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Ya, although I prefer my Knights to Blood Angels I have a friend who has a massive army of them and I have learned to respect their power as well. I'd recommend first beefing up your death company. You can have a squad of 30 with feel no pain; Imagine what two of those squads could do on the ground with a 10 man thunder hammer storm shield squad backing them up. Flamers may kill a lot, but what is left should wipe them out and feel no pain is better than nothing which is what a GK Strike squads would get. To be effective with Warp Quake you need to bring mostly or all Grey Knights to try to spread it around to make the most use of it. Otherwise, ya Storm Ravens don't come in till turn 2+, but that is one less turn your weaker unit(s) inside take fire; and when it comes in zooming you can still deploy the units and they in turn can fire with precision as your opponent literally has to come to you with a Deamons codex or hold them inside and shoot them to death while you bide your time and drop onto the objective(s) turn 5.

Keep your units big, dig in and wait for the reinforcements and by then your opponent will be exposed and you'll have the tactical advantage.

9 flamers will, on average cause 9 wounds with no armor save when you assault them.

A unit like TH/SS terminators will then lose 3 of them then successfully tie up the flamers for the rest of the game.

Another option is to assault with an already damaged unit, using up the overwatch, then assault with another squad.

If you're going second you can always reserve your entire list.

He will be forced to drop in with his first wave (which you know he has to roll for right?). You can then come on in a position to take maximum advantage. Take an allied detachment which aids reserve manipulation for more reliability if you like.

You should be using a shooting list, or if you must be assault based have sacrificial units to absorb overwatch. The flamers will die easily to torrent firepower. Seriously, 2 wounds at toughness 4 with a 5+ save isn't much to crow about.

Pack your army with volume of firepower; baals, storm ravens, land speeders, tactical marines, devastators, whatever you like as long as it shoots a lot. You out range him and have greater mobility.

 rems01 wrote:
If you're going second you can always reserve your entire list.

Welcome to 6th edition where not only is this not always possible, it will guarantee a loss in many codexes.

The answer is simple. Create a bubble. If he is spending a significant amount of points into that army pick out a unit/s that cost the the equal or even better, a lot less! Choose a unit which you think will deal poorly with the very army your facing and deploy them in a half-circle with 2" in between every single one. Now with 6th and premeasuring measure carefully and make sure they cant jump over your bubble-unit. Behind ur meatwall you will place your counter units which in next round will charge out and deal with them. Combat is the weakness of the flamers of tzeenth(basically every tzeenth unit share this weakness) You dont need your enitre army, just a unit to tie them up for some round and eventually defeat them having in mind how horrible the flamers are in combat.

Horrible in Close Combat yes, but they have a 4+ invul as well. I've been stuck in CC with Pink Horrors for three turns because they refuse to die or fall back.

The Bubble is a good idea, that is why I am pro 30 man squads. Even if they come in and and kill 9 Death Company, they are then in rapid fire range of the other 21. The opponent gets to chose who they fire over-watch at as you declare your assaults before all assault moves are made if memory serves me. One good thing about playing Deamons is they have to come to you. Good spacing as well as large squads should keep your squads alive as well as catch the flamers in a crossfire.

Flamers have a 5++ save now.

You do not declare all assaults at once - you do them in order. That means you can put a bait unit out there.

I would rather run small units against flamers than large ones - it can limit the damage at least. Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Daemons have to come to you, but unlike other foot armies they can get there Turn 1 with a DS then eat a turn of shooting before being right there. That is assuming the alpha strike from Flamers and Screamers do not decimate your ability to fight back.

In my experience the above is exactly what usually happens.

I've been playing with 18 flamers + 8 crushers for a while now.
(The crushers are there to get my flamers out of a jam if their assaulted)

 calypso2ts wrote:
Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Let me tell you, this bit of advise gives me the biggest problems. I have to spend a full turn blowing up the rhino before I can get to the chewy nuggets inside.

When shooting at the flamers, you need to really focus fire. One squad of GH with 2 PGs will do ~5.03 wounds to the flamer squad. That's great when there are only 3 flamers, but if your facing 9 its nowhere nearly enough. You will need to focus a lot of fire to kill them.

The problem is that even 2-3 flamers can be a significant threat. That's what makes flamers so good. Even if most of them get shot up, a few can still clear a squad off an objective.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've been playing with 18 flamers + 8 crushers for a while now.
(The crushers are there to get my flamers out of a jam if their assaulted)

 calypso2ts wrote:
Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Let me tell you, this bit of advise gives me the biggest problems. I have to spend a full turn blowing up the rhino before I can get to the chewy nuggets inside.

When shooting at the flamers, you need to really focus fire. One squad of GH with 2 PGs will do ~5.03 wounds to the flamer squad. That's great when there are only 3 flamers, but if your facing 9 its nowhere nearly enough. You will need to focus a lot of fire to kill them.

The problem is that even 2-3 flamers can be a significant threat. That's what makes flamers so good. Even if most of them get shot up, a few can still clear a squad off an objective.

First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!

Lasguns for the win.

 Tomb King wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've been playing with 18 flamers + 8 crushers for a while now.
(The crushers are there to get my flamers out of a jam if their assaulted)

 calypso2ts wrote:
Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Let me tell you, this bit of advise gives me the biggest problems. I have to spend a full turn blowing up the rhino before I can get to the chewy nuggets inside.

When shooting at the flamers, you need to really focus fire. One squad of GH with 2 PGs will do ~5.03 wounds to the flamer squad. That's great when there are only 3 flamers, but if your facing 9 its nowhere nearly enough. You will need to focus a lot of fire to kill them.

The problem is that even 2-3 flamers can be a significant threat. That's what makes flamers so good. Even if most of them get shot up, a few can still clear a squad off an objective.

First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!

Lasguns for the win.

whats that 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, 8 saves, 17 wounds on the flamers. Thats with a 50 man blob, that's managed to essentially kill 1 squad.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
whats that 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, 8 saves, 17 wounds on the flamers. Thats with a 50 man blob, that's managed to essentially kill 1 squad.

That's still better than anything I could do with Orks for the same points. 30 Shoota boyz with 3 Big Shootas will only average 7 unsaved wounds on a unit of Flamers... and get toasted in return. However, getting all these guardsmen in range is nigh impossible, and imo that's the real problem.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've been playing with 18 flamers + 8 crushers for a while now.
(The crushers are there to get my flamers out of a jam if their assaulted)

 calypso2ts wrote:
Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Let me tell you, this bit of advise gives me the biggest problems. I have to spend a full turn blowing up the rhino before I can get to the chewy nuggets inside.

When shooting at the flamers, you need to really focus fire. One squad of GH with 2 PGs will do ~5.03 wounds to the flamer squad. That's great when there are only 3 flamers, but if your facing 9 its nowhere nearly enough. You will need to focus a lot of fire to kill them.

The problem is that even 2-3 flamers can be a significant threat. That's what makes flamers so good. Even if most of them get shot up, a few can still clear a squad off an objective.

First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!

Lasguns for the win.

whats that 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, 8 saves, 17 wounds on the flamers. Thats with a 50 man blob, that's managed to essentially kill 1 squad.

50 man blob is a whole 250pts. I think that would be a nice easy trade.

Nym wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
whats that 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, 8 saves, 17 wounds on the flamers. Thats with a 50 man blob, that's managed to essentially kill 1 squad.

That's still better than anything I could do with Orks for the same points. 30 Shoota boyz with 3 Big Shootas will only average 7 unsaved wounds on a unit of Flamers... and get toasted in return. However, getting all these guardsmen in range is nigh impossible, and imo that's the real problem.

The thing about flamers is they deep strike near you.

Everyone is talking like flamers are entering on their own. Unfortunately you will get assaulted by both flamers and screamers and that is the problem. Daemon lists have been winning lately even without over spamming flamers. You only need about 15 of them and 18 screamers to table a lot of opponents in five turns. Blobs are the best defense backed up by template weapons.

What's even scarier is 26 flamers in 1000pts...
With 9 screamers in there for support...

TWC can take overwatch hits on SS

TH/SS termes can take over watch hits.

Worst case scenario is multi wound models such as wraiths, tyranid warriors, ogryns, grotesques, and chaos spawn.

Worst of the worst is definitely wraiths. 3++ invo still works, and S6 rending attacks are still S6 v T4.

Flamers are a MEQ problem. MEQ is still competitive, it's just no longer the meta in 6th. Once the meta realizes that MEQ are no longer the meta the meta will be very diversified.

RegalPhantom wrote:
Everything in Codex: Daemons of Chaos has eternal warrior. EVERYTHING. Instant death is useless against them (apart from wounding on a 2+, although GK I believe have a trick which bypasses EW on Daemons).

The Nemesis weapons (if that's what you're referring to) don't bypass EW per say. They force an additional check, the Daemon model has to fail a Ld check, but is still immune to the Force Weapon instant death portion.

I've had opponents try to tell me that if a Daemon is hit by a Nemesis Force Weapon it can suffer instant death, as if the weapon strips Eternal Warrior from the model. It doesn't quite work that way.

Flamers are a MEQ problem. MEQ is still competitive, it's just no longer the meta in 6th. Once the meta realizes that MEQ are no longer the meta the meta will be very diversified.

Flamers are a Meq and Teq problem. They also hurt hordes to a degree. You will see mostly allied Meq lists still. Whatever flamers do not finish off can be handled by screamers. Honestly - I play daemons with CSm allies. I stopped playing my primary list because it was not fun for a lot of other players. Sure it can be beaten - but you need blobs not MSU squads to bubblewrap your main damage producing squads. Vehicles also help a lot. Unfortunately or fortunately for those that play a lot of screamer/flamer, those are not the most common lists now. I have beat GK with warp quake many times. A mech GK list with allies (IG or Necrons) is a whole other matter. They can take on my list. Rune priest SW with IG can take on my list. Still overall daemons are proving quite competitive now since players realized that allies shore up almost all their weaknesses and that FMC heavy lists are one shot affairs easily taken out. I cut down on my flamers of late ... played this list a few days ago ...

1 Chaos Lord; Mark of Khorne; Juggernaut; Axe of Blinding Fury; VotlW; Gift of Mutation; Sigil of Corruption 180
1 Lord of Change; Mastery of Sorcery 260
6 Flamers of Tzeentch 138
20 Cultists; 2 Flamers 100
3x 5 Plaguemarines; 2 Plasmaguns; Melatbomb 465
6 Plaguebearers of Nurgle 90
5 Chaos Spawn; Mark of Khorne 160
9 Screamers of Tzeentch 225
2x 5 Havocs; 4 Autocannons 230
2 Obliterators; Mark of Nurgle 152

Even only six flamers and nine screamers were enough to cause my opponent some major headaches. The list is not even optimized - it was an attempt to tone down ( I was playing daemons as the primary force with CSM detachment so I had two units of flamers and two of screamers). It still ran over a GK list in five turns. He just did not have enough models or vehicles on the table.

Simple Formula=

Fast moving assualt squad example, Bikes.

Chase them and lock them in combat.

 calypso2ts wrote:
Flamers have a 5++ save now.

Do they? I thought that the German FAQ said that their Daemon special rule refers to the one in the Chaos Daemons Codex and not the rulebook? The one in the Codex says nothing about a save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Feel No Pain wrote:
Simple Formula=

Fast moving assualt squad example, Bikes.

Chase them and lock them in combat.

Fine, charge the Flamers with your Bikes, they each get D3 hits that kill you on 4s. How many bikes do you plan on charging in to how many flamers?

Never attack flamers with elite units. You shoot flamers down or try and bog them down with an expendable large squad. .

Feel No Pain wrote:
Simple Formula=

Fast moving assualt squad example, Bikes.

Chase them and lock them in combat.

yep, please lock my flamers in CC as they get to WoD you first.

Demons sadly ALL have eternal warrior...so no insta-gibbing

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Feel No Pain wrote:
Simple Formula=

Fast moving assualt squad example, Bikes.

Chase them and lock them in combat.

yep, please lock my flamers in CC as they get to WoD you first.

Thats why you throw a expendable unit in their first then hit them hard with something else.

I am going to try template spam again demons this weekend, plus a skyshield for a 4++ save and some FNP good ness, Against flamer spam I would know what to do though, could wipe his troops out but then you will most probably lose your troops in the process. I

eternal warriors cheif best way to figure out how to kill flamers it to realize how many wounds you will need to inflict upon them in shooting to kill them for a unit of 9 thats 18 wounds you will have to cause. inceneraters work great because you will wound on i think 2 maybe 3 either way deepstriking leaves um bunched up so them bunched up 4 inceneraters will do at least 3 wounds a per dude unless he rolls really really well they will all die. thats the fastest way to kill um other then that castle up with your warp quakes and shoot the piss out of them with weapons that will wound


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and if your gonna get into assault with them charge with 12 points of henchmen first or a unit thats all ready been badly damaged and once your in they will die

A Stormraven full of GK with a expendable Dread on the back to take the Overwatch. If the Flamers don't Overwatch the Dread he locks them, if they do he dies but you can smash the remaining Flamers with the GK. You should always get the charge from the Stormraven by Zooming in from Reserves and then Assaulting the next turn. If the Flamers run from you instead then you took them out of the game anyway. If you are not in a position to charge then don't Glide that turn and you are safe from all templates anyway. Depending on the mission the Flamers can be made useless, in Purge just fly around and kill the other stuff, in objective missions just kill the scoring units and last turn drop on the objectives or play the draw and win on Linebreaker/Kill Warlord/First Blood points.

Edit: As was stated already, with BA you are hosed. My favorite army to see with my Daemons even before the broken Flamer changes was MEQ without transports.

Hi! I am finally back! I have been on holiday to beadle and have come back to find this massive post.
1. Thank you everybody, you have all tried to at least help me!
2. Unfortunately, I am not rich!!!!! it drives me up the wall, war-hammer is quite expensive and i cant afford to revamp an entire army. I am willing to spend some money on some good units, but i can just build a whole new army, i have to alter my blood-angels lists! I do appreciate all the help people, but saying, use imperial guard, or use nids or whaterver, is not what i want to do!
3. He does not just spam flammers, but FMC and screamers.
4. He is now buying helldrakes to demolish my stormravens
5. I am considering some grey knights.
6. I like paladins. Yes paladins - 1 paladins with a nemisis warding stave can take all the overwatch of a flamer squad and still survive, if they have feel no pain. on average they will hit 18 times and wound 9. he has two wounds and a 2+ inv! This is because over-watch is part of the assault phase. ( i hope this is correct or am i being stupid?
8 I like using combat squads, it is a good idea, but when victory points are so crucial in 6th edition, they are very easy to give away.
9. I use 10 men death company with bolters and no jumpacks.
10. razor back spam, is a pet hate, it is well, abusing war-hammer and incredibly unfriendly.
11. Thanks again for all your help, i am sorry if i have not mentioned all of your ideas, but there was quite a lot! also this is not a rant, but i am annoyed with GW for making flammers, well a bit too good in my eyes.
12. I think its going to be a few grey knights, with plenty of boots, i have well over 70 tactical marines and see what that does, although he will probably resort to his 60 blood-letters again. And i will consider using a suicide unit to get the charge in as well.

 schadenfreude wrote:
TWC can take overwatch hits on SS

TH/SS termes can take over watch hits.

Worst case scenario is multi wound models such as wraiths, tyranid warriors, ogryns, grotesques, and chaos spawn.

Worst of the worst is definitely wraiths. 3++ invo still works, and S6 rending attacks are still S6 v T4.

Flamers are a MEQ problem. MEQ is still competitive, it's just no longer the meta in 6th. Once the meta realizes that MEQ are no longer the meta the meta will be very diversified.

razorwing flocks eat flamers for breakfast lunch and dinner.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Demons sadly ALL have eternal warrior...so no insta-gibbing

Slight correction.

Daemons in the Daemon Codex all have EW.

Just being a Daemon doesn't make you have EW.

Still...

30 Death Company and with a Librarian you can give them telekinetic dome so they have a 5++ and Feel no pain. Better than most everything gets against flamers. If you roll Divination on your librarian you can end up with a 4++ and feel no pain on that squad and that's better than anything gets to my knowledge (I wouldn't recommend it unless you have two mastery level two librarians so 1 with telekinetic dome is probably best); then the flamers are in rapid fire range and are toast and if there is 1 or 3 left you can charge them with the death company because they are Relentless.

I agree with you on the spending, but as long as you are resigned I'd recommend filling out your partial squads before going half squads of anything else.

 samuele999 wrote:


8 I like using combat squads, it is a good idea, but when victory points are so crucial in 6th edition, they are very easy to give away.

I thought this edition most of the missions were control points and only 1 in 6 was kill points. And I still think a sky shield landing pad could possibly mess up his day.