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Vanilla Marines are the shootiest of all the Loyalist books. They bring the highest volume of long ranged (beyond 24") firepower out of any of the Loyalist books. In addition, they have the special rules to keep on shooting the enemy, the now-infamous duo of ATSKNF and Combat Tactics. They are better in combat compared to the rest of the shooty armies due to their Marine statline, but not as good in combat as assault armies. This Marine statline is what allows people to say that the book has versatility.


EDIT: Just because BA has the same options as Vanilla doesn't necessarily mean that they are just as good as Vanilla. BA is actually weaker in shooting compared to Vanilla because of the 6th ed changes: Razorspam is effectively dead, and the importance of flyers forces BA to spend their points on Stormravens. BA also have to pay more to get fast vehicles, and 6th reduced the power of Fast vehicles by giving all vehicles their base capabilities (Getting a flat out move and being able to fire when moving 12").

Does your group allow FW? Because with the Badab characters you can tons of lists to play around with.

 Ailaros wrote:

But look at it practically. Yes, in theory BA have access to some of the same stuff, but that doesn't matter if it never actually happens. I can count the number of times I've seen a BA player field a lascannon land raider on zero fingers.

To be fair I've never seen a Codex Marine player field a lascannon Land Raider either, at least not since they got the option to take anything else.

The real question is what's the point of BA/SW/DA/BT codex's

 Harriticus wrote:
The real question is what's the point of BA/SW/DA/BT codex's

BA/SW not real sure. BT have the most customizable units in the Loyalist codexes, though I expect that to change as soon as the next codex comes out, and can field the biggest tac. squads. DA has one unique list left thanks to GK, the land speeder Ravenwing. I know most think of Raven wing as a bike list but it can field the most speeders of any codex.

 Lobukia wrote:
BTW: I'm still sure BT get rolled into C:SM instead of keeping their independent 'dex.

What makes you so sure? AFAIK there is more evidence against it than for it.

 Harriticus wrote:
The real question is what's the point of BA/SW/DA/BT codex's

Well, I would prefer one big, really customisable, marine codex that could be used by all loyalist chapters.

Functionally, if you're not going to be using the special fancy units, there's no difference between the Blood Angels book and the vanilla Marines book (all right, all right, Assault Marines as Troops, go look up Korvyde if you feel like using that with the regular book), so the difference between Blood Angels and vanilla Marines is whether you want to use the Blood Angels' selection of fancy special characters/Death Company or the vanilla Marines' book's selection. I'm less familiar with the Space Wolves, but as far as I can tell they replace most of the vanilla book's shooting units with assault units, so they can't field a shooty army nearly as effectively. Dark Angels are based on the old Space Marine book, so they suffer from much more expensive units; their competitive advantage comes from their ability to access Terminators as Troops with a fancy rule that makes Deep Strike more reliable.

In summary: Vanilla Marines do shooty infantry/Land Speeder/bike armies rather better than other books; Blood Angels and Space Wolves both do assault armies better than other books, and Dark Angels do their own unique brand of awesome Deep Strike army better than other books. So yes, there is a point to taking the vanilla book; most people just use the other books because they've got more shiny flashy stuff that looks awesome.

The vanilla book also has access to Korvyde, Chronus, Kantor, Shrike, Vulkan, and better Librarians if you're making your choices based off HQ units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One big, customizable Space Marine book would be better, of course. But then they'd have to bring back Doctrines for Guard, Legions for Chaos, Craftworlds for Eldar, and a whole host of other things that have fallen by the wayside over the years; I don't see it happening anytime soon with the recent shift towards determining what special organizational rules you get based on your HQ units.

Assualt marines are greta at cc when used with a Chaplin! Tac squads are a great multi role unit, and constatly under used. You can equip them with normal and heavy flamers, great in citys of death, heavy bolters (now there move n shoot), missiles ( fab against hords and armour), metla weapons, lass cannons, Plasma weapons, and your tac squad sgt can take melta bombs plus almost any weapon he likes the look off, including paower swords etc, making him good in cc.

For a fast moving close Combat SM army, take the min troop selcetion, which equates to one 10 man tac squad when broken down into combat squads. then use, assualt marines, terminators each with chaplins, Load termies into landraiders or deep strike them, use scouts in Landspeeder Storms' to get in amogst the enemy armour or inf units.

The good thong with SM is, no matter you want from your army, you can do it.

At the end of the day it comes down to dice lol. I had a lonley all by him self scout take out a sanguin squad. But the SM give you a good chance of tailoring your army for the task in hand.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Most of the time it involves the TH/SS terminators, land raiders, and predator tanks. One of the few things I still see Vanilla used for besides veterans is the use of actual tanks that aren't just razorspam (BA, GH)

I don't really see how that makes any sense given that BA have the same TH/SS and Land Raiders, as well as fast Predators and cheap (and better) assault marine Razorbacks that go well with those Predators instead of paying the tactical tax. What exactly does C:SM offer to this army concept that you can't get elsewhere?

BA TH/SS termies cost 5p more. C:SM can get master crafted TH with Vulcan. Null zone lets the opponent reroll invo saves. Landraider takes 12 guys instead of 10. Predator cost less. Sure, the razor + 5man assault squad spam is something the vanilla marines cant do but BA can. Otherwise I think the vanilla codex is really nice.

My friend play a Salamander army. Two TL MM dreads dropping in first turn with locator beacon. Later comes 5+5 TH/SS termies deep striking to mop up. Vulkan deep strikes with some tacticals in a pod. Two other tactical squads gives support + clam objectives. 3 Landspeeders with MM and Heavy flamers roams around killing whatever. (1750p)

This is a really good army with alot of melta + flamers. They deepstrike with pods and assault. This army does basicly everything that the OP said that vanilla marines was bad at.

 Godeth wrote:

The good thing with SM is, no matter you want from your army, you can do it.

No one has argued against this point. They've stated that the other codices can do it better whatever that "it" theme is.

I think this is why there is a vanilla codex - it's just the jack of all trades, compared to the more specialised chapter codices.

A 5pt cost increase in a model does not stop the codex from also performing that ability.

I personally use the standard Codex because I never have chosen a prebuilt chapter. I created my own codex chapter and find that the material presented there is much better for me since my chapter is not based off of any of the specific chapters mentioned by the original poster.

They need the codex space marine. If they didn't how would the other chapters look up to big brother ultra.

 Godeth wrote:
Assualt marines are greta at cc when used with a Chaplin! Tac squads are a great multi role unit, and constatly under used. You can equip them with normal and heavy flamers, great in citys of death, heavy bolters (now there move n shoot), missiles ( fab against hords and armour), metla weapons, lass cannons, Plasma weapons, and your tac squad sgt can take melta bombs plus almost any weapon he likes the look off, including paower swords etc, making him good in cc.

For a fast moving close Combat SM army, take the min troop selcetion, which equates to one 10 man tac squad when broken down into combat squads. then use, assualt marines, terminators each with chaplins, Load termies into landraiders or deep strike them, use scouts in Landspeeder Storms' to get in amogst the enemy armour or inf units.

The good thong with SM is, no matter you want from your army, you can do it.

At the end of the day it comes down to dice lol. I had a lonley all by him self scout take out a sanguin squad. But the SM give you a good chance of tailoring your army for the task in hand.

To borrow from The Princess Bride, you keep using the word great, “I don’t think that word means what you think it means.”

Assault Marines are not "great" in combat. They are adequate at best, and using a precious HQ choice to make them any better than that is wasted opportunity. Tactical squads are not a "great" multi-role unit. They are an adequate shooting squad, as long as their target lacks toughness and armour. They don't concentrate enough high strength fire for their points to be considered "great." They are an exceedingly poor assault unit, albeit one that generally takes a while to die. They also cannot take a heavy flamer, which actually would be a worthwhile option giving them a close support role (like tougher Battle Sisters). A single heavy weapon for nearly 200 points? I can get three Land Speeders for that.

A combat squadded Tactical squad is not a valid minimum troops choice. Thunder hammer terminators don't need a Chaplain, assault squads aren't made significantly better by a Chaplain. Land Raiders are a 250 point drain on your army selection, deep striking assault terminators will result in dead terminators if they're within assault range, and if they're not within assault range they'll never get into assault.

Scouts in Land Speeder Storms? So you're using a fast attack choice (so less assault marines) to get a five man scout squad into combat? I'm sure other armies are quaking in their boots. A statistical anomaly like a single scout beating Sanguinary Guard is not something I'd base an army on.

Space Marines are a good, mid tier army. They can do most things, but they do not do anything (other than bike armies, and that'll probably be changed when nuDark Angels™ come out) better (or even as well as) other Marine armies do.

I like them for their averageness, but I'm not going to pretend they're better than they are.

 Orthae wrote:
I personally use the standard Codex because I never have chosen a prebuilt chapter. I created my own codex chapter and find that the material presented there is much better for me since my chapter is not based off of any of the specific chapters mentioned by the original poster.

Absolutely nothing is stopping you from making your own chapter and using the Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Dark Angel or Black Templar codices. They simply represent different archetypes of the Space Marine theme.

Aside from the things mentioned, this is the best codex for making your own fluff up. The other codexes technically only allow one chapter, and Vanilla marine codex lets you make up your own chapter and its fluff from scratch.

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
BTW: I'm still sure BT get rolled into C:SM instead of keeping their independent 'dex.

What makes you so sure? AFAIK there is more evidence against it

There has never been a shred of evidence on BT getting rolled; some people are simply dim enough to consider opinions to be facts.

 Daemonhammer wrote:
Aside from the things mentioned, this is the best codex for making your own fluff up. The other codexes technically only allow one chapter, and Vanilla marine codex lets you make up your own chapter and its fluff from scratch.

I completely agree. Why do I use this codex? Well:

I like the whole idea of Spess Mehreens, but dislike the emo guys with their flying land-raiders, the drunk guys who smell like wet dog, the german dudes whose only tactic is to run at stuff with a sword and the gay guys, whose primach is called Lionel and who paint themselves green to remind them of the forests back home (srsly wtf?).

I picked a colour (black, cause that is well gangsta ) and found that the iron hands already did that. I read up on them, didn't like all the cyborg stuff and therefore came up with my own chapter. I called it a late founding chapter of the imperial fists bacause I liked the fist fluff but hate painting yellow and there you go. Bish Bash Bosh. I may suck at the little plastic soldier game because my little soldiers don't really excell at anything, but they don't humiliate themselves completely because they can deal with most things. They also look badass. Really badass.

You never know, a new codex might give them some of their fureh back.

 Daemonhammer wrote:
Aside from the things mentioned, this is the best codex for making your own fluff up. The other codexes technically only allow one chapter, and Vanilla marine codex lets you make up your own chapter and its fluff from scratch.

Completely untrue. While the special characters are tied to a specific chapter, nothing at all is stopping you making up your own fluff for, say, an assault based chapter and using the Blood Angels codex.

You know, I've never seen anyone use the Combat Tactics rule against me.

The basic theory is, on your opponents turn you lose combat, so you auto fail, and IF you escape combat, you can rally and then shoot and charge the enemy you were just fighting???

I don't really see that as a huge bonus, am I missing something?

I also know that IF your unit takes 25% casualties, you can have them fall back so as not to be chargeable.....again, not that impressive.....

 KGatch113 wrote:


You know, I've never seen anyone use the Combat Tactics rule against me.

The basic theory is, on your opponents turn you lose combat, so you auto fail, and IF you escape combat, you can rally and then shoot and charge the enemy you were just fighting???

I don't really see that as a huge bonus, am I missing something?

Look at it this way - tactical squads are pretty ordinary in combat. It's not uncommon for them to lose to an assault oriented squad, even a weaker one that can simply put out a lot of attacks. You son't want to stay in combat with that squad, you want to get out and rapid fire into it. So in your opponents turn, if you lose the combat, you can do so without needing a test, and fall back. This puts you our of combat in your turn, letting you do what you want with the squad.

It's a pretty awesome ability if you know how to use it.

Auto fail, you can't sweep me because I'm SM and ATSKNF prevents that, so I auto rally, but closer to my lines for support. Or, I get away and get to double tap next turn. And hen wait with baited Overwatch for you to charge me again.

And yes, making my opponent guaranteed fail an important late game charge because he was foolish enough to shoot? Priceless.

 KGatch113 wrote:


You know, I've never seen anyone use the Combat Tactics rule against me.

The basic theory is, on your opponents turn you lose combat, so you auto fail, and IF you escape combat, you can rally and then shoot and charge the enemy you were just fighting???

I don't really see that as a huge bonus, am I missing something?

I also know that IF your unit takes 25% casualties, you can have them fall back so as not to be chargeable.....again, not that impressive.....

For an army that totally relies on shooting bar 1 or 2 specialist units the ability to avoid or disengage from assault and shoot some more is quite substancial.

rigeld2 wrote:
Auto fail, you can't sweep me because I'm SM and ATSKNF prevents that, so I auto rally, but closer to my lines for support. Or, I get away and get to double tap next turn. And hen wait with baited Overwatch for you to charge me again.

And yes, making my opponent guaranteed fail an important late game charge because he was foolish enough to shoot? Priceless.

Right, but most assault oriented combat troops will have higher Init, so they will hold the marines in combat.

I'm not saying it is a bad tactic......but how often does it work????

Most other SM books have Init 4. So you're looking at just under 50%; unless of course they're Terminators, in which case you're guaranteed. Or Ork or Necron assault units (Wraiths, anyone?), which are I2.

And even ~40% chances are amazing set beside zero chance for anyone else to get away.

To be fair I've never seen a Codex Marine player field a lascannon Land Raider either, at least not since they got the option to take anything else.

*cough* Ben Mohlie *cough*.

The basic Lascannon LR gets a lot sexier with capacity 12, like it has in C: SM, so you can fit a squad of terminators AND their Null Zone Librarian (and Vulkan or another combat character if the characters aren't in terminator armor).

Capacity 12 Drop Pods are also significantly nicer.

On a side note my 1250 and 1500 wolves gun down everything. out shot marines plenty almost out shot tau. i mean they are more decked out marines for cheaper and dirt cheap special weapons. Wolf guard are very customizable allowing for useful terminators in squads.
Having devs that are cheaper and can take 5 hw as well as split firing.
They play different than ba and c sm.

Ba fast vehicles play different than c sm because of the extra mobility they fulfill a different role and give the army a unique flavor.

C sm is very customizable and is very entertaining because of tons of options.

-Loki- wrote:

Orthae wrote:I personally use the standard Codex because I never have chosen a prebuilt chapter.

Absolutely nothing is stopping you from making your own chapter and using the Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Dark Angel or Black Templar codices. They simply represent different archetypes of the Space Marine theme.

Umm, yes, this is true... but come on.

Blood angels have a certain archetype to them. Flesh tearers are not blood angels proper, but really, they share almost the same attributes. Likewise, Lamenters are a successor chapter... but really they're blood angels.

The difference between a primary chapter and its successor chapters is rather small. As such, all SW armies will be alike, and all BA and DA armies will be alike, whether they're a successor chapter or not.

Meanwhile, regular SM has a lot more arcetypes, what with ultramarines being really rather dissimilar to iron fists, who are really rather dissimilar to crimson fists, who are really rather dissimilar to raven guard, etc. etc. There's a lot more room to work with, fluffwise, in the SM codex than any other power armor codex.

Plus, it's rather implied that basically all new marines are made from ultramarines, and follow the codex, and the other versions of marines still exist because they were grandfathered in. As such, if you want to make a new, different marine army, you have more space to work in, both fluffwise, and in the list building (codex marines giving you a wider diversity of options).

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, it's rather implied that basically all new marines are made from ultramarines, and follow the codex, and the other versions of marines still exist because they were grandfathered in. As such, if you want to make a new, different marine army, you have more space to work in, both fluffwise, and in the list building (codex marines giving you a wider diversity of options).

The point is that, with marines, you follow a simple process:

1) Pick your army concept and what units you want to use.

2) Pick the codex that has the best rules for it.

3) Paint it however you like and write whatever fluff you like.

If the BA codex is the best way to win with your chosen strategy, you use the BA rules and paint/fluff them as Ultramarines. Or, you just buy a bunch of marines, paint them however you like (including in any codex scheme), and play them as whatever marine codex is best at winning at the moment since 90% of the models are WYSIWYG across all codices.

Two Words:
Pedro Kantor

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, it's rather implied that basically all new marines are made from ultramarines, and follow the codex, and the other versions of marines still exist because they were grandfathered in. As such, if you want to make a new, different marine army, you have more space to work in, both fluffwise, and in the list building (codex marines giving you a wider diversity of options).

The point is that, with marines, you follow a simple process:

1) Pick your army concept and what units you want to use.

2) Pick the codex that has the best rules for it.

3) Paint it however you like and write whatever fluff you like.

If the BA codex is the best way to win with your chosen strategy, you use the BA rules and paint/fluff them as Ultramarines. Or, you just buy a bunch of marines, paint them however you like (including in any codex scheme), and play them as whatever marine codex is best at winning at the moment since 90% of the models are WYSIWYG across all codices.

That wasn't my point at all. I'm not saying this to advocate codex hopping for advantage, which I find very distasteful.

What I'm saying is, if you want to make a custom chapter, then there's no point not looking at all of the codices. They all offer something different that distances itself from the Space Marine codex. You might want Assault Marines as troops, but don't like the idea of some of the other Blood Angels specific units like Sanguinary Preists. Playing a vanilla list isn't going to give you what you want. Playing a Blood Angels list is, you just ignore the units you don't like.