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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
She should be prepared to encounter men who behave in a bad way.

Look, I agree. And if she was a little girl and I was her dad, I'd make sure she knew that.

But she's a grown woman and I am not her dad. This reiteration about whether or not she was prepared to be sexually harassed has nothing to do with the fact that she was, that she was offended by it, that she refused to remain silent on the issue, and that we shouldn't be telling her to shut up about it.

 Manchu wrote:
She went to a comic book convention dressed as Black Cat. Nothing about that scenario should make her worried about being sexually harassed. To insist over and over and over again that she should be prepared, have an expectation, basically be afraid, is talking about the WRONG issue.

When did i say 'be afraid'?

Being aware is not being afraid, it's about realism. She should not have been sexually harassed, but she was and it was a likely thing that she would have received comment, not that she should, but that she would and did.

They asked some dumb questions. I wonder how many of us have "harassed" women at a bar with gakky pick up lines? Or not got the hint from a woman before?

Your standards are too low. If you can't tell the difference between bad pickup lines and the jackassery quoted, then you're not qualified to express an opinion on talking to women.

But again, if most experiences are great, and this ONE thing was questionable, why is it news?

Are you kidding? Are you not aware of the difference between "dog bites man" and "man bites dog"?

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Lemonade from lemons I guess.

I personally feel good whenever I get hit on, no matter how bad it is so I guess I look at it different.

Given that you keep equating the situation at hand to being hit on, yes, that seems apparent.

 Manchu wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
She should be prepared to encounter men who behave in a bad way.

Look, I agree. And if she was a little girl and I was her dad, I'd make sure she knew that.

Not what i read from you for the last page of responses, you seemed to be saying that 'well it was wrong and anyone talking it down is terrible'.

 Manchu wrote:

But she's a grown woman and I am not her dad. This reiteration about whether or not she was prepared to be sexually harassed has nothing to do with the fact that she was, that she was offended by it, that she refused to remain silent on the issue, and that we shouldn't be telling her to shut up about it.

Quite right, she was treated badly and was right not to stand for it, but on the great scheme of things it's a minor footnote on the sliding scale of evils. What I've argued here is that she encountered a minor incident and what I read from her and in the national newspaper was blown up out of proportion. If, however, she feels sufficiently moved by the experience, there are shelters for abused women that are looking for female volunteers to come and help.

Who are you to say they werent hitting on her just doing a terrible job at it? Where you there?

Unfortunately, it's the daily mail, we can't say what happened.

Honestly I doubt she was acting like Hannah Minx does or anything.

What's blowing it out of proportion? Why can't a person call out jerks on their blog?

Maybe she got more publicity because she's hot, but that's hardly an injustice. No doubt she got treated that way in part because she's hot. The jerks deserve to be stood up to and called out on their bad behavior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Who are you to say they werent hitting on her just doing a terrible job at it? Where you there?

No, he read the article. To argue otherwise the way you're doing is to ascribe dishonesty toward her. Blaming the victim, so to speak.

Nigri is a pretty big attention whore regardless, the guys are douchebags but she's revelling in the attention this drama has caused.

 Mannahnin wrote:
What's blowing it out of proportion? Why can't a person call out jerks on their blog?

Maybe she got more publicity because she's hot, but that's hardly an injustice. The jerks deserve to be stood up to and called out on their bad behavior.

I agree, but this incident is not worthy of a national newspaper. or even a citywide newspaper(unless it was a really small town)

What this is worthy of is her complaining to the Con's organizers and 1) having them make an announcement that such behavior will not be tolerated and 2) have the offending guys in question banned from the Con.


This deals with the situation appropriatly and fairly.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Not what i read from you for the last page of responses, you seemed to be saying that 'well it was wrong and anyone talking it down is terrible'.

Well I do think it's inappropriate to talk it down.

I mean, we have a vested interest in this as wargamers. We want our wives, girlfriends, sisters, and friends to feel comfortable around the things we like. Talking down an incident of sexual harassment tied up in "geeky" culture runs contrary to that and contrary, too, to what should be our wider commitment in this regard.

The most bothersome thing about the guy sticking his ass in her face and asking her to spank it is how crass it is. Doing that kind of thing in front of a crowd is crap, whether the girl is into it or not. Carrying on with the act when she's not into it is even worse.

And that really is at the core of what's wrong with this situation. Dressing up in a pretty sexual costume means you're going to get some level of sexual interest, and I think the girl knew that and probably doesn't mind it. But that doesn't mean that any kind of attention is welcome. You can, in fact, give a girl some suggestive attention without demeaning the both of you, and it's a lesson a lot of geeks need to learn.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
But we're not just talking about view, but treatment and behavior. The potential employer would be within their rights to disregard you, but not to harass or abuse you because of your outfit.

And again nobody said she SHOULD have been abused. But just like I shouldn't be surprised my velour suit didnt land me a job, she shouldnt be surprised her provocative dress could provoke a response.

The level of response she experienced should be totally surprising

I agree, but this incident is not worthy of a national newspaper. or even a citywide newspaper(unless it was a really small town)

What this is worthy of is her complaining to the Con's organizers and 1) having them make an announcement that such behavior will not be tolerated and 2) have the offending guys in question banned from the Con.

Why is it not worthy of a crappy rag like the Daily Mail? It's a tabloid that probably published the story mostly as an excuse to report on/post pics of hot girls.

Publicly pointing out that this kind of behavior is not okay and should not be tolerated at cons is useful and good. It both speaks to the unsocialized and tells them it's not okay, and it encourages women and others to stand up and speak up if jerks are making people uncomfortable.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Blaming the victim, so to speak.

Dakkanauts have been openly and notoriously doing that since page one of this thread, It's been an eye-opener. Whenever I go to my comic shop or LGS, my wife never wants to go in because it's awkward. I'm always saying "hey, no, it's no big deal" but this makes me see a bit of what she sees.

Guys, let's all take a deep breath and relax.

Then, can we look at the real victims here? Creepy weirdos have like two events they can attend annually and hang out with other creepy weirdos (No offense, which means you legally can't be offended). These events have in recent years been invaded by people who have glommed on to the rising 'coolness' of the subject matter. I mean seriously, how many sweaty nerds, even if they can afford it crash high fashion events? Damned few. So now you have this new crop of attractive people who show up to things like this - which for them is one of 365 days of having fun in a year because hey - they're pretty, and get mad at some doofus who gets to maybe cram this weekend in amongst the 51 others of being disliked and generally ignored and/or denigrated by society at large - and has the audacity to act slightly inappropriate towards some complete stranger who is dressed up as his masturbatory fantasy who he has dreamed about all his life. I mean, yeah, anyone who is not a social idiot knows how to read girls - if she isn't into you lay off. But some of these people, especially in these circumstances can't tell. When I lived over in Germany, I didn't go around calling everyone a bunch of jackasses because their beer wasn't cold enough, they just didn't know any better. I didn't get mad at people because they didn't speak my language, which seems to be what a lot of this boils down to.

And your white-knighting of this topic is somehow going to change the fact that there are weirdos everywhere?

That somehow donkey-cave guys are only relegated to the nerd circles of the world?

Or maybe this is a non-issue intended to make money for everybody involved?

Any hobby or interest where there is people means there are gonna be some social misfits there. Football or Warhammer. Its just easier for a paper to demonize a group that already has a bad track record with women. But go ahead showing this woman as a paragon of virtue is really going to help nerds look better as normal people read this website, not the paper. Oh wait.

Clearly its not ok to harass anyone. But saying its so cut and dry that men=evil and women=never evil isnt exactly true.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
And your white-knighting of this topic is somehow going to change the fact that there are weirdos everywhere?

That somehow donkey-cave guys are only relegated to the nerd circles of the world?

Or maybe this is a non-issue intended to make money for everybody involved?

Any hobby or interest where there is people means there are gonna be some social misfits there. Football or Warhammer. Its just easier for a paper to demonize a group that already has a bad track record with women. But go ahead showing this woman as a paragon of virtue is really going to help nerds look better as normal people read this website, not the paper. Oh wait.

Clearly its not ok to harass anyone. But saying its so cut and dry that men=evil and women=never evil isnt exactly true.

Was that directed at me?

 Bromsy wrote:
Guys, let's all take a deep breath and relax.

Then, can we look at the real victims here? Creepy weirdos have like two events they can attend annually and hang out with other creepy weirdos (No offense, which means you legally can't be offended). These events have in recent years been invaded by people who have glommed on to the rising 'coolness' of the subject matter. I mean seriously, how many sweaty nerds, even if they can afford it crash high fashion events? Damned few. So now you have this new crop of attractive people who show up to things like this - which for them is one of 365 days of having fun in a year because hey - they're pretty, and get mad at some doofus who gets to maybe cram this weekend in amongst the 51 others of being disliked and generally ignored and/or denigrated by society at large - and has the audacity to act slightly inappropriate towards some complete stranger who is dressed up as his masturbatory fantasy who he has dreamed about all his life. I mean, yeah, anyone who is not a social idiot knows how to read girls - if she isn't into you lay off. But some of these people, especially in these circumstances can't tell. When I lived over in Germany, I didn't go around calling everyone a bunch of jackasses because their beer wasn't cold enough, they just didn't know any better. I didn't get mad at people because they didn't speak my language, which seems to be what a lot of this boils down to.

This this 1000 times this. You win the thread hands down.

oh, I assume not then.

No Bromsy not at all.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
But go ahead showing this woman as a paragon of virtue is really going to help nerds look better as normal people read this website, not the paper. Oh wait.

Clearly its not ok to harass anyone. But saying its so cut and dry that men=evil and women=never evil isnt exactly true.

Did you post that bit in the wrong thread? Because it doesn't seem to be even remotely related to the discussion in this one...

Why the heck does it matter if it was "worthy " of a newspaper or not? That's really the newspaper issue, right?

 insaniak wrote:

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
But go ahead showing this woman as a paragon of virtue is really going to help nerds look better as normal people read this website, not the paper. Oh wait.

Clearly its not ok to harass anyone. But saying its so cut and dry that men=evil and women=never evil isnt exactly true.

Did you post that bit in the wrong thread? Because it doesn't seem to be even remotely related to the discussion in this one...

Except Manchu was just talking about how we as a group of nerds need to denounce this behavior on this website as that will somehow get more women involved in our hobbies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
Why the heck does it matter if it was "worthy " of a newspaper or not? That's really the newspaper issue, right?

The newspaper issue to me is that comic con goers are already painted in quite a bad light, and another article about how were all maladjusted cretins who only oggle women doesn't help. Lets be honest, this is one of the most minor instances of sexual harassment I have ever seen, and if you think articles like this help our cause, I'd like to see how.

Sure you could argue that by taking a stand were showing that we dont condone this behavior, but again, who reads this site but nerds? Very few Id guess.


Newspaper makes money selling article. "Harassed" girl makes money promoting website. Everybody wins. Except for our community. Now Im not saying she wasn't subjected to inappropraite behavior that she shouldn;t have had to deal with. But if like she says every other time was fine, why is she denouncing the community from such a public forum? The link to her website at the end tells me why. YMMV.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
But go ahead showing this woman as a paragon of virtue is really going to help nerds look better as normal people read this website, not the paper. Oh wait.
Clearly its not ok to harass anyone. But saying its so cut and dry that men=evil and women=never evil isnt exactly true.

Did you post that bit in the wrong thread? Because it doesn't seem to be even remotely related to the discussion in this one...

Except Manchu was just talking about how we as a group of nerds need to denounce this behavior on this website as that will somehow get more women involved in our hobbies.

No, you're misunderstanding. We need to stand up to jackasses in real life, and make clear that antisocial behavior and being nasty to and creeping women out is not acceptable. That starts with acknowledging those simple fact when we talk to one another.

The newspaper issue to me is that comic con goers are already painted in quite a bad light, and another article about how were all maladjusted cretins who only oggle women doesn't help. Lets be honest, this is one of the most minor instances of sexual harassment I have ever seen, and if you think articles like this help our cause, I'd like to see how.

Once again I don't know how you are getting this out of the facts at hand. No one is painting con goers in general in a bad light except the people who are defending the donkey-caves. The women from the original incident made a big and specific point of saying that the vast majority of guys at these things are NOT like these over the top cretins. You're not doing anyone any favors by equating them with regular nerds; even unsocialized ones.

 Manchu wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Not what i read from you for the last page of responses, you seemed to be saying that 'well it was wrong and anyone talking it down is terrible'.

Well I do think it's inappropriate to talk it down.

I mean, we have a vested interest in this as wargamers. We want our wives, girlfriends, sisters, and friends to feel comfortable around the things we like. Talking down an incident of sexual harassment tied up in "geeky" culture runs contrary to that and contrary, too, to what should be our wider commitment in this regard.

I do have a vested interest, my wife games and has attended several dakkacons with me and come with me to gaming stores. I'm pleased to say she's only encountered good behaviour but I've seen bad behaviour from a gamer towards a woman in the store once and the rest of the gamers were so quick to jump down his throat he visibly wilted on the spot.

I do want it talked down, it was a minor incident and now it's on a national newspaper, reinforcing stereotypes and, at the same time, plastering this lady's breasts all over the article (double standard? I think so, but that's the gak rag that is the daily mail). So some soccer obsessed idiot bastard can sit there, enjoy the tits and nod to himself that these events are indeed, populated by sad bastards that can't get a woman. When I meet these dullwits at work and tell them I paint and play with toy soldiers, they can remember articles like this and lump me into that category.

Denigrating crimes towards woman should be combated, but whilst we've all been arguing about the severity of this woman's suffering due to attending a large party with her tits hanging out to be told 'Oi you've got tits!', several women have been killed in domestic violence incidents, several women have been raped and several women have been murdered by men who'd been stalking them.

There are bigger fish to fry, but, of course, they don't get into the newspaper articles, because who'd want to look at pictures of a woman's face beaten to a pulp when you can look at a hottie in a catsuit...

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Except Manchu was just talking about how we as a group of nerds need to denounce this behavior on this website as that will somehow get more women involved in our hobbies.

No, he wasn't.

He was saying that it shouldn't be accepted, period, and that dismissing it as 'She should have expected it' rather than decrying it as the unacceptable nonsnese that it is is simply not on.

The newspaper issue to me is that comic con goers are already painted in quite a bad light, and another article about how were all maladjusted cretins who only oggle women doesn't help.

This wasn't such an article. You need to go back and read it again. As Mannahnin said, she very clearly said that most con-goers aren't like that.

The only people this paints in a bad light are those who behaved like animals, and those who defend their actions.

If you think the average reader is getting out of this article that its only a few con goers your giving the average reader to much credit.

 MrScience wrote:
I don't get overly sexual cosplays.

I sure don't mind them

(Unless they're guys, but I doubt that comes up too much...)

I just think that this chick wanted attention and publicity, so she dressed up like a tart and then when people started noticing, she tells everyone it is completely innapropriate and uncalled for so she can start a big case, sue, and possibly get rich. This kind of thing is real common. Dunno why this one is gettin' so much hype

I just think that this chick wanted attention and publicity, so she dressed up like a tart and then when people started noticing, she tells everyone it is completely innapropriate and uncalled for so she can start a big case, sue, and possibly get rich. This kind of thing is real common. Dunno why this one is gettin' so much hype

Shredsmore, you've completely missed the point and misunderstood what's happening and said several false things. You should feel bad. Thank you for exemplifying why we need to make a stink over incidents like this, and expect better from our fellow gamers.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
If you think the average reader is getting out of this article that its only a few con goers your giving the average reader to much credit.

I'm not too worried about the average reader, as I don't have a nerd persecution complex. I care more about what the article actually says, and how our community responds to it and to the incident (and others of its kind).