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Just a quick question, in a 600 point game is 1 vindicator enough? or should I try and cram a second one in (it would be replacing a thunderfire cannon, and possibly meaning other squads lose out)?
thanks

I think at 600 points more than one Vindicator is probably overkill.

In a 600 pt game I'd go with the one only. In my opinion I don't even like them in low points game because if they scatter they are useless as there is typically very little to scatter on to. Maybe it's me but my vindicators either do very well or very poor.

It's not just you. Vindicators are incredibly situational. I've only ever used them in C:CSM lists when I also have access to Lash or Pavane. Otherwise, the risk of scatter and relative vulnerability of the tank itself makes it a very risky 125 points. If it is a Direct Hit, it can do well for its points.. but good luck getting more than 1-2 shots in a game with it.

In a 600 pt game, only take 1.

One is ok and got a tech marine close to it.

at 600 points 1 is barely a good idea. What does ur troops look like?

that would mean you have a list like this:

1 libby (100)
1 tac with ML/MG or ML/PG (175-180)
1 5 man scout squad with camo (100)
TFC (100)


leaving you 120 for ur vindi. This leaves you so-so on the troops front, id go with getting some attack bikes instead (2 for 100 with MMs), gives you some more anti-armour and can deny/linebreaker (which at such low point games is a pretty key ability to have).

in 600 points, taking more than one is a huge liability. what if you are facing an army that has more range and mobility. or just range for that matter.

Largo39 wrote:
at 600 points 1 is barely a good idea. What does ur troops look like?

that would mean you have a list like this:

1 libby (100)
1 tac with ML/MG or ML/PG (175-180)
1 5 man scout squad with camo (100)
TFC (100)

very nearly spot on.
the tac squad has combimelta, flamer, ML
scouts have snipers

So would it be better to replace the vindicator with something else?
MM attack bites just don't have the sheer stopping power of a demolisher cannon, and at that points level even if it only gets one shot
off it would take a sizable chunk out of most armies.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just had a thought, would a stormtalon be any good?

Vindicators kill everything apart from flyers. It is probably the closest marines get to balance at low points.

librarian, 10 scouts, 3 vindicators would work against most 600 point armies.
Vindicators are relatively hard to kill especially for a small army. Then st10 large blast is going to wipe out most things. The scouts are probably lucky enough to stay alive to score at the end.

Single vindicators is just asking for the enemies one antitank unit to have a target and kill it first turn. However, 3 becomes a different proposition to the enemy. 2 becomes more sensible but how will the rest of the list work?

I have been playing 40k since 2007 (admittedly i am still a 40k rookie compared to a lot of the veterans here). My Chaos Vindicators rarely, if ever, get to fire off a shot.

I played the other night and it got a weapon destroyed inthe first shot of the game. Repaired it with my warpsmith (yay!) only to have its first shot scatter into a tree, the tank then got blown up before it got to try again.

I'm taking all 3 of mine in an Apoc game next week - hopefully they perform better in a squadron.

MFletch wrote:
Vindicators kill everything apart from flyers. It is probably the closest marines get to balance at low points.

librarian, 10 scouts, 3 vindicators would work against most 600 point armies.
Vindicators are relatively hard to kill especially for a small army. Then st10 large blast is going to wipe out most things. The scouts are probably lucky enough to stay alive to score at the end.

Single vindicators is just asking for the enemies one antitank unit to have a target and kill it first turn. However, 3 becomes a different proposition to the enemy. 2 becomes more sensible but how will the rest of the list work?

unfortunately, you need two troops choices, and since most of the games (3 out of 4) are objective based, It wouldn't really be viable.

matapata98 wrote:

MFletch wrote:
Vindicators kill everything apart from flyers. It is probably the closest marines get to balance at low points.

librarian, 10 scouts, 3 vindicators would work against most 600 point armies.
Vindicators are relatively hard to kill especially for a small army. Then st10 large blast is going to wipe out most things. The scouts are probably lucky enough to stay alive to score at the end.

Single vindicators is just asking for the enemies one antitank unit to have a target and kill it first turn. However, 3 becomes a different proposition to the enemy. 2 becomes more sensible but how will the rest of the list work?

unfortunately, you need two troops choices, and since most of the games (3 out of 4) are objective based, It wouldn't really be viable.

I'm guessing the scouts are in two 5-man squads (scouts are one of the few units in the SM codex that don't benefit from taking full-sized units), and the purpose of going triple vindicator is to completely wipe enemy units out. If used properly, very little anti-tank can get a shot at a Vindicator without the vindicator being able to get a shot in before it, and even if your opponent is packing lascannons at 600 points you should be able to aggressively use your Vindicators to wipe them out. That being said, 14 models is a bit low, even for a 600 point game.

Ah yes (facepalm self), I see. and yes, 14 models is very low, when I first started draigowing in 5th, I constantly go tabled. But still, Would 2 vindis and a thunderfire not be better, since you get the free techmarine, and have a few spare points.
would this be the list you are talking about
librarian 100
scouts 75
scouts 75
Vindicator 115
Vindicator 115
Vindicator 115
leaving 5 pts

or you could do
librarian 100
scouts 75
scouts camo cloaks 90
Vindicator 115
Vindicator 115
Thunderfire 100

camp scouts on home objective in terrain reinforced by techmarine, for that sweet 2= cover save, vindicator spam anything which tries to do anything, and constantly bombard his objective with thunderfire (airburst if in cover)
would that work?

Sorry, another idea
libby
tac w/flamer, ml
scout snipers, camo
vindicator
vindicator
total 600
hows that?

Sorry, is that list good or bad then, and if so, which of the three is best?

Vindicators are awesome for the simple fact alone that they force your opponent to play your game rather than his.

Put two in cover guarding a side of the table and whomever you're playing will either have to dedicate a lot of resources getting rid of them or risk the off chance that they might not scatter and will simply remove from the table what they shot.

One of them isnt a big threat, two of them will definitely play with your opponents head. They are a great area denial tool.

I would go with the two, they are powerful clumsy beasts and trust me, you will be very happy that you have a vindicator left to kill a big ass trygon that blew up the first one. Two to daunt your opponent and smash him to bits whilst (usuall) staying safe.

On the other hand, since my tac squad would be objective getting, that leaves them without that surprise AT that is in the combimelta. Is it worth it?

matapata98 wrote:
On the other hand, since my tac squad would be objective getting, that leaves them without that surprise AT that is in the combimelta. Is it worth it?

Combo melta, I find...never any use...I've used them, and failed. Get a dedicated meltagun?

Unfortunately that would leave me without that D3 overwatch hits when charged, which could be very helpful. Also, as a side note, does anyone know whether you can cast avenger during overwatch?

matapata98 wrote:
Unfortunately that would leave me without that D3 overwatch hits when charged, which could be very helpful. Also, as a side note, does anyone know whether you can cast avenger during overwatch?

wat?

are you confusing the combi-melta with the combi-flamer?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

matapata98 wrote:
Unfortunately that would leave me without that D3 overwatch hits when charged, which could be very helpful. Also, as a side note, does anyone know whether you can cast avenger during overwatch?

wat?

are you confusing the combi-melta with the combi-flamer?

Think he is now...no I don't think you can cast avenger in over watch.

No, I mean replacing the flamer with melta on my tac squad special weapons guy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MilkyDamBusters wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

matapata98 wrote:
Unfortunately that would leave me without that D3 overwatch hits when charged, which could be very helpful. Also, as a side note, does anyone know whether you can cast avenger during overwatch?

wat?

are you confusing the combi-melta with the combi-flamer?

Think he is now...no I don't think you can cast avenger in over watch.

Why not? Isn't it a psychic shooting attack? And overwatch is counted as making a shooting attack?

True, I'm not sure...well depends on what you want...melta for antitank and maybe the odd flyer and flamers for infantry and horde armies, weapons are very different. What do you want them for? Bearing in mind flamers are free.

the flamer does give me a bit more versatility in it being free, and the melta can only hit flyers on 6's, meaning my ML is better in that context, since thats free too, or maybe a MM, however that doesnt really give me any anti horde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But which is better?

matapata98 wrote:
the flamer does give me a bit more versatility in it being free, and the melta can only hit flyers on 6's, meaning my ML is better in that context, since thats free too, or maybe a MM, however that doesnt really give me any anti horde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But which is better?

You can take a melta gun and a missile launcher? Well how many tactical squads have you got? Be simple with versatility and just have one with a flamer and one with melta, both missile launchers. Simple but effective, and fairly cheap too. Solid there's a horde, just use krak missiles or move the squad with the flamer up?

Also, doesnt the thunderfire's subteranean burst help stop horde armies and vehicles, since most are assaulty (nids and orks).
Also out of interest, what is the highest number of infantry guard you can fit into 600pts?
P.S. I saw a list that did very well last year, an eldar seer on jetbike, 4 warlocks on bikes, 2x3 jetbike guardians w/warlocks. I would think that my list would do quite well against that wouldn't it, due to the number of blasts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be rather easy to table, or am I missing something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yes but it's more tournament format, meaning you need one list.

Thunderfires, if used well, you get really screwed over, like me in one game...either my rubbish deployment, or his insanely good rolling. But otherwise there just funny but pretty intimidating...but yeah it kills and mames...from the codex...any unit hit by an SB will move as if in difficult terrain in its following movement phase. Vehicles must also take a dangerous terrain test if it moves in the next moving phase. (Even skimmers)

so is that good?

matapata98 wrote:
so is that good?

Well yeah, depends on what you face...look in your codex?