
Also, the UK is fourth in the world for military power. Don't confuse the US overwhelming superiority to everyone else with the idea that no-one else matters.
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Orlanth wrote: If Salmond and Cameron are publically known to have discussed this threat I cannot dismiss it as that unlikely an eventuality. If Romney gets in it wont happen, with Obama I am not so sure. He will get the opportunity to stick the knife in deep, and allowing for what her thinks of the UK I wouldn't be surprised if he does that.
The gakety gakpants what?
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mattyrm wrote: Britain hasnt been a major power for 50 years, and never will be again.. but so what? Why should that bother anyone? And how does one affect the other?
Of course the UK is a major power. It isn't a hyperpower, like the US is, but that doesn't mean it isn't a major player on the world stage.
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Grey Templar wrote: The UK sends soldiers all over the world as if they are still a major player, but I don't believe they are. Again, this is my personal opinion and take on the situation.
Economically and militarily the UK is among the most powerful countries in the world. This just a basic fact of numbers.
Frankly, I would consider France to be a bigger player then the UK at this point. I forsee a steady decline in the UK's overall importance in the next century.
Based on what, exactly?
The two countries are, and have been for some time, pretty much on par. Outside of something quite remarkable this is very unlikely to change.
The situations where they are involved are mearly the dying gasps of a world power long since fallen from power and relevance.
No offense intended
I expect you'll get more bemusement than offence. I honestly just don't know what drives you to start making this vague world predictions based on vague emotions, without ever bothering to look at the basic numbers that dicate nation's world standings.
It seems a very American thing. I think we should call it Tom Clancy syndrome.
Yes, but it's outcome dicated the make up of the permanent security council, and that make up has remain unchanged.
Thing is, France being given permanent security status, despite being routed early in the war, and fielding armies taken largely from North African colonies equipped with US gear later in the war... is a strange quirk of history.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2012/10/17 04:28:41
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Grey Templar wrote: Scotland was definitly a distinct nation prior to being conquored by the English.
Scotland was a distinct nation, but we were not conquered by England, as I explained previously.
Frazzled wrote: Whats awesome is that I have no idea what any of that means. Vive Le Republique.
Simplified version, to save Wikipediaing:
Scotland wins the War of Independence in 1314, when Robert the Bruce defeats an English army up to 2 or 3 times the size of his own. In the 1600s one of our kings is asked to be King of England as well, although it is agreed that both countries will remain separate and distinct countries, known as the Union of the Crowns. This continues until 1707, when the Acts of Union joined Scotland and England into one big united kingdom called Great Britain.
Then what are the Scots yapping about? SOunds like the union was voluntary.
In the words of that great Pacifist William Tecumseh Sherman "You want to secede I'll burn every house, torch every field, slaughter every pig, and bend every train rail that you own."
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote: Then what are the Scots yapping about? SOunds like the union was voluntary.
In the words of that great Pacifist William Tecumseh Sherman "You want to secede I'll burn every house, torch every field, slaughter every pig, and bend every train rail that you own."
It was, its just that the Nationalists watched too much Braveheart as kids, and now can't hear an English accent without wanting to jump into their kilts, paint their faces blue and chase the English out of Scotland once more, while waving claymores and screaming "Freedom!".
It was, its just that the Nationalists watched too much Braveheart as kids, and now can't hear an English accent without wanting to jump into their kilts, paint their faces blue and chase the English out of Scotland once more, while waving claymores and screaming "Freedom!".
On the flip side,. that sounds like good wholesome family fun.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
It was, its just that the Nationalists watched too much Braveheart as kids, and now can't hear an English accent without wanting to jump into their kilts, paint their faces blue and chase the English out of Scotland once more, while waving claymores and screaming "Freedom!".
On the flip side,. that sounds like good wholesome family fun.
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