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I'm not sure why its so hard to put arms on your guys... I have never heard of people leaving arms off coz they cant decide what weapon they have...

davou wrote:
Man, I usually just wave my hands and say "Dude its all good" when someone starts to go over what they have in their lists pre-game with me.... First of all, I don't really know any codices that I dont play, so anything I hear just slides out my head via the other ear anyway. Second, I couldn't give less feths what they have, The game will be fun depending on the person moving the models, not what fictitious 'hero' they represent.

Getting gak-pissed about failing to have asked what models your opponent is using sounds dickish to me (at least when it seems to matter so much to you). Make asking part of your pre-game ritual from now on. You seem to owe a few of the players from the store an apology, manager included.

You're TFG.

That you spend heavy money to mindlessly move your models on the table doesn't mean that there are no people who actualy care for the actual game aspect. If you actualy try too think a bit and outsmart your oponent then obviously you want to know what he's able to do.

The burden of informing about using proxies is on the guy using them. The OP could have exaggerated or be wrong entirely but who sounds really dickish is you imo with forcing your mindless overly laid-back attitude on others.

-facepalm-

anyway thanks to those that actually proved useful providing the information requested, I'll leave the rest to theorize as they like


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

davou wrote:
Man, I usually just wave my hands and say "Dude its all good" when someone starts to go over what they have in their lists pre-game with me.... First of all, I don't really know any codices that I dont play, so anything I hear just slides out my head via the other ear anyway. Second, I couldn't give less feths what they have, The game will be fun depending on the person moving the models, not what fictitious 'hero' they represent.

Getting gak-pissed about failing to have asked what models your opponent is using sounds dickish to me (at least when it seems to matter so much to you). Make asking part of your pre-game ritual from now on. You seem to owe a few of the players from the store an apology, manager included.

You're TFG.

That you spend heavy money to mindlessly move your models on the table doesn't mean that there are no people who actualy care for the actual game aspect. If you actualy try too think a bit and outsmart your oponent then obviously you want to know what he's able to do.

The burden of informing about using proxies is on the guy using them. The OP could have exaggerated or be wrong entirely but who sounds really dickish is you imo with forcing your mindless overly laid-back attitude on others.

My thoughts exactly

To all those saying something along the lines of 'if you don't know what weapon, just magnetize or glue one on for the time being', the OP said that he knows what weaponhe wanted, he just didn't have the parts.

Now then, it does seem you were being a bit like a hypocrit, but at LEAST (if you are telling the truth) did tell your opponents what they were.

Now, the manager making a house rule about no proxies/unpainted models/unbuilt models, while a pain and unfair, does have to effect anyone, so him saying that you can't play because of that but letting everyone else play is definately not fair.

Now, are you really banned or were you kicked out?

If you were kicked, then just undercoat/basecoar your models, and if you are waiting for pieces, don't use that model. Then he has no reason to not let you play.

If you were banned, try and find a non-GW FLGS near you, if none then maybe try and find some players in your area (Dakka has a 'find a game' section, just post a topic in there saying you're looking for people to play against but can't go to the store)

Either way, you should appoligise, be the bigger person!

As said, complaining is a last resort.

You got 3900 Points of Knights and no Terminator wit a psycanon?


And you have:

1. Tyranids - 13,900 pts
2. Black Legion - 6,300 pts
3. Orks - 5,800 pts
4. Necrons - 4,000 pts
5. Grey Knights - 3,900 pts
6. Ultramarines - 3,800 pts
7. Eldar - 2,600 pts
8. Black Templar - 2,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 2,300 pts
10. Dark Angels - 2,100 pts

unpainted?

i have 4,000 pts of nids painted (had someoen else do it for me)

currently i own over 50,000 pts of stuff clearly most of it unpainted because as mentinoed i just dont enjoy any part of painting.

The house rule started during the discussion he basically declared it a house rule. And didn't enforce it on anyone except me because people were playing missing weapons on their stuff the same as I was...yet no one else got addresed.

Friend right infront of me had his whole army unpainted as well...no word to him either.

Hmmm...what seems off with this picture?

While most of my stuff is infact unptained and i do not deny the facts, I stated them myself i do have some stuff painted (not by myself) and the rest of the stuff waiting inline for commission work whenever the money becomes available.

So I don't understand if it was the way I wrote it but the whole me being 'hypocritical' I just don't see it.

I am known for being a strong adherer to the rules often being asked by other players about rules to the game and when i don't know i come here to ask..

I most definetly 100% of the time that i proxy anything let my opponent know during deployment or before game starts. Because the rule is that identifying proxies is the burden of the person doing the proxy.

So what upsets me is when I play someone fielding a rhino that takes off as a land speeder midgame. I see a rhino, i strategize for a rhino, set up to counter a rhino and get hammered by a land speeder.

Similarly if I see an overlord with a warscythe and I consciously avoid getting to close to his unit with my marines because I dont want to be mindshackled and then slapped with S7 AP2 attacks in melee only to find out he has a staff of light and can shoot me instead without any mention of this.

That's the sort of thing I call out and say 'come on man...you serious?'

In the case of Stormlord/Nemesor i've played my friend several times...the stormlord USED to be a stormlord, he played 1 game proxying him as nemesor before...in this game I saw the stormlord and thought 'hey stormlord' and then discovered turn 1 oh wat the heck that's suppsoed to be Nemesor again? And thus the comment about the proxying the full model being confusing.

10 games he's the storm lord
last 2 games he is Nemesor, first time it was pointed out that it would be used as a proxy, second time it was an easter egg. Perhaps my friend expected me to make a connection due to the last game, but in my last game as a 1 off proxy you know to 'try it out' there was no indication of a continued proxy

store manger took me to one side as i always talk about
other makes/ebay dakka....not allowed...but wait the new WD
refers to plasticard and chicken wire which GW dont sell!!!!

Clearly we'll be seeing more escaped chickens in the future then.

As already stated, you can be banned for any reason that wouldn't be classified as discrimination. and the customer isn't always right.

Personally speaking, i dislike playing against tinboyz, because it looks, well, icky. Proxies i can accept, hell, just this week i was allowed to proxy Bjorn the fell handed as a rifleman dread since i didn't want to buy the bits from FW until i'd played with them at least a couple of times, and my opponents were more than happy with that, but on the off chance it would have been an issue, i prepared 2 lists, 1 with, and 1 without rifleman dreads.
Generally however, the rule is WYSIWYG, so its easy to tell at a glance what the units are equipped with. it is a royal pain to have to take notes on what your opponent has, and far easier for all involved to do without that unit/upgrade/vehicle until you have it yourself.
I have a personal rule not to play with a unit in my army that isn't, at the very least, basecoated with 3 colours (necrons being the exception) This generally means the games i play are smaller than my collection would otherwise allow, i have the equivalent of a C:SM battle company, but only about 1/3 of it is painted right now

I also understand that some people simply do not like painting, and thats fine and dandy, BUT, painting even to a basic standard is extremely easy, and takes next to no time. a friend of mine hates painting, so he just uses army painter sprays and washes. he painted his entire 2500 point Grey knight army in an afternoon. silver basecoat, some gold on the details, wash, and base. i think he managed most of it while watching a single DVD. they wont win any painting awards, but they look far and away better than a collection of plastic and metal figures on a battlefield, and with some slight variations in colour schemes you can easily tell units apart. He is far and away the fastest speedpainter i know, all to avoid that 'boring painting nonsense'.

To the OP: I can't really comment on the argument and banning, but I'm curious if you guys give each other army lists to read over before the game. In my gaming group, we are a bunch of poor bastards, or have too many other obligations to spend a ton on GW, or just like to mess with other armies from our core armies from time to time, so several proxy like mad. I'm talking construction paper cutouts for vehicles, tupperware for tanks, the whole nine yards. I think some people on here would have an aneurism if they saw some of our games We keep it straight by looking over the lists before the games and explaining what is what as we deploy, and asking questions if there is any grey area.

The point is, I would recommend always reading the other guy's list before the game if for no other reason than to know if the models on the table don't jive with what's shown on paper. Especially in your case as some people that run only one or two armies may not really be familiar with anything else, but with the large scope of your collection, you should be able to look at 90% of the lists out there and know pretty much what everything is and what it does.

On a side note, I think I tend to be in the minority who would rather look at a grey/black/white horde than a badly painted army (which is subjective of course). This is why it takes me so long to paint my stuff (that and everybody else wants me to paint their stuff too). I don't paint fantastic (sure as hell not going to win any major painting comps anytime soon), but I put enough time and effort into it that it looks pretty good on the table...but I'd rather have that bare grey plastic model on the table than slap a sloppy mess of paint on it to appease those offended by a naked model

The manager has the right to not allow anyone who he deems disruptive or rude in the store. Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on if you make it an official complaint.

On the topic of proxying this has devolved into: you're a hypocrite, suck it up.

 Griddlelol wrote:
The manager has the right to not allow anyone who he deems disruptive or rude in the store. Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on if you make it an official complaint.

On the topic of proxying this has devolved into: you're a hypocrite, suck it up.

This. The story doesn't add up to me. Also the whole "I've got enough money to have several thousand pts of models, but I can't afford/be troubled enough get a couple sets of arms"

Good riddance , seven years and you still can't paint your models? Don't let the door hit you in the bum on the way out!

 Necroshea wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
The manager has the right to not allow anyone who he deems disruptive or rude in the store. Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on if you make it an official complaint.

On the topic of proxying this has devolved into: you're a hypocrite, suck it up.

This. The story doesn't add up to me. Also the whole "I've got enough money to have several thousand pts of models, but I can't afford/be troubled enough get a couple sets of arms"

He could be waiting for them to appear in the mail.

Private businesses have full authority to ban customers or refuse them services for any reason, aside from racial/sexual/religious bias. So, regardless of his behavior in this circumstance, he was fully within his rights. I honestly think he banned you for not showing him any respect. Seems he came over to you, told you to stop complaining, and then you bitched at him. Giving someone lip is the easiest way to get your ass thrown out. Sometimes you'v gotta be the better man.

 Akaiyou wrote:

While playing a game between me and a friend who was playing Necrons fielding Nemesor but using the Stormlord model, I said to my friend "dude get Nemesor already stop proxying the stormlord I was getting confused already'

[As a side note this was the second game my friend does that proxy. In our previous game he proxied a bunch of heavy destroyers without arms, so today i gave him 4 heavy destroyer arms free to help]

...

In this game i had 1 such model was a Grey Knight terminator that was missing his psycannon because I still haven't bought the extra bit for it and do not want a psilencer/etc. However my argument is that plenty people at the store play with armless models as well, and as long as I let the opponent know that 'hey that dude missing the arm is carrying a psycannon' everything should be fine because in the end it's the same model hard to get confused, where as someone proxying an entirely different model is way more confusing, specially when they don't even point out that 'hey this dude is a different dude'

I'm sorry, remembering a single model is 'X' is harder than remembering a model missing an arm is carrying 'Y'? I think the reason you had a negative reaction from the store owner had a lot more to do with your attitude than any specific actions you described in your story.

Call and complain to corporate. Don't waste your time in GW's stores. There is a reason GW can't keep hem in business. Find a nice local hobby shop and support them. No holier than thou neckbeards in my local scene.

He's probably not getting any love from his wife, you should forgive him and give him a hug and tell him that you're sorry and tell him you just want to play games

Yeah, good idea. Try to get him fired from his job, because you showed poor manners and made a scene in the store he manages.

I can't believe anyone in this thread would agree with the OP. There's so much blatantly left out of this story, and it's obvious. A manager wouldn't ban someone from their store on a whim. There's way more to this than is being said here.

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order. By spending money at the GW store you are exercising your right of free speech. You do not have the right to refuse service in America as long as the transaction is legal.

(No sale of alcohol, spray paint, cigarettes, porn to minors ect).

You cannot be "banned" from a store in America. Walmart can "ban" you but they do so through the proper legal means. They even post a picture of you in all the stores in your area (also illegal).

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

You don't have to have any reason to get one. They hand them out like candy. Now you can play there but the D-bag can't show up to work while you're there.

So he'll either have to change his scedual around yours, or be fired for causing the problem in the first place.

Nerd world problems?

maybe im missing something, but i agree that if you dont want to paint or whatever, and want to proxy an unarmed model thats fine - but if you are fielding an army like that, dont criticise other people for their issues!

either you play wysiwyg, in which case you should both field wysiwyg painted models or you play casual in which case unpainted and proxied models are fine.

you cant be casual yourself yet criticise others for their own casual aspect. its just not cricket.
lifes too short to worry about opponents models. who cares

my brother fielded a rizla multipack box against me 3 games in a row acting as a thunderfire cannon.
i refuse to let him buy the actual model now as we've renamed the codex entry the "rizla cannon" so i'd count a real thunderfire cannon as a proxied rizla cannon now

not sure if thats relevent but thought id say it anyway

regarding being banned from the store, assuming we arent just hearing one side of the story here and there werent other factors not mentioned, i think a store ban was a bit extreme and agree with the sentiments of buying him a beer and challenging him to a friendly game to make up

hakuna matata my friend

 DeffDred wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order...
You cannot be "banned" from a store in America.

Yes they can ban you from a store as it is private property.

A private business does not have to sell its wares to everyone that wants them. They can refuse service to anyone as long as it is not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin.

 DeffDred wrote:
Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

If you show up, and they do not want you there, you are trespassing, and they can have you arrested.

 DeffDred wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order. By spending money at the GW store you are exercising your right of free speech. You do not have the right to refuse service in America as long as the transaction is legal.

(No sale of alcohol, spray paint, cigarettes, porn to minors ect).

You cannot be "banned" from a store in America. Walmart can "ban" you but they do so through the proper legal means. They even post a picture of you in all the stores in your area (also illegal).

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

You don't have to have any reason to get one. They hand them out like candy. Now you can play there but the D-bag can't show up to work while you're there.

So he'll either have to change his scedual around yours, or be fired for causing the problem in the first place.

Service may be refused provided said refusal is not in anyway illegal (such as discrimination due to race, age, gender or sexuality).

In addition a restraining order would not be issued if it would affect an employee's ability to work.
The fact that attendance in the shop as a customer is completely voluntary means that any issues you may have that occur only within the shop can be avoided by simply not setting foot in said shop.

Also, the manager gave the OP plenty of time, he was well within his rights to remove the OP from the premises immediately but did not. Instead he allowed the OP to finish the game he was playing, have TWO further games and then allowed him to depart under his own terms. It hardly rings true that this was a malicious and directed attack by a store manager, hell from the moment he stated the OP was banned he was within his legal rights to phone the police and have the OP removed on grounds of trespass. Purchase of an item within a store does not prohibit the store from removing you otherwise vandals would buy cheap candy then destroy the store.

 Akaiyou wrote:
my problem is not so much models proxied from other armies. For example a friend proxies a sphinx from fantasy as a daemon prince. That's an obvious proxy

No, that's "counts as". Something utterly different.

 DeffDred wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order. By spending money at the GW store you are exercising your right of free speech. You do not have the right to refuse service in America as long as the transaction is legal.

(No sale of alcohol, spray paint, cigarettes, porn to minors ect).

You cannot be "banned" from a store in America. Walmart can "ban" you but they do so through the proper legal means. They even post a picture of you in all the stores in your area (also illegal).

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the gffuy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

You don't have to have any reason to get one. They hand them out like candy. Now you can play there but the D-bag can't show up to work while you're there.

So he'll either have to change his scedual around yours, or be fired for causing the problem in the first place.

Needless to say, Deffdred is not a lawyer, and doesn't have a single clue what he's talking about. You can try doing any of the dumb gak he's suggested, but I'd suggest making sure you wait until the local cops are having a slow day and need something to laugh about.

Simply apologize, even if you're in the right.

Suck up your pride and apologise for the way you acted. Tell him you're very sorry and it won't happen again, that you love this hobby and would be grateful to be allowed to continue to play in his store.

You don't have to mean it, just be convincing and humble. You said this is your only nearby store, is it worth losing games for the sake of your pride?

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining ord

In a private business they can ask you to leave at any time and you must comply. If you don't it's called "criminal tresspass" and they can call the police to have you removed.
Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200$
Enjoy your criminal record at that point.

It sounds like the OP smarted off to the manager and got a reaction. My advice would be to either find another store to play in or if playing there is THAT important, then contact the manager's direct supervisor and get a second opinion...but I would nto get too hopeful about that option. If he's a decent employee and there is not a track record of customer complaints against him he'll probabaly support his staff member over a single whiney customer.

Oh, and paint your freeking models. A can of Army Painter colored spray primer and a bottle or can of dip is quite cheap and you can finish a whole army to a two color bare minimum standard in an evening. There really is no excuse to have totally unpainted models on the table more than once.

All I can think of reading this thread is this:




I remember a time when GW stores around me had a rule that your models had to minimally be primed in order to play them.

 Bookwrack wrote:
Needless to say, Deffdred is not a lawyer, and doesn't have a single clue what he's talking about.

You are correct, sir!

I love an angry rant.