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Trying different Noise Marine Combos here:


6 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 5 Sonic Blasters, Icon, Rhino) - 207

10 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 1 BlastMaster, Rhino) - 260

8 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 4 Sonic Basters, Rhino) - 208

and thoughts on a Build for this unit? That is cost effective?

Don't waste points on sonic weapons other than the doom siren. GW has yet to get the combination of rules and costs right to make sonic blasters a good choice--this has been true since 3rd edition.

The salvo rule now nerfs sonic blasters by by reducing the range to 12" when you move. If you want to kill guys in cover, you're better off assaulting them--noise marines do much more damage in assault point-for-point than they would with sonic blasters.

If you could get a blastmaster in a unit of 5 noise marines, it would be worthwhile (as it was in 4th edition). But having nine 17 point guys standing around so that you can get a single str8 small blast is a huge waste of points.

Noise marines have always been worth taking as assault troops, though, because you get a fearless I5 guy with power armor for only slightly more than a regular CSM.

So for assault you need 10+ guys with bp/ccw and a doom siren champ with some kind of weapon. If you take 15+, probably a good idea to give them FNP so they'll make it across the board.

No, MAYBE, no.

10+ Noise Marines with Sonic blasters and blastmaster(s) infiltrated by Arhiman or Horun depending on army to the center of board on an objective where they will not move again with a FNP Icon.

Creates a 24 non meq killzone and can put a lot of shots into msu meq.

Why do you want CC Noise Marines... How are these any better (other then fearless, and access to doom siren) then a regular troop squad with MoS and IoE? Who are 2 points per model cheaper. I've been running a squad of regular marines with MoS and a MoS Sorc in there at a strength of 15 or so. Rips other squads to bits. Sorc has force Axe, Champ has power sword. Especially when you get +1 strength or +1 attack from the psychic power..

 jegsar wrote:

Why do you want CC Noise Marines... How are these any better (other then fearless, and access to doom siren) then a regular troop squad with MoS and IoE? Who are 2 points per model cheaper.

I'm glad you asked that question because I was thinking about that earlier.

First, they're not 2 points cheaper because the icon of vengeance increases the cost of the unit and negates most of that difference.

10 noise marines = 180 points
10 CSM with MoS and fearless icon = 185 points

The noise marines are actually cheaper until you get up to about 15 models, and then the difference is still only a few points.

Secondly, the CSM are only fearless until the guy with the icon dies. Even if you're an expert at wound allocation, precision strikes from characters--shooting or close combat--can still take him out.

And thirdly, you can give the noise marines FnP if you want.

It's nice to have access to meltaguns, but noise marines are better assault units than CSM.

Siren can be handy if you assault but basic marines are troops.

Slaanesh lord doesn't seem that useful but sorceror on the hand is.

I might go with 2x10 bolter marines (bare bones and if I have left over points I'll pick some toys)

and a squad of assault noise marines and 2 sorceror to play wannabe eldar.

Deamon allies with masque and slaanesh chariots.

On foot I'd think I rather have bolters than CCW, 6th makes them much more attractive.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Siren can be handy if you assault but basic marines are troops.

Slaanesh lord doesn't seem that useful but sorceror on the hand is.

I'm assuming a Slaanesh lord here. Why would the OP be asking if he didn't intend them to be troops?

The most popular and useful Slaanesh lord builds I'm hearing about currently have him on a bike or steed with the Burning Brand and some kind of power weapon or lighting claws. If he's on a bike, he goes with a unit of other bikes that have the icon of excess. If he's on a steed, he outflanks on his own or with spawns for a backfield AP3 template alphastrike.

 Jackster wrote:
On foot I'd think I rather have bolters than CCW, 6th makes them much more attractive.

While this isn't a bad way to go, there's no reason to pay the extra points for Noise Marines for I5. Just stick with a normal unit, that counts as Troops without having to take a Lord too.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Jackster wrote:
On foot I'd think I rather have bolters than CCW, 6th makes them much more attractive.

While this isn't a bad way to go, there's no reason to pay the extra points for Noise Marines for I5. Just stick with a normal unit, that counts as Troops without having to take a Lord too.

True, you are better off taking Huron to get them into range fast.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Jackster wrote:
On foot I'd think I rather have bolters than CCW, 6th makes them much more attractive.

While this isn't a bad way to go, there's no reason to pay the extra points for Noise Marines for I5. Just stick with a normal unit, that counts as Troops without having to take a Lord too.

Are we all playing the same game?

A I5 guy with a bp & ccw gets 3 attacks on the charge and goes *before space marines* thus reducing the number of attacks they get back. If he has VotLW, he gets rerolls. If he's fearless, the whole unit has to be killed down to the last man before the combat ends.

A I4 guy with a boltgun gets 2 attacks on the charge and will have to eat all the space marine I4 attacks back. Lose a round of combat, botch a leadership test, and your whole unit can get swept out of existence.

So which one is a better assault unit?

Besides, IIRC the OP was asking about noise marines.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Jackster wrote:
On foot I'd think I rather have bolters than CCW, 6th makes them much more attractive.

While this isn't a bad way to go, there's no reason to pay the extra points for Noise Marines for I5. Just stick with a normal unit, that counts as Troops without having to take a Lord too.

Are we all playing the same game?

A I5 guy with a bp & ccw gets 3 attacks on the charge and goes *before space marines* thus reducing the number of attacks they get back. If he has VotLW, he gets rerolls. If he's fearless, the whole unit has to be killed down to the last man before the combat ends.

A I4 guy with a boltgun gets 2 attacks on the charge and will have to eat all the space marine I4 attacks back. Lose a round of combat, botch a leadership test, and your whole unit can get swept out of existence.

So which one is a better assault unit?

Besides, IIRC the OP was asking about noise marines.

Noise Marines are fine, just don't buy the worthless sonic blasters, they can't really move and shoot and they also can't shoot then assault. So what good are the sonic blasters exactly? Blastmaster is fairly worthless too as you have to pay a huge tax in extra bodies to take one, and with that many bodies you probably want to assault with them.

I'd take MSU with a doom siren and make them a cheap throw away assault squad. But only if you took a slaanesh lord. I don't think they are fieldable as elites. Then again a slaanesh lord would go nice with a unit of slaanesh bikers or terminators so you aren't gimping yourself by taking one.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Jackster wrote:
On foot I'd think I rather have bolters than CCW, 6th makes them much more attractive.

While this isn't a bad way to go, there's no reason to pay the extra points for Noise Marines for I5. Just stick with a normal unit, that counts as Troops without having to take a Lord too.

Are we all playing the same game?

A I5 guy with a bp & ccw gets 3 attacks on the charge and goes *before space marines* thus reducing the number of attacks they get back. If he has VotLW, he gets rerolls. If he's fearless, the whole unit has to be killed down to the last man before the combat ends.

A I4 guy with a boltgun gets 2 attacks on the charge and will have to eat all the space marine I4 attacks back. Lose a round of combat, botch a leadership test, and your whole unit can get swept out of existence.

So which one is a better assault unit?

Besides, IIRC the OP was asking about noise marines.

If you have bolters, why are you charging into a superior CC opponent? If you give them MoS, you Rapid fire, overwatch if they charge you and then they still go at I5.
I'd concede this is somewhat off topic though.

I'm with Flavius. Maybe I should break out and finish painting my old Emperor's Children army from 3rd...

I've been testing an Emp's children list and the troops choices i've been testing are:

10 Marines
MoS, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, CCW, Icon of Excess and 2 Flamers.
Champion has Power Sword. Veterans.
Rhino.
Havoc Launcher.

10 Noise Marines
Boltgun, BP, CCW, Icon of Excess.
Champion has Power Sword and Doom Siren.
Veterans.
Rhino.
Havoc Launcher.

and finally...

12 Noise Marines
CCW, Icon of Excess, 10 Sonic Blasters, 1 Blastmaster.
Champion has Doom Siren, Sonic Blaster and Power Sword.
Veterans.


Results

The first squad is amazing. They can disembark, shoot and then wait for a charge. So far, the charging units have suffered big casualties from overwatch and the unit clears up efficiently in their opponents turn. Very happy with this unit.

Second squad has been mediocre. While the Doom Siren has been great against units of MEQ, the unit suffers against Hordes as it lacks the additional flamer.

Third squad has been great, if a little expensive. They form a firebase in the middle of the board and they have really made a difference giving supporting fire to other units. In large games I've taken two of these and they have ripped apart units in the shooting phase. Their unit has held well as objective takers and they can really bring the hurt. Only two downsides - cost and they can't assault after shooting. biggest upside is that they are a mega effective firebase.

The best combination I've found at 1850 is one (two if you can push it) large firebase units of Noise Marines and two units of first squad.

Final verdict:

Noise Marines are not worth it in multiple squads. Standard csm squads with the trimmings are better and are more cost effective for the punch they can bring.

Noise Marines as large firebases are killer. These things can really bring the pain against units of infantry. The extra shot from the Sonic Blasters at salvo 3 is great, but the unit has to be large for it to make a difference.

So for assault you need 10+ guys with bp/ccw and a doom siren champ with some kind of weapon. If you take 15+, probably a good idea to give them FNP so they'll make it across the board.

Flavius is right here. Sonic blasters and blastmasters are not effective enough. On the other hand, a NM squad with doom siren, cc weapons, Champ with power weapon and melta bombs, mounted in a Rhino could be worth it.

Puscifer wrote:
While the Doom Siren has been great against units of MEQ, the unit suffers against Hordes as it lacks the additional flamer.
.

Usually when I play noise marine assault units, there's a character in there with the second doom siren. Your chaos lord (or Lucius) has to go somewhere, and he's got a doom siren, so at least one unit will have two.

A little off-topic, but this is also one thing that makes Slaanesh bikers especially good. You get the doom siren option for the bike champion, so with the doom siren character on a bike joined to the unit that allows you to get the versatility of meltas on the bikes as special weapons while not sacrificing your two flamer templates.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
While the Doom Siren has been great against units of MEQ, the unit suffers against Hordes as it lacks the additional flamer.
.

Usually when I play noise marine assault units, there's a character in there with the second doom siren. Your chaos lord (or Lucius) has to go somewhere, and he's got a doom siren, so at least one unit will have two.

A little off-topic, but this is also one thing that makes Slaanesh bikers especially good. You get the doom siren option for the bike champion, so with the doom siren character on a bike joined to the unit that allows you to get the versatility of meltas on the bikes as special weapons while not sacrificing your two flamer templates.

Does a Lord with MoS have access to a doom siren? I don't have the codex with me. But he could get burning brand which is almost equally good.

No Doom Siren, just the Brand.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 jegsar wrote:

Why do you want CC Noise Marines... How are these any better (other then fearless, and access to doom siren) then a regular troop squad with MoS and IoE? Who are 2 points per model cheaper.

I'm glad you asked that question because I was thinking about that earlier.

First, they're not 2 points cheaper because the icon of vengeance increases the cost of the unit and negates most of that difference.

10 noise marines = 180 points
10 CSM with MoS and fearless icon = 185 points

The noise marines are actually cheaper until you get up to about 15 models, and then the difference is still only a few points.

Secondly, the CSM are only fearless until the guy with the icon dies. Even if you're an expert at wound allocation, precision strikes from characters--shooting or close combat--can still take him out.

And thirdly, you can give the noise marines FnP if you want.

It's nice to have access to meltaguns, but noise marines are better assault units than CSM.

Actually i added up points differently, and I was assuming about 15 but lets look at 10.

NM total 220
10 NM base = 180
VotLW=190
IoE=220
Armed with BP and CC

Regular marines "(other then fearless, and access to doom siren)" like i originally said is.. 200
10 CSM base = 140
VotLW = 150
MoS = 170
IoE = 200

Is 20 points worth it for fearless, if you are playing with a MoS lord then MAYBE.
so far my squad of 13+Sorc charged wraiths and a destroyer lord... 1 wraith survived with 1 wound, which he then lost on this turn and as they will win most combats anyway and are LD10.

It's 2 points cheaper per model, or you can give them fearless for 2 points per model by upgrading them to Noise Marines if you are taking a Lord of S.

Now if you want a 3 bolter shot at 24" models to be infiltrated (via Huron or Ahriman) then NM are worth it.

Puscifer wrote:
No Doom Siren, just the Brand.

Awww, man. Bummer. My bad. I was thinking that was unchanged from the previous version.

But it does solve my problem of trying to decide how to work in the burning brand.

Lucius has a doom siren, though. Just noticed that this morning. His cost is comparable with most of the chaos lords I've been looking at anyway.

Lucious is good, fun, and a fluffy bunny

 jegsar wrote:
... they will win most combats anyway and are LD10.

It's 2 points cheaper per model, or you can give them fearless for 2 points per model by upgrading them to Noise Marines if you are taking a Lord of S.

I'm just going on record saying that fearless troops are always worth a few points more for assault units. Ld 10 is fine until your huge expensive unit gets caught by a dreadknight or wraithlord who kills your character in an unrefusable challenge, then sweeps you out of existence on a single botched Ld test.

You never fail a leadership test when you don't take them.

Unless the opponent has Terrify... damn that's a great spell.

Being fearless is all well and good, but if you have a limit on points, you have to go with what is efficient at killing your opponents goons. I just don't think msu nm are going to cut it.

Larger, cheaper squads that do practically the same thing will be better. Is fearless good? Yes. Is it worth taking a fearless unit that is more points over a squad that is cheaper and does the same thing but is not fearless? I don't think so.

On the note of a hq choice Lucius is great. He murders units and is great in challenges. Fabius is fantastic for his enhanced warriors and you cant go wrong with a 'Doomrider' lord with the Brand or a Sorcerer on a bike with the Brand.

Lots of choices, all efficient.

Thulsa Doom wrote:
Trying different Noise Marine Combos here:


6 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 5 Sonic Blasters, Icon, Rhino) - 207

10 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 1 BlastMaster, Rhino) - 260

8 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 4 Sonic Basters, Rhino) - 208

and thoughts on a Build for this unit? That is cost effective?

Why is you think the Icon is best placed on the smallest unit only, where it gives the least returns?

I personally don't like any of those configs, as there is a conflict of roles in each. The first as explained above is trying to stay alive but is not taking enough numbers, the second is trying to work at a distance but has a gun with an 8" range in it, and the last is in conflict with itself over whether it is a static or dynamic unit.

The only two configs I would take are 10 dudes with Blasters and a Blastmaster in a Rhino (static supression), or 5 dudes with Doom Siren in a Rhino (Blasters optional, used to suicide run to clear objectives).

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Thulsa Doom wrote:
Trying different Noise Marine Combos here:


6 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 5 Sonic Blasters, Icon, Rhino) - 207

10 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 1 BlastMaster, Rhino) - 260

8 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 4 Sonic Basters, Rhino) - 208

and thoughts on a Build for this unit? That is cost effective?

Why is you think the Icon is best placed on the smallest unit only, where it gives the least returns?

I personally don't like any of those configs, as there is a conflict of roles in each. The first as explained above is trying to stay alive but is not taking enough numbers, the second is trying to work at a distance but has a gun with an 8" range in it, and the last is in conflict with itself over whether it is a static or dynamic unit.

The only two configs I would take are 10 dudes with Blasters and a Blastmaster in a Rhino (static supression), or 5 dudes with Doom Siren in a Rhino (Blasters optional, used to suicide run to clear objectives).

Totally agree with you on the 10 NM build you have suggested, but the suicide squad is a total waste of points and you will see a very poor return from your investment. Units that small will just get wiped out very quickly.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I'm just going on record saying that fearless troops are always worth a few points more for assault units. Ld 10 is fine until your huge expensive unit gets caught by a dreadknight or wraithlord who kills your character in an unrefusable challenge, then sweeps you out of existence on a single botched Ld test.

You never fail a leadership test when you don't take them.

This is a double-edged sword. Let's say that big nasty charges and knocks out the one Fist in your squad. If the unit is Fearless and doesn't have any other weapons that can hurt that nasty, they can't run away, they're stuck there until they get squished.
I realise this is much less valid with krak grenades, but there are still some enemies that even they can't touch.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I'm just going on record saying that fearless troops are always worth a few points more for assault units. Ld 10 is fine until your huge expensive unit gets caught by a dreadknight or wraithlord who kills your character in an unrefusable challenge, then sweeps you out of existence on a single botched Ld test.

You never fail a leadership test when you don't take them.

This is a double-edged sword. Let's say that big nasty charges and knocks out the one Fist in your squad. If the unit is Fearless and doesn't have any other weapons that can hurt that nasty, they can't run away, they're stuck there until they get squished.
I realise this is much less valid with krak grenades, but there are still some enemies that even they can't touch.

^ This.

If Mr Bloodthirster, Avatar or Dread Knight yoink out your Power Fist Guy (which you shouldn't have on an I5 guy anyway), your 200 point+ unit is borked.

I've noticed a trend with the Cult Units. With the exception of Plague Marines, all the other Cult Units tend to be better when taken as 1 or 2 units and not an entire army.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
No Doom Siren, just the Brand.

Awww, man. Bummer. My bad. I was thinking that was unchanged from the previous version.

Why does everything think lords could take doom sirens in 4th? They only could in 3.5

I've been wondering about outflanking a sonic squad (10 with blastmaster and doomsiren) with a lord on a steed, anyone got any thoughts to an outflanked noise marine unit.

Puscifer wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Thulsa Doom wrote:
Trying different Noise Marine Combos here:


6 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 5 Sonic Blasters, Icon, Rhino) - 207

10 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 1 BlastMaster, Rhino) - 260

8 Noise Marines - (Champ w/ Siren, 4 Sonic Basters, Rhino) - 208

and thoughts on a Build for this unit? That is cost effective?

Why is you think the Icon is best placed on the smallest unit only, where it gives the least returns?

I personally don't like any of those configs, as there is a conflict of roles in each. The first as explained above is trying to stay alive but is not taking enough numbers, the second is trying to work at a distance but has a gun with an 8" range in it, and the last is in conflict with itself over whether it is a static or dynamic unit.

The only two configs I would take are 10 dudes with Blasters and a Blastmaster in a Rhino (static supression), or 5 dudes with Doom Siren in a Rhino (Blasters optional, used to suicide run to clear objectives).

Totally agree with you on the 10 NM build you have suggested, but the suicide squad is a total waste of points and you will see a very poor return from your investment. Units that small will just get wiped out very quickly.

Aside from having to pop the Rhino first before they can even touch them, and with first turn they can be almost in position already, this is simply not true. MSU is still incredibly popular on the tournament scene, and is still winning tournaments all over the world, something that wouldn't be possible if small units died as easily as you say. They are easy to kill, but it takes some dedicated firepower.

Plus there's two more important things here; suicide squads are meant to die, you are not meant to care it they die, and if the opponent is dedicating fire to killing them, then its not going into something more valuable to you. Secondly, and more importantly, to be good at 40k you can't be afraid to lose units. If we were all the build our lists based only on units that are very hard to kill, there wouldn't be much in all of our armies, as 40k is a game of death where most things die easily enough on the grand scale of things.