Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751320573/blue-table-paintings-turbo-army-kickstarter/comments

I think we got officially declared as "enemies".

Deleted: Not worth the hassle...

Enemies huh? Ex-employees lifting the lid on his poor business practices and how little they are paid for their work now makes them enemies? Or those commenting here on the forum, for just saying the obvious - That the quality and service on offer isn't justifiable for the cost?

Besides the guy is a Libertarian fan. Wouldn't this be the free market speaking, and loudly?

He could always go Galt...

12thRonin wrote:
Or this shows what the market will bear out for their service for this. Personally, I can't believe they charge money but that's me.

You can't believe they charge money? For painting figures? Not sure what you're saying or suggesting here.


Interesting spin on the linked KS comments, though.

BTP wrote:
So update. Some of our bigger backers got super excited and decided to just do their projects. They didn't want to wait.

yeah,
With 5 days to go it looks like he's thrown the towel in.
This should never have been a kick starter anyway I hope they realise that.

On the other hand seeking funding to make a tutorial DVD that could have been a winner.

I'm not sure what to make of BTP expecting a 40k boost to your day to day business via kickstarter and then calling/making enemies of those that call you out on it.
meh...

Panic...

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
With 5 days to go it looks like he's thrown the towel in.
This should never have been a kick starter anyway I hope they realise that.

On the other hand seeking funding to make a tutorial DVD that could have been a winner.

I'm not sure what to make of BTP expecting a 40k boost to your day to day business via kickstarter and then calling/making enemies of those that call you out on it.
meh...

Panic...

As far as I understand now from the two topics, all their better painters have left. So I'm prety sure any number of the DVD's from cool mini or not would be a better vavlue for your money then anything BTP could put out.

yeah,
Didn't know they were losing their top painters... Sounds like bad news for a painting company.

What I was kinda getting at is if they had of done a kickstarter for 5k to make a DVD.
Lots of people would have supported them, wanted the DVD and placed $5-$100 KS backings.

Once the ball was rolling and the DVD production was receiving praise from the community and funding was secure 5K+, they could have placed some high value BTP options in the mix and we would not have reacted the way that we did as we would all be on side.

How many people complained that the mcVeys should not be selling their painting talents on KS ? .. none, we were all too distracted by the game.

Plus once funding was secure they could hire back their top painters...

Panic...

The comment in question:

Hey guys.

So update. Some of our bigger backers got super excited and decided to just do their projects. They didn't want to wait. The truth of the matter is, that other than the DVD's, we can just help you guys with your project anyhow. You're always welcome to send a shout to bluetablepainting@gmail.com. To be honest with you, I think we did lose a little steam when we got so much bad publicity, that's just the way that happens. It's hard sometimes to stay really excited about something when you get a lot of negativity about it you know? There are so many of you that are so good to us, but on occasion those that are vocal and harsh are really quite loud.

Anyhow, we are still here and not going anywhere despite what some people, who I would rightly call enemies, would have you believe. We'll be here, doing what we do, for a long time. Send us an email and we'll get your order going. We'll just do the turbo army the old fashion way. One at a time. You'll have a lot less of a selection at first, but we'll get to where we're going one way or the other. Who knows, maybe some people will jump on here and pledge the other 20K, but either way, I hope we'll hear from you soon my friends.

You guys are so great! Talk to you soon. You don't have to worry about cancelling pledges or anything like that. If it doesn't fund, it doesn't fund. Plus if some of our great benefactors jump on, maybe it goes through after all!

-Robert

Some odd things in there, but... I do love a crowdfunding site!

The ultimate 'Vote With Your Wallet' experience!

I find it ironic that he complains about former employees. Maybe if he ran a better business he wouldn't have to worry about disgruntled former employees.

 scipio.au wrote:

12thRonin wrote:
Or this shows what the market will bear out for their service for this. Personally, I can't believe they charge money but that's me.

You can't believe they charge money? For painting figures? Not sure what you're saying or suggesting here.

I find it funny that they charge money outside of materials for the quality they put out. Their quality is what you put out for a friend you're helping out who just wants to get something quick on the table. Their sample models are laughable for the quality level they charge. I would say that base and wash isn't that hard to do, but most of their work isn't even at that level based on their gallery. Most of it is barely a step above priming and detail. Minimal if any shading, sloppy lining, and it's just silly. Anyone who was going to throw $1-3k at this and then pulled back probably did so because they saw the pics of their work.

 Panic wrote:

How many people complained that the mcVeys should not be selling their painting talents on KS ? .. none, we were all too distracted by the game.

The game was the product produced by the Kickstarter, the painting service was an add on premium reward. This is just a service (as opposed to a contained product, which is what KS was designed for). Its the difference between someone wanting money to invent a new type of lawnmower and offering landscaping as a reward after its put into production, and someone wanting money to buy lawnmowers and gas to open up their landscaping business and offering to sell you landscaping once they get going.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
which is what KS was designed for

Source?

Personally pleased this looks likely fail as I don't think the community needs another maelstrom situation so soon.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
which is what KS was designed for

Source?

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines

 SickSix wrote:
I find it ironic that he complains about former employees. Maybe if he ran a better business he wouldn't have to worry about disgruntled former employees.

You can't please everyone.

12thRonin wrote:

Source?

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines

I can't believe people are still beyoching about "what kickstarter was designed for". It's made for crowdsource funding. If it doesn't belong up there then the site users will say so with their wallets (or lack there of).

 Zweischneid wrote:


Even using my browsers search function, the word "product" isn't mentioned once in these guidelines. Much less anything like "contained" or the like.

Why look, right here in point one:

A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended.

Blue Table's goal here is to start a business selling off the shelf painted armies. There's no defined project here, they just want a load of start up cash so they can get stock in. They will then continue selling these armies.

 BlueDagger wrote:
I can't believe people are still beyoching about "what kickstarter was designed for". It's made for crowdsource funding. If it doesn't belong up there then the site users will say so with their wallets (or lack there of).

That pretty much sums it up nicely, and it is something I've been saying from the start!

If anyone feels that this project doesn't belong on kickstarter, there is a "report this" button on the bottom right side of the screen under the backers rewards levels.

 TrojanArt Painting wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
The thing I find most mystifying is... why set the funding goal so high? I mean, other then a possible allusion to the major game system, putting it at $40k just seems foolish.

Reaper went for $30K and made $3.4 million.

BTP went for $40K . . . perhaps he wanted to pay off the building and buy an island or two.

This is like the third site I have seen you bash BTP. I understand that you my not like BTP or Shawn but to go on so many sites and bash the guy is petty. All the while you have your paint studio in your post name or tag line or signature. Funny how that works I guess

While I didn't contribute nor do I plan too, I don't understand that people take joy in the fact that BTP did not hit their goal. Once again seems petty and low.

Blagging 40k worth of fake trade off fans under the pretense of saving wargaming isn't ?

Bossk_Hogg wrote:


Kickstarter themselves. I get your lips are firmly sewn to Blue Tables ass like a sad human centipede, but this is clearly a service "paint other minis/mow lawns/cut hair" and not a project able to be completed. An individual mini sculpt project is complete when the mold is completed, and the mini itself finished and ready for sale. Painting other people's minis for them is never finished.

Since you seem to love semantics (the last bastion of the wrong), doubtless you'll try and argue that Reaper, Mantic, or whoever is just in the "service of sculpting and casting minis for people". However you don't seem to be having any luck convincing anyone but yourself to that point of view.

Wow. Much vitriol there.

Yes, I seem to be very much in the minority here as I see little qualitative difference between a Kickstarter to make sculpts and a kickstarter to make paintjobs. It continues to be an endless source of bewilderment for me why people take such (passionate?) effort to "define" what Kickstarter "is" (even in clear contradiction of what Kickstarter themself seem to do).

Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting. Will Reaper never make a new Bones sculpt beyond the KS?

To me, it doesn't seem to fit your logic, even if the project "stops" at a completed sculpt. If a company can continue to "sculpt" beyond the sculpts funded through Kickstarter or musicians can continue to "record" more albums beyond an album recorded with the help of KS, surely another company can continue to "paint" beyond the paint-jobs funded through Kickstarter, no?

Here's an interesting one. What about the AntiMatter Games "mini-kickstarter". Does this de-legitimize the DeepWars Kickstarter because they continue it with "more sculpts" (meaning it clearly wasn't a finished thing the first time around)? Is it "ok" because it is a "new" project (despite just being more miniatures on top of the old KS).

Similar for the Blackwater Gulch "Reinforcements" Kickstarter. Seems to blur the boundaries of what is a "finished" project quite a lot, or not? Could just be that they are stocking more designs for the injection moulding machines. No?

Bossk_Hogg wrote:


It also specifically violates their "no web business" rule.

"Projects, projects, projects. As in all categories, Kickstarter is for projects that can be completed, not things that require maintenance to exist. This means no e-commerce sites, web businesses, or social networking sites. (Yes, this means Kickstarter wouldn’t be allowed on Kickstarter. Funny, but true.) "

Penny Arcade

http://www.customercrossroads.com/.a/6a00d8341bfffd53ef0134860888d9970c-popup
(6th point in particular, particularly when dealing with BTP)

Sculpts are products. Paint jobs are not products, but services.

And also since you don't seem to understand what a project scope is: http://management.about.com/od/PMterms/g/Project-Scope.htm

12thRonin wrote:


Sculpts are products. Paint jobs are not products, but services.

Agreed.

But neither "products" nor "services" is mentioned anywhere on the KS site, as I mentioned above. Those are not relevant criteria for KS.

Nothing says you cannot do a Kickstarter for services.

From your link:

Definition of a Service: Any act or performance offered that is essentially intangible and does not result in ownership of any thing"

Kickstarter has explicit categories for things like "performance art" or "public art". Go check them out.
8

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics

Everything on Kickstarter must be a project. A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it.

By definition, this means a product, not a service by your own acceptance of a service definition.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Definition of a Service: Any act or performance offered that is essentially intangible and does not result in ownership of any thing"

Kickstarter has explicit categories for things like "performance art" or "public art". Go check them out.

This is a finished product.

12thRonin wrote:

Definition of a Service: Any act or performance offered that is essentially intangible and does not result in ownership of any thing"

This is a finished product.

Those are intangible and do not result in ownership of any thing. A public display of art. A theatre performance. Etc.. . By the definition you linked, they are services.

If you equate the use of the verb "produced" with a hard-and-fast criteria that excludes services, they'd all be in violation of KS ToS.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting.

Of course they will. Their Kickstarter was to get the game itself out (a finished product, or project that is over). It successfully funded, the stretch goals allowed them to get funding in for the releases for the near future. The BTP Kickstarter is for... stock. Some undefined armies they want to buy, roll into their business model, and sell on later.

I'm sorry you can't understand the difference (and keep challenging people to tell you what it is, then ignoring the responses). I guess it's all academic anyway seeing as this KS is going to fall flat on its face (and hopefully put off any similar potential KS cashgrabbers that were thinking of launching).

Anyhow, we are still here and not going anywhere despite what some people, who I would rightly call enemies, would have you believe. We'll be here, doing what we do, for a long time.

I love his comment about not going away. It reminded me of speeches made by the Axis leaders at the end of WWII. Well, from what I read so far this guy's ego is bigger than the sun but his management and business sense is smaller than an marble. My 2 cents, I'm out.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Those are intangible and do not result in ownership of any thing. A public display of art. A theatre performance. Etc.. . By the definition you linked, they are services.

Incorrect. Ownership of the public art would be with either the government or the administrators in charge of the space. Performance art is owned by who produces and holds the copyright on it. They both also result in an end product of either the work of art or the performance piece.

If you equate the use of the verb "produced" with a hard-and-fast criteria that excludes services, they'd all be in violation of KS ToS.

Only if you're being willfully ignorant.