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T4, W2, 5++ jump infantry. Template weapon that glances or wounds on 4+ with no cover or armour saves.

All CD have eternal warrior as well.

Ah.

I was right. They ARE horrible. I'm glad no-one in my area plays daemons.

i would say that long range Dakka and MSU are going to be your best option then. The vindicator idea coudl still work to whittle to squads numbers and ablative woudns down.

Maybe it's a case of take an anti-necron standpoint on it - set up crossfires and concentrate on one squad at a time. kill the whoel squad, then move on to the next. They've basically got a 5+ save to everything so they're not unkillable.

With three squad if you employed the multi-chareg optiona bove (use a small/cheap squad to soak up the overwatch then your Termeis make warp-paste) - that's 33% of the danger gone.

I think you would be best mixing up a lot of the previous suggestions - multi-charge, MSU and spread the army out more to try and force mishaps.

you dont seem to actually want tactics. they're good, yeah. Not many deamon troops are, so they get one close range fire support boosted unit.

SW- prevent deep striking (raven thing) and engage at range, bolters and assault cannons.
GK- same. Psybolts.

New Chaos has a "no overwatch shot" dirge caster on vehicles, if you can a chaos detachment.

Just keep in mind the save and the toughness are the achilles heel here. If you can't exploit them then you will probably get aced. It's not unbeatable though, and you're going at it with one of the worst armies to counter act it. BA is close in low model count armor and toughness troops, which template auto wounders are built to eat. Clearly your frustrated, but if you CAN get over on em, you will have done it with THE WORST army to try and counter deamons with. Think of these games as running with ankle weights.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No offece intended to anyone, but you are incredibly naive if you think an allied detachment of only a handful of Grey Knight units is going to be asimple solution to 27 Flamers. Given that I've played against less Flamers with a full Grey Knight army I can say with confidence that is not a solution, only an aid, and at that, they kill the Grey Knights just as easily.

To the OP, the key to beating Flamers is two fold; disrupt their drops and throw fodder first on the charge. Also, don't be put off by the T4 2 wound thing; they still only have a 5++, it really is like killing an Ork horde when it comes to shooting them. In the end however, Blood Angels being what they are are going to struggle against them. Employ your Ravens to full effect and play them carefully as they are the one thing he can't get from you.

Finally, someone who knows what he is talking about.


Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with your army. But you may need to tailor your list to fight 27 flamers. And even then, it would still be a pretty longshot with blood angels.

I have a question that might seem stupid ... either that or my Codex : Demons is bugged ...
Where do you see flamers with W 2 ? mine show A2 but W1 .... so no big deal punching them full of bullets ...
edit : and Sv 4+ in my book ...

 samuele999 wrote:
assault is pointless when over-watch generates d3 hits per model. I have tried my death company, I have tried stormravens, i have tried terminators with stromshelds. nothing seems to work for me.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

 Jihallah wrote:
More boots, lets shiny special boots?

Deathcompany- You are throwing T4 3+ save models at them, with melee weapons i bet. MORE EXPENSIVE THAN YOUR AVERAGE MARINE.

You need more boots, lets shiny boots. Your assault terminators are 200p of nothing against the flamers. Hold them in reserve unless you want to get slapped by lots of flamer templates.

try:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
To the OP, the key to beating Flamers is two fold; disrupt their drops and throw fodder first on the charge. Also, don't be put off by the T4 2 wound thing; they still only have a 5++, it really is like killing an Ork horde when it comes to shooting them. In the end however, Blood Angels being what they are are going to struggle against them. Employ your Ravens to full effect and play them carefully as they are the one thing he can't get from you.

Also- look up spreading out to avoid templates. What shooting do the daemons have that ignore your armor? not much at all. You don't need to hug cover, so spread out to avoid template pain.

One thing as a daemon player- It is hard to deepstrike and be able to hit someone with a template if they aren't guided down. daemons cannot guide themselves without a skyshield pad, and if they do have one- stay away from the skyshield to avoid drop+flame. You should have a turn to pump shots into them. You need to put as many bullets into that mob of flamers before they hit you. How do you put more bullets into them?

More Boots. Mo' boots means Mo' bullets and Mo' bodies to let the force as a whole shrug off the deaths that will happen from flaming.
It's like a warcraft or RTS game with the resources- not "You require more Vespene Gas", its "You require more Boots"

-edit- don't have a BA codex, but couldn't you pump out MSU ass marines with HB razorbacks? seems a cheap way of getting Mo' firepower on the cheap

TanKoL wrote:
I have a question that might seem stupid ... either that or my Codex : Demons is bugged ...
Where do you see flamers with W 2 ? mine show A2 but W1 .... so no big deal punching them full of bullets ...
edit : and Sv 4+ in my book ...

The WD update with the chariot changed them and screamers.

 Praxiss wrote:
What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!

Unless it changed, all deamons are EW, which means no insta-pop.
I have a friend using that exact tactic, with the new tzeentch disks (which are terrifingly good...) as a bonus.

A few tricks :
- You cannot be flamed if you are already in melee - that means get your melee units in melee ASAP, even if its not flamers
- Vehicules are resilient against flamers - i specificaly think about a LR, which is imprevious to flamers (beware of screamers though!). Crusader and its high volume of fire comes to mind
- As other said, a good tactic is volume of fire. Get more boots on the ground. I'd say drop the 2 SR and one of the terminator squad, get some sterguards or even a regular tac squad.
- Use wisely the first 2 turns, when your enemy is largely outnumbered (general daemon trick though)
- max out your melee squads, the OW can only kill that much MEQs. You need to get a few guys in combat just to lock down the flamers. Once that's done, they're toast.

I use PM to great effect considering their resilience. You can have similar toughness with blood priests (or whatever your chaplains/apothecary/FNP guys are called), can't you?

 Seb wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!

Unless it changed, all deamons are EW, which means no insta-pop.
I have a friend using that exact tactic, with the new tzeentch disks (which are terrifingly good...) as a bonus.

A few tricks :
- You cannot be flamed if you are already in melee - that means get your melee units in melee ASAP, even if its not flamers
- Vehicules are resilient against flamers - i specificaly think about a LR, which is imprevious to flamers (beware of screamers though!). Crusader and its high volume of fire comes to mind
- As other said, a good tactic is volume of fire. Get more boots on the ground. I'd say drop the 2 SR and one of the terminator squad, get some sterguards or even a regular tac squad.
- Use wisely the first 2 turns, when your enemy is largely outnumbered (general daemon trick though)
- max out your melee squads, the OW can only kill that much MEQs. You need to get a few guys in combat just to lock down the flamers. Once that's done, they're toast.

I use PM to great effect considering their resilience. You can have similar toughness with blood priests (or whatever your chaplains/apothecary/FNP guys are called), can't you?

Vehicles resiliant vs flamers? They can kill a land raider as easily as anything else. Every other hit is an auto-glance. So they remove all your hull points rather quickly. The only thing safe from them is a zooming flyer. Land raiders are only more resiliant vs screamers, who still have a shot at penning it with a 10+ on 2d6.

How about MSU?

5man assault squad with flamer (fighting fire with fire) and a razorback with TL heavybolter. Around 120p or something.
The 9 flamers will pop a razorback without any problems, then what? Should they assault the five marines?
With those small 5 man squads you spread out the damage.
He can use his fancy 9 flamer squad to kill either one Razorback or 5 marines per turn.

When you decide to charge, use two units at the same time. Take a damaged squad and go first.
The first squad will whipe but then its safe to go in with the second squad. And with some luck you will keep them locked in combat.

Also as someone else said, they are T4 and 5++, so they are basicly two orcs vs small arms fire. Just pump them full of bolter fire and they will die.
Dont forget to focus fire, as even 2-3 flamers are deadly. You must kill all of them in the squad.

As allied I would recomend guard. Those guardsmen die just as easy as marines to flamers. Use them to bubblewrap and first assault the flamers.

And hope that the deamons will get a new codex in the near future.

I played against my brother last night and he used daemons against me for the first time. I know exactly what you mean with your flamer problem. I was put off at first by the T4 2 wounds, and didn't focus fire on the Flamers or his screamers, but when I decided to finaly bite the bullet and start charging in, I started to focus fire to soften the screamers up. Half the unit died to massed small arms fire both times, and whatever squad was locked in combat with his screamers was immune to flamers. Granted I'm playing Chaos Marines, which isn't Blood Angels, but the principle is the same. Massed small arms fire and focused heavy weapons fire from the start. Take some Heavy Bolters. 4 of them put out enough wounds to worry anything in an all comers list and should get a few turns of shooting in. They're not good in cc, so if he starts with 9 try to gun down 5 or 6 and then get stuck in. They're fearless so you can slowly hack through them, being protected yourself.

Like I said you need to use multiple units...one to sacrifice and one to put in the smack down. Combat squad everything.

Lol... Just found this online.... I am the daemon player mentioned... ( Jevans )
Btw I just bought 27 more flamers today...
Yep, that's 54 flamers....
... I am such a good friend...

Just tell him 27 flamers is ballocks and you won't play his nonsense. There's no real way to stop it, short of massing firepower and hoping for the best.

For all you thinking I am unsporting player... I am actually not... I still to this date have only won one or two games against Sam, and this is my answer to that... Sam is a really good player, and even with this really cheesy list, he manages to beat me most times...

...however 54 flamers create an entirely different problem...

To be Honest I think you are an amazing friend... I wish i had friends like you

 n0t_u wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
I have a question that might seem stupid ... either that or my Codex : Demons is bugged ...
Where do you see flamers with W 2 ? mine show A2 but W1 .... so no big deal punching them full of bullets ...
edit : and Sv 4+ in my book ...

The WD update with the chariot changed them and screamers.

They really need to stop putting rules in WD. I have my brb behind me and I was about to accuse the daemon player of cheating.

 CuddlySquig wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
I have a question that might seem stupid ... either that or my Codex : Demons is bugged ...
Where do you see flamers with W 2 ? mine show A2 but W1 .... so no big deal punching them full of bullets ...
edit : and Sv 4+ in my book ...

The WD update with the chariot changed them and screamers.

They really need to stop putting rules in WD. I have my brb behind me and I was about to accuse the daemon player of cheating.

Though I do like getting updated rules in the WD this is a problem I'm seeing a lot lately. I just saw someone recently, a new player to 40k have no idea what was going on when everyone was telling him that he was wrong about his flamers even though he had the codex open right in front of him.

It's not just the new players either, a few weeks ago at a tournament 3 out of 5 games I had to tell my obviously experienced opponents that I am not playing my SoB wrong when they kept reciting old rules.

Stay Spread out, use terrain to your advantage. Remember if they can't see you they can't hurt you. Make him "thread the needle"

Layer squads and remember he has to hit the most of a squad IIRC use stuff like this to your advantage.

Might be an idea to play 1999+1 opposed to 2k with a double FoC ^^

54 fits in one FoC.

rigeld2 wrote:
54 fits in one FoC.

Flamers are max squads of 9
elite slots
so max 27

WD update

Just Bolter drill him to death bud, if your not gunna use grey knights you gotta take the punch and deliver it three times as hard

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
54 fits in one FoC.

Flamers are max squads of 9
elite slots
so max 27

WD update

Think they are referring to the dual force org at 2000 points.

I use 1 unit of 6-9 flamers and 1 unit of 6 screamers. With a Daemon update on the horizon, I would not drop 200 bucks on flamers that may get nerfed into oblivion in a month or two.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
54 fits in one FoC.

Flamers are max squads of 9
elite slots
so max 27

WD update

I thought they were Troops. My bad.

Do they drive you to drink?

 samuele999 wrote:
I don't think people grasp how flamers are so good, vehicles will die. bang landraider, baal preadtor, whatever, they have only got to get within 8 inches when they deepstrike and they will wipe your hull points clean.. marines of any type don't stand a chance 3+ armor s rubbish against templates that give you no armor and cover. they wound on 4+. they have 2 wounds toughness 4, inv of 5+, they are jet infantry and only cost 23 or 26 points. explain what a marine player does, how he gets the firepower to destroy 27 flamers in one, or even if you get the chance as he will have deepstriked and flammed half your army to death. assault is pointless when over-watch generates d3 hits per model. I have tried my death company, I have tried stormravens, i have tried terminators with stromshelds. nothing seems to work for me.

I agree with Jihallah. Your friend covers the board in Flamers? Cover the board with marines. He can get 27 flamers, you can get 100 marines in 1600 points.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
54 fits in one FoC.

Flamers are max squads of 9
elite slots
so max 27

WD update

I thought they were Troops. My bad.

All good, had to doublecheck the update to see squad size ^^

 Praxiss wrote:
What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!

Everything in Codex: Daemons of Chaos has eternal warrior. EVERYTHING. Instant death is useless against them (apart from wounding on a 2+, although GK I believe have a trick which bypasses EW on Daemons).

Flamers are stupid good. Deepstriking templates that ignore most armor means pretty much the turn they arrive they will take out whatever units they want. Not sure why they made em so good I have had a single unit of them mess me up bad can't imagine going against 3. Best I can suggest is use your flyers maybe guard allies for some more. Other than that some of the basics spread your units out to the max so less fit under a template. Arrange your units so there is very limited options for him to deepstrike and have cheap inexpensive units as his only targets where he can (this is hard to do and I can see with a space marine dex how it would be even harder). Keep some guys in stormravens until after those suckers come in so you get to deploy around him rather than the other way around. I feel for you though having gone against them I hate flamers.

Edit: Something else I thought of maybe the skyshiled landing pad might help it confers 4+ invul not cover to those on top of it and putting some heavy fire power on it might help allot.

Orks, nids, and guard give my flamers the greatest challenge.

Shoota boys die as easy as space marines to flame templates, pack a lot of dakka, and are cheap enough to take wall of death hits. Sure the alternate 3 shots at BS4 S4 ap4 shots also hurt orks well, but shootas really hurt flamers.

With nids it's all about skill. 2 small units of gaunts charging flamers is pretty much doom for the flamer. Nids do very well in shooting and CC when it comes to stripping t4 models of wounds.

IG are dirt cheap and do well at plinking away at flamers, but once again it's all about skill. Flashl ights, griffons, multi lasers, and heavy flamers all do a good job at wracking up wounds on units of flamers.

The deadliest thing I found about flamers is their speed. They look good on paper, but won't perform up to expectations without skillful maneuvering, but when used right they are even better than they look on paper.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
Do they drive you to drink?

 samuele999 wrote:
I don't think people grasp how flamers are so good, vehicles will die. bang landraider, baal preadtor, whatever, they have only got to get within 8 inches when they deepstrike and they will wipe your hull points clean.. marines of any type don't stand a chance 3+ armor s rubbish against templates that give you no armor and cover. they wound on 4+. they have 2 wounds toughness 4, inv of 5+, they are jet infantry and only cost 23 or 26 points. explain what a marine player does, how he gets the firepower to destroy 27 flamers in one, or even if you get the chance as he will have deepstriked and flammed half your army to death. assault is pointless when over-watch generates d3 hits per model. I have tried my death company, I have tried stormravens, i have tried terminators with stromshelds. nothing seems to work for me.

I agree with Jihallah. Your friend covers the board in Flamers? Cover the board with marines. He can get 27 flamers, you can get 100 marines in 1600 points.

You can never have enough boots!