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2012/10/21 11:14:32
Subject: Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter
Honestly If Blue Table Painting were using this campaign to fund the production of their own line of miniatures/paint sets/brushes/tutorial books/ DVDs Etc. i would have absolutely no problem with it. But since they aren't, it means they're using this Kickstarter campaign purely as publicity to sell services which they are already offering from their website.
I've already reported this campaign, im not too proud to admit it. But if this type of KS is allowed then what's to stop other businesses from trying to use Kickstarter to sell their everyday regular services.
2012/10/21 11:25:39
Subject: Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter
And Kickstarter hasn't really had a "no business" clause. They just had a "make sure it is a project and something new gets created and that it is not a 'I want to start a business/fund my life' project".
2012/10/21 11:25:46
Subject: Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter
It seems like the bottom feeders are coming out now and putting stuff up on kickstarter hoping to get a quick buck. One guy wants money to cut foam boards for people and now these guys want money to paint armies to sell.
I'm hoping this easy money grab stuff will subside quickly and legitimate projects will again take shape. My wallet, on the other hand....
Mr Gutsy wrote: Honestly If Blue Table Painting were using this campaign to fund the production of their own line of miniatures/paint sets/brushes/tutorial books/ DVDs Etc. i would have absolutely no problem with it. But since they aren't, it means they're using this Kickstarter campaign purely as publicity to sell services which they are already offering from their website.
I've already reported this campaign, im not too proud to admit it. But if this type of KS is allowed then what's to stop other businesses from trying to use Kickstarter to sell their everyday regular services.
That is pretty much exactly how I feel.
2012/10/21 13:30:32
Subject: Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter
Panic wrote: yeah,
I used the report this project button. You all should do this too.
They are just selling their wares via kick starter.
They even give up making up rewards at the end and just offer increased store credit...
"If you pledge $5,000 you will get $5,750 worth of credit towards your assembly and painting. If you pledge $7,500 you will get $8,750 worth of credit towards assembly and painting, and for $10,000 you can get 20% more than what you pay for with a $12,000 dollar credit towards painting and assembly."
I'll be watching to see if kickstarter close their 'project'.
Panic...
Why should I report this. I don't care what they do. If people pay enough to fund them, then why should I interfere with that? If they don't make enough the result is the same.
A lot of other businesses have done the exact same thing on Kickstarter, but no one cared because they liked what they were selling. If it doesn't concern you, let it be
2012- stopped caring
Nova Open 2011- Orks 8th Seed---(I see a trend)
Adepticon 2011- Mike H. Orks 8th Seed (This was the WTF list of the Final 16) Adepticon 2011- Combat Patrol Best General
2012/10/21 14:12:08
Subject: Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter
No, if it concerns him he has every right to hit the report button. If you don't want to, that's fine... but that doesn't mean he isn't entitled to his opinion, too.
Personally, I think the higher reward levels ($12K of store credit for $10K) will likely be removed or modified by Kickstarter... but we'll see.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/21 14:21:07
If you click the report button, there is a "Prohibited rewards" choice. That's what I clicked... if they check it out and decide they're fine with it, then no problem. However, KS has taken steps recently to try to create distinction between themselves and a simple preorder mechanism, and I think they might not look too kindly on a store simply offering discounted store credit as a reward.
But like I said, if they look at it and decide it meets their criteria, that's fine... but I do think it was worth pointing out.
Regardless, I doubt this will hit $40k (funny that they chose that number ) in which case this would be irrelevant.
Honestly, part of the 'offense' of this particular company and not say 'mantic' is that everyone can paint to some degree and believes they can do a better job then they are seeing.
This is a strange standard to hold anyone's professional vrs hobby work to. Already stated was the speed at work and the preparation, but if the issue is truly with second store-fronting....then it would have served better to take on a bigger dog then a painting outfit of some small operation in a single thread. I notice that the makers of zombicide were not called out either? did they suddenly run out of money from the first two games they kickstartered and successively completed?
Lets be honest, its kickstarter's own policy now people are disliking. until you simply stop using the kickstarter system altogether, nothing will change. Or expect to see many more successful companies using it like a circumvention for cash in-fluxing to their midlisting business models.
I'm just honestly shocked that they were once pimped out as a top notch painting service, and now we here from other posters that they .... were not.
As for the projects that they do, what exactly do they charge for in the painting services, anyway? Do they buy the armies for you and paint them, or are you supposed to be sending them the minis?
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
I know I should let old topics die, but pedos? Really?
What would you call it? Rape-fantasies of "barely-legal" girls in overtly sexual school uniforms? Much better I guess.
O.o
Here we go again......
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
2012/10/21 15:31:39
Subject: Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter
On topic, I'm actually a fan of BTP, not necessarily their work, I haven't seen it, but thier youtube channel is quite entertaining. As far as the KS though, I think it's pretty poorly thought out, well, "Knowing" Shawn the owner of BTP, badly thought out is probably quite far from the truth, perhpas "misguided" is a better word. Looking at the project, theres really nothing there to entice me to get involved, I don't see anything ground breaking or worthy of a KS project, it's a bit like Ford doing a kickstarter to design and build a Fiesta, surely if I wait it'll happen anyway, basically it looks like they are asking for 40K just to do what they do?!?!? and what is the relevance of the 40K? Just to buy stock?
I think BTP need to go back to the drawing board with this, and think about doing something original. They run this gaming convention type affair called Valhalla, that would be something to make into a KS project IMHO!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/21 15:37:31
Mr Gutsy wrote: Honestly If Blue Table Painting were using this campaign to fund the production of their own line of miniatures/paint sets/brushes/tutorial books/ DVDs Etc. i would have absolutely no problem with it. But since they aren't, it means they're using this Kickstarter campaign purely as publicity to sell services which they are already offering from their website.
I've already reported this campaign, im not too proud to admit it. But if this type of KS is allowed then what's to stop other businesses from trying to use Kickstarter to sell their everyday regular services.
That is pretty much exactly how I feel.
Yup. As someone who makes most of his income doing freelance with mini painting on the side, I feel like Mr Gutsy's post summarized it nicely: a tutorial is fine, doing nothing but attempting to accelerate their business model seems... off. For me, as a freelance artist, it's like saying "Hey guys, I'd really like more business and more inventory, so here's a discount" and calling it a Kickstarter. Actually, it's a lot like that. I'm not sure what the difference is. (As above, I feel there's nothing wrong with the production stuff Gutsy talked about. Hardly new, but new ideas aren't a requirement.)
If miniatures had a more regular assembly, I'd consider funding a kickstarter for someone to buy a bunch of robotic arms with airbrushes attached that you could stick miniatures in front of. Then the arm would spray on paint along pre-programmed paths, just like the the auto and other industries do.
Sadly, the cost is extreme and I'm not sure if the arms currently have enough precision to do so yet.
It might also be easier just to use the latest color 3d printing tech.
But yeah, not really interested in paying for someone else's paint.
I am somewhat taken aback here. I always thought that blue table painting was a top notch army painting service. I knew that they were expensive, but I didn't find their prices any more out of my reach than the other services out there. After seeing a few of their projects on this forum, it really looks like all they are doing is airbrushing 3 colors and then doing a few glazes.
I guess that's how he keeps his costs down and is able to pay his employees.
Lets try and be fair here though, I haven't seen any pictures of his top tier painting services, only the lower level. 1500 dollars is pretty cheap for a fully painted army from these guys.
2012/10/21 20:37:41
Subject: Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter
gannam wrote: 1500 dollars is pretty cheap for a fully painted army from these guys.
It is?
Anyway, this campaign illustrates the beauty of Crowdfunding - I doubt it is going to reach it's goal, but it will be interesting to see which way the 'votes' go!
2012/10/21 20:38:42
Subject: Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter
gannam wrote: I am somewhat taken aback here. I always thought that blue table painting was a top notch army painting service. I knew that they were expensive, but I didn't find their prices any more out of my reach than the other services out there. After seeing a few of their projects on this forum, it really looks like all they are doing is airbrushing 3 colors and then doing a few glazes.
I guess that's how he keeps his costs down and is able to pay his employees.
Lets try and be fair here though, I haven't seen any pictures of his top tier painting services, only the lower level. 1500 dollars is pretty cheap for a fully painted army from these guys.
I would not classify they quality to cost as a value for money.
You can get a much cheaper service with superb quality for 50% of that price from countries like Poland or Ukraine, just need to search for.
Example, random guys, this quality:
http://white-tree.pl/?page_id=922 for less than 750$ ...
Kickstarter for stocking up, that's not what I would call "creative project".
Also ,this web miniwarbid.com have an option for setting reversed auctions for Art Commissions,I like this idea much. Perfect tool to get Value for money and for freelancers looking for some work! I wish them luck!
Well, maybe they should go on Kickstarter?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/21 20:54:49
2012/10/21 21:09:28
Subject: Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter
gannam wrote: I am somewhat taken aback here. I always thought that blue table painting was a top notch army painting service. I knew that they were expensive, but I didn't find their prices any more out of my reach than the other services out there. After seeing a few of their projects on this forum, it really looks like all they are doing is airbrushing 3 colors and then doing a few glazes.
I guess that's how he keeps his costs down and is able to pay his employees.
Lets try and be fair here though, I haven't seen any pictures of his top tier painting services, only the lower level. 1500 dollars is pretty cheap for a fully painted army from these guys.
I would not classify they quality to cost as a value for money.
You can get a much cheaper service with superb quality for 50% of that price from countries like Poland or Ukraine, just need to search for.
Example, random guys, this quality:
http://white-tree.pl/?page_id=922 for less than 750$ ...
Kickstarter for stocking up, that's not what I would call "creative project".
Also ,this web miniwarbid.com have an option for setting reversed auctions for Art Commissions,I like this idea much. Perfect tool to get Value for money and for freelancers looking for some work! I wish them luck!
Don't see why anyone would contribute to this. Even if you are getting painted minis. Either you are getting terrible terrible painted miniatures, or the paint jobs are so inconsistent would be afraid to order from them.
Here is a Firestorm Armada fleet The Editor from TMP ordered from BTP a while back
I'm no where near a great or good painter, but even being legally blind I feel that my FSA paint jobs were better.
Spoiler:
If anyone has better images of their work as I don't feel 1 project of photos warrants the entire BTP crew's skill. But not sure if I would pay someone who's skills worse than mine or inconsistent paint jobs.
The quality of the work notwithstanding, this does look like a valid kickstarter. He is creating something of value - the miniatures do have value above and beyond what they would have straight out of the box. The fact that he counts some of his kickstarter as store credit towards BTP services is worrying though.
$40Kwould buy a ton of product from GW. I hope this guy has a business license so he can get product at wholesale prices from GW.
I have heard several stories of people being unhappy with the level of service they get with their miniatures. I've heard it's really more for rich 12 year olds than for veteran wargamers who already know how to paint.
He should really buy figures in bulk from Reaper, and paint those assembly line style. If he was really smart, he'd start a kickstarter to produce a sprue of a dozen fantasy figures and paint those.
I've heard that people are flirting with having their stuff painted in China, that if the models are all the same pose, there are places you can send it to.
Good to see that they hiring though, in this economy, they're one of the few people who do so.
Looking for the Empire spearmen from the Warhammer sixth edition box set (empire vs orcs) Must be unpainted and in good condition. Also looking for MIB Empire State Troops boxes.
Looking for Battle for Macragge and Black Reach Tactical squads, unpainted and unassembled.
Grot 6 wrote: I'm just honestly shocked that they were once pimped out as a top notch painting service, and now we here from other posters that they .... were not.
As for the projects that they do, what exactly do they charge for in the painting services, anyway? Do they buy the armies for you and paint them, or are you supposed to be sending them the minis?
I think people are over-reacting.
Can you get better paint-jobs by hiring your personal Golden Daemon Winner? Sure (if you can find one that would be willing to paint up buckets of basic infantry for you).
But for a company bound on putting out good table-top quality armies with a decent turnaround, they are delivering what they promise. They wouldn't be around for nearly a decade now if their customers weren't happy.
I've heard that people are flirting with having their stuff painted in China, that if the models are all the same pose, there are places you can send it to.
Good to see that they hiring though, in this economy, they're one of the few people who do so.
Painting is worth anything someone is willing to pay for. To some people it is such a chore or becomes too time consuming for them to do feasibly so they are willing to pay top dollar for someone to handle all of that.
With that said if someone is willing to put money into the project why not? It is not like they are swindling people or not following through with their promises. They have been out for quite some time and have many examples of their work.
I would never personally want to pay for someone to paint my miniatures because that is the best part of the hobby for me. But i wouldn't look down on people who have their armies painted it is better than playing against unpainted minis.
Z, that video does look good. However, I think the knock on BTP is more their consistency (depending on the painter you get / etc, you could get a good or bad result) than whether or not they are capable of some fantastic work.
Are you a past customer, happy with the service you received?
No. No experience whatsoever with BTP.
I am interested in Kickstarter... to the point that I do blog quite a bit about it too (blog.pinsofwar.net)
I just happend to have gotten a lot of flak on dakkadakka in the past for (quietly) critizising Mantic, Reaper, etc.. for using Kickstarter as a second store front (did anyone ever doubt that Mantic would not be able to do DreadBall if their KS didn't succeed? Miniatures on pre-order from retailers before the corresponding "stretch-goal" was even achieved, etc..).
The discussion here is the logical next step I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: Z, that video does look good. However, I think the knock on BTP is more their consistency (depending on the painter you get / etc, you could get a good or bad result) than whether or not they are capable of some fantastic work.
Perhaps. Maybe they have a consistency problem. However, the video above shows that they clearly do more than just some dipping and dryshading as some people claimed above.
Some of that empire army isn't even that great (for professionals.. not saying I'd do better). I've certainly seen better banners for example. But it shows that they do put effort into it, magnetizing stuff, carefully painting eyes, some freehand, etc.., etc.. . And for an army like that (what is it? 150 or so Empire Infantry?), I can see why some people would be willing to pay for it or how there might be a market for "Turbo Armies" pre-stocked in a common colour-scheme.
It's not the second coming of the iPhone, but it's a business idea of sorts.
Indeed, getting an assembly-line of standard colour schemes that sell painted from stock just might get rid of the consistency problem too and give BTP a niche to themselves, whereas they might not be able to compete with guys like Golem Painting or Worthy Painting at the highest prestige-level.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/10/22 12:59:44
BrookM wrote: Is it bad that I couldn't make it past the first nine seconds of their pitch movie?
"Shockwave of happiness!! By the way that's no extra charge, by the way, you get that as a bonus..."
No extra charge? That's very generous of you, particularly when you are asking for my money to help make you more money. /sarcasm
Seriously though, this kind of thing has to be bad in the long run right? Whether or not it breaches the KSTOS, if this kind of chaff fills up the site then that's less exposure for the truly innovative stuff that needs proper crowdsourcing.
I'm pleased some of you guys are expressing your displeasure by reporting it. But do you think it likely KS will pull it? I was surprised to learn that they take a massive 5%, so they have no real incentive to take it down.
If KS are happy that their site is no longer a right-minded place to provide opportunity for inspired designers unable to get to the next stage, and is now some premium ad-space for companies unwilling to risk investing in themselves, then it will eventually go down the toilet. And something better will take over.
This seems BTP is merely taking advantage of KS visibility for the purposes of advertising and has cobbled together some flimsy "project" to check the boxes. I wonder if it was something they came up with at a brainstorming session. (I get that vibe from the PAKS).
This KS along with its video is just ...tasteless.
