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So I had a little altercation with the store manager today at the local GW. The issue being:

While playing a game between me and a friend who was playing Necrons fielding Nemesor but using the Stormlord model, I said to my friend "dude get Nemesor already stop proxying the stormlord I was getting confused already'

[As a side note this was the second game my friend does that proxy. In our previous game he proxied a bunch of heavy destroyers without arms, so today i gave him 4 heavy destroyer arms free to help]

Any how the store manager butts in at my comment and starts ranting about how I shouldn't be one to talk as I some times proxy models without arms and my armies all look like crap because I don't paint.

To which i obviously take offense, and I state that yes on RARE occasion i proxy a model armless because i'm in the process of fully intending to get the weapons i want for it and do not wish to glue an undesired weapon on. In this game i had 1 such model was a Grey Knight terminator that was missing his psycannon because I still haven't bought the extra bit for it and do not want a psilencer/etc. However my argument is that plenty people at the store play with armless models as well, and as long as I let the opponent know that 'hey that dude missing the arm is carrying a psycannon' everything should be fine because in the end it's the same model hard to get confused, where as someone proxying an entirely different model is way more confusing, specially when they don't even point out that 'hey this dude is a different dude'

The manager then rants on about how using a different model is perfectly legal and in the book as 'count as' rule, and that my unpainted models lacking one of their weapons or both are disrespectful to the hobby and considered 'unbuilt models' for the purpose of the game and thus NOT ALLOWABLE at the store.

At this point i'm like 'WTF?' so I point out that for starters the hobby does not include painting as a requirement, I personally suck at painting and have no interest in paintain my stuff myself and have taken into consideration paying someone for commission paint jobs but even if I chose to leave them unpainted he can't tell me I can't play them on those grounds because from the first day I was introduced to the hobby 7 years ago I asked if painting was required, and was told NO, had it been a yes I would've never got into it because i know painting is definetly not my thing. [Just becuase i'm a good runner doesn't mean i have any interest in playing soccer]

So ultimately he tells me this is true that painting is not required but my models still look like crap and it pisses him off, and from now on unless a model is fully built [weapons on] I am not allowed to play it on his tables at the store for this is from today forth a house rule of the shop. To which I point out that i'm NOT the only person that has used or uses models without weapons at the store, my opponent to whom I was giving free heavy destroyer weapons to help him play a less confusing army with less proxy being a prime example, so he can't come try and single me out.

Then he tells me to finish playing my last game at the store.

At that point I snapped and insisted that he give me a good reason why I should be banned from playing at the store because his basis that i should be banned because I don't paint or use models with a weapon I don't want glued on doesn't seem like a good reason if even valid at that.

I've been in the hobby 7 years and the only time i've seen someone get banned at the store has either been for stealing or fighting. So can managers ban someone for ridiculous reasons such as this one? Can they house rule a no armless models on the tables policy, and is it ok to only enforce said house rule on 1 person?

I stayed after the heated argument, and played 2 more games. 1 against another necron player who proxied the Overlords with warscythe + res.orb that come in the Command Barge set, as a regular Lord with Staff of Light and did NOT tell me, to my surprise on turn 2 when the lord shot at me...[which is exactly why i'm against proxying entire models]

And the game after that Dark Eldar player was shooting at me with vehicles that had NO WEAPONS glued on...4 vehicles none of them with a weapon glued on. And again I was not told if they had weapons or what they even were if they did. And not a word from the manager....

So I go out of my way to point out any 'armless' proxies that I field, and i deserve to be banned, yet everyone else does it without even declaring it and Manager turns a blind eye.

Are these grounds for me to file a complaint against the Manager? He's a new Manager (2 years on the job now at the store i've been going for the past 7 years). So i've never had this sort of problem until now, and if these are grounds to file a complaint does anyone know the contact info because this dude really pissed me off today.

Disclaimer: I got through about the fourth paragraph.


Having that been said, it's a privately run business. They can demand anything of you that's not illegal, including your removal. Sounds stupid, as I got far enough to understand there was an offhand comment you made about a proxied model that seems to have started the ordeal. Sounds SO stupid, in fact, that I can't help but blame the victim here and wonder if there's not more to the story. If there's not, maybe he just didn't like your face, or something.

Your best bet is to not waste any more of your money at that store. From previous stories I've read, a written letter to the district office usually attracts attention, and might fix things, or at the very least, result in an uncomfortable phone call for the guy in question.

A better idea still would be to find a different store to offer your custom to, and encourage everyone else you know to go there instead. Personally, I hardly go to my FLGS to paint or play, not for issues with management, but simply because I find the kids usually distracting. I have a table set up in a spare room that I play on. I realize you live in NY, so space is probably limited, but it's a thought.

If you file a complaint, the manager will take it personally. Try to resolve the issue beforehand if you can. Be assertive, tell him calmly that you believe what he is doing is unfair - that if the house rule is to be imposed, it must be enforced universally, if at all. Don't blackmail him either, don't tell him you're going to file the complaint, only do it as a last resort, because once you go down that road, there is no turning back.

Anyone know the contact info for the district office then? So i can have this 'last resort'

Because really trying to tell me i can't field models lacking an arm as a proxy, yet allowing everyone else to do it is a whole new level of douchebagery from a store manager that no one likes.

This is the only GW in my area without needing a to take a 3 hour car drive out of state or to upstate new york.

So I would just like for him to stay in his box and not interfere in my games.

Were you possibly a bit rude to the manager? Just apologise and try to settle the matter with him.

Oh, and glue the bloody arms on your models! Playing with unpainted models is bad enough, playing with unassembled models is just plain ridiculous.

Have a chat man to man with the manager after the dust has settled, probably just bunched up panties.

And magnetize the arm if you have that hard of a time deciding. You can't give people crap for proxying when you're fielding unpainted pieces of models for units.

Yeah like and then I read about a third of this, dude. And then omfg and srsly wtf and yeah. Also, whoever it was rolling with having models without arms, just field Abaddon. It's all good then. Word!

With armless models why not just either magnetise, blu tac or fix with a small amount of super glue until you get your replacement arm that way you wont get the flak any more for it and will look a little better.

Yeah, I agree with the others mate, find a different store and go there instead. You could easily complain and you might even be justified, but if they don't take care of the manager and you have to go back there, what sort of environment would you end up having to game in?

Alternatively, be the bigger man and go and apologise and resolve the issue that way, regardless of whether you are right or wrong, this will end up being a neater way of resolving it for you.

Really I'm not sure why you even would have continued. Why fed his fire? After his first comment you should have just gone "Yea I guess I'm in no position to talk....back to the shooting phase" and moved on. It's that simple, you can defuse many situations by just...moving on. Now everyone has their panties in a tiffy for no good reason.

Hmm I never go to my local GWS because I don't have my license so I can't really way in to this lol. But I do find it interesting that your 4 largest armies are the same as my 4 largest armies ^^

Also, I find it hilarious that the 'proxying' the OP complained about in the first place was using a Necron lord with a staff to represent a Necron lord with a staff.

Zande4 wrote:Hmm I never go to my local GWS because I don't have my license so I can't really way in to this lol. But I do find it interesting that your 4 largest armies are the same as my 4 largest armies ^^

lol interesting indeed, similar amount of poitns in each aswell.

Crimson wrote:Also, I find it hilarious that the 'proxying' the OP complained about in the first place was using a Necron lord with a staff to represent a Necron lord with a staff.

You clearly missed the point. I complained because I saw the guy and thought 'oh he's got the stormlord' and was puzzled then he said 'this is Nemesor' and then i made the comment. The game was already under way and the unit was hidden.

I still don't see how proxying a whole model is 'better' than proxying an arm/weapon

_Lightbringer_ wrote:
Yeah like and then I read about a third of this, dude. And then omfg and srsly wtf and yeah. Also, whoever it was rolling with having models without arms, just field Abaddon. It's all good then. Word!

You. I like you.

But, you can't have Abaddon. We could however discuss a very generously priced timeshare....

The manager is well within his right to refuse you fielding unbuilt/proxied models.

Gaming within a GW store is basically helping to advertise the GW brand. If all the regulars are basically just treating the store like their personal pad and fielding nothing but grey plastic/resin, half-built crap and never put any effort into painting, well, it looks fething horribad from a buisness standpoint.
Very few parents will likely want to drop serious bills for Little Timmy to get into a hobby that looks like nothing more than somewhat more detailed army men they could buy at a dollar store!

We had the same problem at our local store a number of years ago... Very few people actually gave damn about appearences. Week in and week out, it was always the same grey crap crowding the table, some of it only half built. It hurt sales big time. You could see the majority of parents who brought their kids in looking at what was out on the gaming tables, then looking back at the demo table, then looking at the unwashed masses acting rudely while playing their games.
So we made new rules. No more proxies/half-assembled models. "Reasonable" progress had to be made on your models. (ie: at least prime your models within 3-4 weeks of building them, maybe slap a simple 1 colour basecoat on them within the next 2-4 weeks, add a wash later on, try some drybrushing, etc...) No more pretending you really are a Plague Marine! Any swearing and you'd be uncerimoniously booted out the door! Any sexual comments towards me, (I'm a girl - some nerds couldn't handel that fact!), and my 'Brothers' would have free riegn to teach you some proper manners!

Like it/agree with it or not, gaming in a GW store is still a privilage, not your right. If you don't like the Manager's new rules, then either ask for help with parts of the hobby you feel you're not adept at, or else look for a store that doesn't mind you playing with proxies/un-built models.

@OP. stop arguing with managers, spend 4$ on magnets, magnetize the arms and move on.

Proxying a dude with no arms is no less confusing than proxying an entire model to most people. Just because it seems obvious to you that your guy must have a pyscannon, doesn't mean it is to everyone else. Getting onto other people's cases about proxying when you do it yourself is pretty much "the pot calling the kettle black" (I'm from the south, deal with it ) Acting like your proxy is totally fine, and yet ranting and raving when others proxy in a slightly different way will come off as very hypocritical no matter how you slice it. What do you do when guys convert their own hero minis? Do you refuse to play them as well?

From what i gathered from the story, your temper escalated quickly with the manager, probably a bit too much. He may well have imposed his "rediculous" restriction just as a justification to throw you out without saying "you're being a prick". Relax a bit, and try to have a nice calm conversation with the guy to show him you're not a manchild who can't play well with others, and everything should be fine. It's probably just a big deal over nothing, and if you try to reach a reasonable conclusion with the manager, that should be problem solved. We all let our tempers get out of hand at times. Time to be the bigger man and try to resolve things peacefully. If it doesn't work out, oh well, looks like you won't be playing there anymore.

And I guess bluetac some arms on the guys at least, so you don't have to worry about a repeat of this incident. Wouldn't hurt.

This seems very fishy. I realize I'm new to the game and all, but this story doesn't add up.

Your version: You complained that someone was proxying. Store manager comes over, attacks you out of the blue for it, then bans you from the store. You stay and play 2 more games afterwards.

What likely happened: The manager pointed out the irony of your complaints, since you're obviously not bothering to glue arms onto models so that you can PROXY them as whatever you want. And not painting models so you can proxy your SMs as whatever Chapter you like. You blew it up into a confrontation because you got caught and felt silly. The manager told you that you're not welcome back, but gave you plenty of time and opportunity to apologize and set things right. You opted to play 2 more games, then come on Dakka and try to figure out how to file a complaint.

Iron Dragon wrote:
This seems very fishy. I realize I'm new to the game and all, but this story doesn't add up.

Your version: You complained that someone was proxying. Store manager comes over, attacks you out of the blue for it, then bans you from the store. You stay and play 2 more games afterwards.

What likely happened: The manager pointed out the irony of your complaints, since you're obviously not bothering to glue arms onto models so that you can PROXY them as whatever you want. And not painting models so you can proxy your SMs as whatever Chapter you like. You blew it up into a confrontation because you got caught and felt silly. The manager told you that you're not welcome back, but gave you plenty of time and opportunity to apologize and set things right. You opted to play 2 more games, then come on Dakka and try to figure out how to file a complaint.

I'm liking this explanation.

Basically they can refuse service to anyone with a few exceptions. They can not refuse service because of race, color, religion, or national origin.

Title II, “Injunctive Relief against Discrimination in Places of Public Accommodation,” section 201 states,

(A) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The manager is well within his right to refuse you fielding unbuilt/proxied models.

Gaming within a GW store is basically helping to advertise the GW brand. If all the regulars are basically just treating the store like their personal pad and fielding nothing but grey plastic/resin, half-built crap and never put any effort into painting, well, it looks fething horribad from a buisness standpoint.
Very few parents will likely want to drop serious bills for Little Timmy to get into a hobby that looks like nothing more than somewhat more detailed army men they could buy at a dollar store!

We had the same problem at our local store a number of years ago... Very few people actually gave damn about appearences. Week in and week out, it was always the same grey crap crowding the table, some of it only half built. It hurt sales big time. You could see the majority of parents who brought their kids in looking at what was out on the gaming tables, then looking back at the demo table, then looking at the unwashed masses acting rudely while playing their games.
So we made new rules. No more proxies/half-assembled models. "Reasonable" progress had to be made on your models. (ie: at least prime your models within 3-4 weeks of building them, maybe slap a simple 1 colour basecoat on them within the next 2-4 weeks, add a wash later on, try some drybrushing, etc...) No more pretending you really are a Plague Marine! Any swearing and you'd be uncerimoniously booted out the door! Any sexual comments towards me, (I'm a girl - some nerds couldn't handel that fact!), and my 'Brothers' would have free riegn to teach you some proper manners!

Like it/agree with it or not, gaming in a GW store is still a privilage, not your right. If you don't like the Manager's new rules, then either ask for help with parts of the hobby you feel you're not adept at, or else look for a store that doesn't mind you playing with proxies/un-built models.

If this were a rule enforced on everyone as it seems to be the case at YOUR store then it would be a non-issue.

The problem is that it is not a rule, it's done by several people and i'm the only one called out for it where as im the only one actually kind enough to inform opponents of proxies used, of which i use very few. I will admit any day that i blantantly don't paint its not my thing, guilty as charged but the proxy thing is a once in a blue moon thing on bits i havent received or waiting on order or something that is usually temporary and not rampant in any of my armies.

But I gotta love how some people on here get the story straight and yet make a concerted effort to twist the facts given. A dude posted his own version of what happened without actually being there smh

It's almost funny that some can think i can have enough 'grace' to post up my own faults in the story and yet be TOTALLY lying about everything else that was 'not' fault of my own. Yeah let's go with that version! Everything you say can and will be used against you, specially if it sounds like it shoudlnt!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regardless i'm not here to look for people that agree with me, I strongly feel discriminated against and wanted to ask from those that have been in the hobby longer than me if they know how to file complaints or if it's possible to be banned from a store for the above reason.

In the 7 years ive been going to that same store there's been 3 diff managers, and only 2 reasons ive ever seen/heard someone kicked out the store for has been stealing and fist fighting.

Bringing proxies/unpainted models seems rather ridiculous as justification.

You can be banned from any store if the store manager can show a reasonable cause for banning you if you take issue with it; I'd be interested in hearing the manager's view of this particular altercation (always best to hear both sides before passing judgement either way), but I don't know that he's got a reasonable cause in this case from what you've said.

I don't know if GW's got an official channel for filing complaints about staff, but start by calling or emailing the customer service people; they're very good at making sure people leave satisfied.

 Akaiyou wrote:
Regardless i'm not here to look for people that agree with me, I strongly feel discriminated against and wanted to ask from those that have been in the hobby longer than me if they know how to file complaints or if it's possible to be banned from a store for the above reason.

In the 7 years ive been going to that same store there's been 3 diff managers, and only 2 reasons ive ever seen/heard someone kicked out the store for has been stealing and fist fighting.

Bringing proxies/unpainted models seems rather ridiculous as justification.

As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

That said, try contacting the manager, or just go into the store to talk to him. That may clear everything up.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You can be banned from any store if the store manager can show a reasonable cause for banning you.

The manager does not even need reasonable cause. they can ban you for no reason.

I have a hard time buying the OP. Did he bust your balls about playing unpainted armless minis? Yes. Did you play with unpainted / armless minis? Yes. Whats the problem?

If you have a problem with other people proxying minis, why dont you ask to look at your opponent's army list before a game? If you're unsure as to what a model is or what it's supposed to be using, you're allowed to ask. As far as army list, composition and wargear is concerned, its all meant to be very transparent.

Op depends how long have your guys been armless? If its like a week ok if longer then you should really get on that.

New rules were implimented at my store as in no un build models and unprimed for a week at most. the games look better. Also small games mean you need less stuff so less to build and paint.

OP prime and basecoat your models atleast.

It does suck that you didnt know about the necron dude but I'm sure you cn read so you could have asked for his list combined with common sense to figure it out.

As an addendum to what I posted earlier: I felt guilty and apologized because I recently played in a tournament where I had one of my HQs that I speed-painted the night before not have a fully painted base that matched the rest of the army.

My doubles team took third place, and still I felt undeserving of the position.

my problem is not so much models proxied from other armies. For example a friend proxies a sphinx from fantasy as a daemon prince. That's an obvious proxy

What bothers me is when people proxy a rhino that is perfectly viable in a space marine list and then it turns out that it's not a rhino it's a land speeder..or a predator/razorback with no apparent alteration to indicate that it is such.

That's the type of thing im against.

I have played armless models mainly terminators with thunderhammer n storm shields because iw as working on getting the bits which i got within the month i'm not known as the guy with all the armless/weaponless models in fact I try to avoid proxy as much as possible while allowing plenty of it if i proxy something it's somethign im working towards getting as soon as i can.

The point is this wasn't problem until yesterday. And my armies while vastly unpainted given that i own 50,000+ pts of 40k stuff does have stuff painted (though not by me) I do try to get other people to paint for me or get em off ebay painted in bundles or what not.

But once more I'm not looking to defend my position i know I proxy once in a while before glueing an arm in or if i don't have the arm/weapon yet and I know for sure that I don't enjoy painting and im in the hobby for the 'game' these are things i clearly admitted to and do not deny. My beef is that this wasnt a rule and i was singled out and persecuted for it out of the damn blue.

While i dont paint i have been making an effort to get people to paint for me on commission so yes i didn't understand what the beef was out of the blue

Man, I usually just wave my hands and say "Dude its all good" when someone starts to go over what they have in their lists pre-game with me.... First of all, I don't really know any codices that I dont play, so anything I hear just slides out my head via the other ear anyway. Second, I couldn't give less feths what they have, The game will be fun depending on the person moving the models, not what fictitious 'hero' they represent.

Getting gak-pissed about failing to have asked what models your opponent is using sounds dickish to me (at least when it seems to matter so much to you). Make asking part of your pre-game ritual from now on. You seem to owe a few of the players from the store an apology, manager included.

You're TFG.

It's their store, they can do whatever they like.

Even if you are in the right, I'd apologise. If that shop is the only way to get games in, then do whatever.

Just attach the arms onto models before you play there!