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rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
"..that are able to DS..." Can a Veil'tek DS? Can it use the VoD to enter from Reserves? Yes it can. How you say, VoD wargear rules plus FAQ answers those questions.

No, it cannot Deep Strike - during its movement phase it can opt to use the Veil which uses the Deep Strike rules - there's a difference.

Or are you ignoring the FAQ that says Deathmarks cannot Deep Strike if they have a Royal Court member attached?

No I am not ignoring anything, I pointing you the very specific FAQ:

Necron FAQ v1.1 wrote:
Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving onto the board
when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes

Specific trumps Generic, correct?

Specific rule FAQ for VoD trumps generic Cryptek FAQ.

Note that its not allowing you to Deep Strike - it's allowing you to use the veil. There's a difference.
And it's a Deathmark FAQ, not Cryptek one. Which, being that its a Deathmark unit, would be more specific.

It is generic with respect to the Cryptek, if a Veil'tek is with DM then it can DS using the VoD.

I will also refer you to the VoD wargear rule which clearly says that the "..cryptek and his unit.....immediately DS back onto the battlefield."

So using the VoD = DS onto the board.

Yes, using the Veil allows you to use the deep strike rules. I've never said it doesn't.

It does not give the Cryptek the ability to Deep Strike. As the Deathmark FAQ proves, Royal Court members cannot Deep Strike with a Deathmark unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, using the Veil allows you to use the deep strike rules. I've never said it doesn't.

It does not give the Cryptek the ability to Deep Strike. As the Deathmark FAQ proves, Royal Court members cannot Deep Strike with a Deathmark unit.

Now who is ignoring rules?

The VoD rule says the 'Tek and his unit "....DS back onto the battlefield."

How do you define that rule?

Phased Reinforcements is usable by units 'in reserve' and 'able to deep strike'

The disagreement seems to be over the 'able to deep strike'

The PRO position seems to be reading it 'able [at some point in time] to deep strike'

The NO position seems to be reading it 'able [right now has the USR] to deep strike'

RAI, the NO position seems much stronger to me, especially given the faq entry clarifications for crypteks.

RAW, it seems to be a conflict between possessing an ability de facto Vs de jure. I would lean towards PRO. My understanding currently is that a reserved unit with the DS USR that did not elect to DS at deployment is still eligible for Phased Reinforcements.

I play Necrons and would not try this in a game. If my opponent tried it in a friendly game, I would ask for a roll off. In a tournament, I would call the TO.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
All this talk about USR's and generic Crypteks is meaningless.

It's really not.

You have to declare you're going to Deep Strike at deployment to use Ethereal Interception.
A Cryptek with a veil cannot declare he is going to Deep Strike as he does not have the USR. The FAQ only allows them to Deep Strike instead of moving onto the board. Another FAQ clarifies that a Deathmark unit cannot Deep Strike if not everyone has the USR.

Show me where a Cryptek with a veil has the Deep Strike SR and you'll convince me.

I don't have to, as stated, Phased Reinforcements grants an exceptions to the rules. Plain and simple.
"....any number of units in Reserve..." not Deep Strike Reserve,
"..that are able to DS..." Can a Veil'tek DS? Can it use the VoD to enter from Reserves? Yes it can. How you say, VoD wargear rules plus FAQ answers those questions.
"..can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via DS,...." That grants exceptions to any "movement phase" restrictions.

add it all together and Veil'teks can enter play via Phased Reinforcements

There's no such thing as deep strike reserves, only reserves. Deep strike reserves is a "term" but not a "thing".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, using the Veil allows you to use the deep strike rules. I've never said it doesn't.

It does not give the Cryptek the ability to Deep Strike. As the Deathmark FAQ proves, Royal Court members cannot Deep Strike with a Deathmark unit.

Now who is ignoring rules?

The VoD rule says the 'Tek and his unit "....DS back onto the battlefield."

How do you define that rule?

Read the ghost walk mantle rules, that is more explicit on what veils do, seeing as it "is" a type of veil of darkness.

Or really, just read this entire thread as all of this has been hashed out.

foolishmortal wrote:
Phased Reinforcements is usable by units 'in reserve' and 'able to deep strike'

The disagreement seems to be over the 'able to deep strike'
The PRO position seems to be reading it 'able [at some point in time] to deep strike'
The NO position seems to be reading it 'able [right now has the USR] to deep strike'
RAI, the NO position seems much stronger to me, especially given the faq entry clarifications for crypteks.
RAW, it seems to be a conflict between possessing an ability de facto Vs de jure. I would lean towards PRO. My understanding currently is that a reserved unit with the DS USR that did not elect to DS at deployment is still eligible for Phased Reinforcements.
I play Necrons and would not try this in a game. If my opponent tried it in a friendly game, I would ask for a roll off. In a tournament, I would call the TO.

For phased reinforcement, it's a timing thing.
The Deep Strike USR does not prevent you from deep striking during an opponents turn. It's the BRB reserves rule that tells you when.
The Veil doesn't give you Deep Strike USR, it gives you deep strike type movement, with the additional restriction of during the Crypteks movement phase.
Veil has a limitation that Deep Strike does not. The Ghost Mantle carries the same turn/phase specific limitation. The Phased Reinforcements bypasses the reserve limitation of both rolling for reserve, but doesn't tell you to ignore the Veils limitation of only on the Crypteks own turn.

Deathmarks have Deep Strike USR and as such can deep strike normally. If you attach a Royal Court member, they are prevented from the use of Deep Strike USR.
If that attached Royal Court member has a veil, they can use Veil to deep strike with the veils limitation, (but not USR deep strike); as Marks+Cryptek is more specific than just Marks, and Marks + Cryptek with Veil is most specific.

-Matt

In general, yes, but in a strict RAW interpretation, I think this is one of those cases where the vagueness implies a Yes, rather than a No.

Phased Reinforcements checks for 'able to Deep Strike', not DS USR. A reserved unit with the DS USR that did not elect to DS at deployment is still eligible for Phased Reinforcements. Given that 'able' seems to include a potential choice in the past, I would not preclude a potential choice in the future.

Again, this is my strict RAW opinion. I would consider this to be a highly weasel-like argument, and accordingly adjust my respect for someone who used it.

foolishmortal wrote:
In general, yes, but in a strict RAW interpretation, I think this is one of those cases where the vagueness implies a Yes, rather than a No.

Phased Reinforcements checks for 'able to Deep Strike', not DS USR. A reserved unit with the DS USR that did not elect to DS at deployment is still eligible for Phased Reinforcements. Given that 'able' seems to include a potential choice in the past, I would not preclude a potential choice in the future.

Again, this is my strict RAW opinion. I would consider this to be a highly weasel-like argument, and accordingly adjust my respect for someone who used it.

You're missing the point that they must arrive via deep strike if they utilize these rules, and they can not use the wargear outside of their own movement phase. There really is no further debate on this, crypteks and obyron can not utilize phased reinforcements or ethereal interception.

Please clarify, what 'X' must arrive via deep strike if they utilize 'Y' rules. I assume you mean 'units in reserve able to Deep Strike' and 'phased reinforcements', in which case, No I did not miss anything.

You seem to be saying that a unit must be declared as deep striking in deployment in order to be eligible for Phased Reinforcements. I do not believe that is the case.

foolishmortal wrote:
Please clarify, what 'X' must arrive via deep strike if they utilize 'Y' rules. I assume you mean 'units in reserve able to Deep Strike' and 'phased reinforcements', in which case, No I did not miss anything.

You missed the rule that VoD may only be used during Crypteks movement phase. Phased Reinforcements happen during enemy turn -> You cannot use VoD, so you're not able to DS. End of discussion.

There are also two separate rules disputes: Is unit with VoD able Deep Strike (unconditionally)?
And the second rules dispute is do you have to declare unit is Deep Striking to use Phased Reinforcements or not.

Luide wrote:
You missed the rule that VoD may only be used during Crypteks movement phase. Phased Reinforcements happen during enemy turn -> You cannot use VoD, so you're not able to DS. End of discussion.

No, didn't miss it. I didn't base my (rather stupid) RAW position on somehow using VoD during my opponent's turn. That would be foolishness to an untenable level. No, my RAW Pro position is based on tenable (barely) foolishness.

The VoD wargear allows the unit to deep strike - not all the time, not with the DS USR, but at some time, past or future, withing the framework of the VoD rule, yes.

I thought the faq entry that allowed the VoD to be used from off the board was also particularly dumb.

Luide wrote:
There are also two separate rules disputes: Is unit with VoD able Deep Strike (unconditionally)?

Is anyone arguing for this? I haven't seen it. VoD absolutely does not grant the DS USR nor does it allow a unit to DS unconditionally.

Luide wrote:
And the second rules dispute is do you have to declare unit is Deep Striking to use Phased Reinforcements or not.

I thought this was settled already, in the affirmative. If it is not settled, then I withdraw my earlier RAW argument.

VoD allows a unit to use the Deep Strike rules. It does not allow a unit to Deep Strike.

Looks like something Similar to a unit with a Libby with GoI.
In either case they don't have the DS usr

rigeld2 wrote:
VoD allows a unit to use the Deep Strike rules. It does not allow a unit to Deep Strike.

Read the Necron Codex again, it says "Deep Strike" not some other wording that "uses the rules for Deep Strike" I would concede that the GWM does have that wording and so I would not push for that in the case of the OP's question.
But the Veil'Tek can.

it says the unit "immediately Deep Strike" back into the board. The VoD is no different from Termie armor in that it grants the ability to DS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Looks like something Similar to a unit with a Libby with GoI.
In either case they don't have the DS usr

No, the Libby power can't be used to enter the Game from Reserves. That is what makes the VoD different and able to take advantage of Phased Reinforcements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:
You missed the rule that VoD may only be used during Crypteks movement phase. Phased Reinforcements happen during enemy turn -> You cannot use VoD, so you're not able to DS. End of discussion.

There are also two separate rules disputes: Is unit with VoD able Deep Strike (unconditionally)?
And the second rules dispute is do you have to declare unit is Deep Striking to use Phased Reinforcements or not.

The word ONLY is no where in the VoD rules. Not sure where people are getting that from.

For the first, only restriction is where the unit is locked in combat or not, otherwise yes, the VoD can be used unconditionally aside from basic game rules. i.e. not in the shooting or assault phases.

Second, I don't have any opinion on this, to be safe, I would declare it anyway. However the FAQ would suggest that Veil'Teks do not have to declare anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:


There's no such thing as deep strike reserves, only reserves. Deep strike reserves is a "term" but not a "thing".

`

Exactly, so any unit in Reserve, not just units that declared for DS because there is no distinction when units are in Reserve.

 Kevin949 wrote:


Read the ghost walk mantle rules, that is more explicit on what veils do, seeing as it "is" a type of veil of darkness.

Or really, just read this entire thread as all of this has been hashed out.

No, the GWM is more specific to what the GWM does. I suggest you do some more reading, the VoD rules are clear, crystal even.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
VoD allows a unit to use the Deep Strike rules. It does not allow a unit to Deep Strike.

Read the Necron Codex again, it says "Deep Strike" not some other wording that "uses the rules for Deep Strike" I would concede that the GWM does have that wording and so I would not push for that in the case of the OP's question.
But the Veil'Tek can.

it says the unit "immediately Deep Strike" back into the board. The VoD is no different from Termie armor in that it grants the ability to DS.

" ... can use it in its movement phase instead of moving normally. "
It says they're removed from the field and immediately DS back in.

Nothing in there gives the Cryptek the Deep Strike SR which is what PR requires - because it requires the unit to be able to Deep Strike. The unit explicitly cannot Deep Strike, per the FAQ you feel it convenient to hand wave away.
And really - comparing VoD with Terminator armor? They aren't even worded remotely similarly.

Veil in no way gives you allowance to DS from reserves.

"back into the board", your words not mine.

therefore they had to be on the board to begin with.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Veil in no way gives you allowance to DS from reserves.

"back into the board", your words not mine.

therefore they had to be on the board to begin with.

READ the FAQ

Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving onto the board
when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
VoD allows a unit to use the Deep Strike rules. It does not allow a unit to Deep Strike.

Read the Necron Codex again, it says "Deep Strike" not some other wording that "uses the rules for Deep Strike" I would concede that the GWM does have that wording and so I would not push for that in the case of the OP's question.
But the Veil'Tek can.

it says the unit "immediately Deep Strike" back into the board. The VoD is no different from Termie armor in that it grants the ability to DS.

" ... can use it in its movement phase instead of moving normally. "
It says they're removed from the field and immediately DS back in.

Again READ the FAQ:

Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving onto the board
when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes

arrives from Reserve means they are in RESERVE.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nothing in there gives the Cryptek the Deep Strike SR which is what PR requires - because it requires the unit to be able to Deep Strike. The unit explicitly cannot Deep Strike, per the FAQ you feel it convenient to hand wave away.
And really - comparing VoD with Terminator armor? They aren't even worded remotely similarly.

They are the same in that they do not give the model the DS USR, they just grant the ability to arrive from RESERVE using DS.

arrives from Reserve means they are in RESERVE.

Wouldn't arrives from reserves mean it's no longer in reserve?

Otherwise things that arrive from reserve wouldn't actually be there.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nothing in there gives the Cryptek the Deep Strike SR which is what PR requires - because it requires the unit to be able to Deep Strike. The unit explicitly cannot Deep Strike, per the FAQ you feel it convenient to hand wave away.
And really - comparing VoD with Terminator armor? They aren't even worded remotely similarly.

They are the same in that they do not give the model the DS USR, they just grant the ability to arrive from RESERVE using DS.

But one requires you to do it "instead of moving normally" the other specifically allows them do do it from Reserve.

You have to veil instead of moving onto the board. Can you move onto the board during PR?

This going to be my last post on this:

Necron Codex wrote:
Phased Reinforcements: If Zandrekh is on the battlefield, any number of units in reserve that able to Deep Strike can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike, immediately after any enemy unit has arrived from reserve, normally during the enemy's Movement phase.

"any number of units in reserve" - Veil'Tek and his unit in resrve = yes
"that are able to Deep Strike" - Veil'Tek with VoD can Deep Strike? PEr VoD rules, see Codex Necron pg 84"..immediately Deep Strike..." = yes
"can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike" - Can VoD be used to enter play from reserves? = Per FAQ, yes...using Deep Strike? per wargear rules = yes
"during the enemy's Movement phase." - grants permission to use VoD in the enemy's movement phase to enter play from reserve.

40k-noob wrote:
This going to be my last post on this:

Necron Codex wrote:
Phased Reinforcements: If Zandrekh is on the battlefield, any number of units in reserve that able to Deep Strike can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike, immediately after any enemy unit has arrived from reserve, normally during the enemy's Movement phase.

"any number of units in reserve" - Veil'Tek and his unit in resrve = yes
"that are able to Deep Strike" - Veil'Tek with VoD can Deep Strike? PEr VoD rules, see Codex Necron pg 84"..immediately Deep Strike..." = yes
"can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike" - Can VoD be used to enter play from reserves? = Per FAQ, yes...using Deep Strike? per wargear rules = yes
"during the enemy's Movement phase." - grants permission to use VoD in the enemy's movement phase.

It's funny as I can pull a line that a Razorback is a rhino with a "big" gun essentially, it doesnt make it a rhino.
Catfishing is good this time of year, go try that.

Easter is for a while yet.

40k-noob wrote:
This going to be my last post on this:

Necron Codex wrote:
Phased Reinforcements: If Zandrekh is on the battlefield, any number of units in reserve that able to Deep Strike can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike, immediately after any enemy unit has arrived from reserve, normally during the enemy's Movement phase.

"any number of units in reserve" - Veil'Tek and his unit in resrve = yes
"that are able to Deep Strike" - Veil'Tek with VoD can Deep Strike? PEr VoD rules, see Codex Necron pg 84"..immediately Deep Strike..." = yes
"can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike" - Can VoD be used to enter play from reserves? = Per FAQ, yes...using Deep Strike? per wargear rules = yes
"during the enemy's Movement phase." - grants permission to use VoD in the enemy's movement phase.

That's fine, you can refuse to answer the points I bring up. It doesn't help your argument in any way, but you're free to do so.

I've bolded your incorrect point. VoD can be used instead of moving onto the board normally, per the FAQ. Does PR allow you to move not the board normally?

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
This going to be my last post on this:

Necron Codex wrote:
Phased Reinforcements: If Zandrekh is on the battlefield, any number of units in reserve that able to Deep Strike can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike, immediately after any enemy unit has arrived from reserve, normally during the enemy's Movement phase.

"any number of units in reserve" - Veil'Tek and his unit in resrve = yes
"that are able to Deep Strike" - Veil'Tek with VoD can Deep Strike? PEr VoD rules, see Codex Necron pg 84"..immediately Deep Strike..." = yes
"can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike" - Can VoD be used to enter play from reserves? = Per FAQ, yes...using Deep Strike? per wargear rules = yes
"during the enemy's Movement phase." - grants permission to use VoD in the enemy's movement phase.

That's fine, you can refuse to answer the points I bring up. It doesn't help your argument in any way, but you're free to do so.

I've bolded your incorrect point. VoD can be used instead of moving onto the board normally, per the FAQ. Does PR allow you to move not the board normally?

Ok, so I will make one more post to answer your point.

No, PR does not allow you move onto the board normally. But obviously you are missing the point of the FAQ question.

Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving onto the board
when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes

What is the purpose of the question? To ask permission to enter the board normally or to enter the board via Deep Strike?

If it is to enter play normally then what is the point of asking this question? That is a given part of entering from reserves, to enter normally.

This FAQ was asked to make it clear that the VoD can be used to enter play from reserves using Deep Strike as that is how the VoD wargear works.

That FAQ grants the player to permission to enter play from reserves via Deep Strike.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
This going to be my last post on this:

Necron Codex wrote:
Phased Reinforcements: If Zandrekh is on the battlefield, any number of units in reserve that able to Deep Strike can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike, immediately after any enemy unit has arrived from reserve, normally during the enemy's Movement phase.

"any number of units in reserve" - Veil'Tek and his unit in resrve = yes
"that are able to Deep Strike" - Veil'Tek with VoD can Deep Strike? PEr VoD rules, see Codex Necron pg 84"..immediately Deep Strike..." = yes
"can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike" - Can VoD be used to enter play from reserves? = Per FAQ, yes...using Deep Strike? per wargear rules = yes
"during the enemy's Movement phase." - grants permission to use VoD in the enemy's movement phase.

That's fine, you can refuse to answer the points I bring up. It doesn't help your argument in any way, but you're free to do so.

I've bolded your incorrect point. VoD can be used instead of moving onto the board normally, per the FAQ. Does PR allow you to move not the board normally?

Ok, so I will make one more post to answer your point.

No, PR does not allow you move onto the board normally. But obviously you are missing the point of the FAQ question.

Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving onto the board
when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes

What is the purpose of the question? To ask permission to enter the board normally or to enter the board via Deep Strike?

If it is to enter play normally then what is the point of asking this question? That is a given part of entering from reserves, to enter normally.

This FAQ was asked to make it clear that the VoD can be used to enter play from reserves using Deep Strike as that is how the VoD wargear works.

That FAQ grants the player to permission to enter play from reserves via Deep Strike.

Pre-FAQ you were not allowed to use VoD to enter play, due to the fact you had to first be removed from the table (and the fact without specific permission abilities/wargear do not work while in reserves).
Post-FAQ you are allowed to use VoD instead of moving normally on from Reserve. In order to use VoD you must be able to first move normally. Does PR allow a unit to move normally on?

40k-noob wrote:

That FAQ grants the player to permission to enter play from reserves via Deep Strike instead of moving onto the board.

Fixed that for you. When quoting rules it's useful to use the entire rule and not just the part that helps your argument.

foolishmortal wrote:
Please clarify, what 'X' must arrive via deep strike if they utilize 'Y' rules. I assume you mean 'units in reserve able to Deep Strike' and 'phased reinforcements', in which case, No I did not miss anything.

You seem to be saying that a unit must be declared as deep striking in deployment in order to be eligible for Phased Reinforcements. I do not believe that is the case.

In both Ethereal interception and Phased reinforcements the rules say They must be able to deep strike and they must arrive VIA deep strike.
In the veil/GWM rules they can only use them in their movement phase. So, you can't use them for PR or EI.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


Read the ghost walk mantle rules, that is more explicit on what veils do, seeing as it "is" a type of veil of darkness.

Or really, just read this entire thread as all of this has been hashed out.

No, the GWM is more specific to what the GWM does. I suggest you do some more reading, the VoD rules are clear, crystal even.

No, GWM *is* a veil of darkness. It's just a slightly better one. Regardless, the effects of both are the same, no matter how truncated the veil rules may be.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

That FAQ grants the player to permission to enter play from reserves via Deep Strike instead of moving onto the board.

Fixed that for you. When quoting rules it's useful to use the entire rule and not just the part that helps your argument.

Looks legit. Absolutely reading in context does help a ton

40k-noob wrote:


Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving onto the board
when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes

What is the purpose of the question? To ask permission to enter the board normally or to enter the board via Deep Strike?

If it is to enter play normally then what is the point of asking this question? That is a given part of entering from reserves, to enter normally.

This FAQ was asked to make it clear that the VoD can be used to enter play from reserves using Deep Strike as that is how the VoD wargear works.

That FAQ grants the player to permission to enter play from reserves via Deep Strike.

What the FAQ does not do is grant the model with VOD the status "able to Deep Strike". "Able to Deep Strike" is defined in the BGB, so we can't apply a 'real world' definition to it, no matter how much you'd like to try. There are two, and only two, requirements the have the ability to Deep Strike:

BGB pg. 36 wrote: In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike rule and the unit must be placed in reserve.

(emphasis mine)

Crypteks do not have the Deep Strike rule, therefor they do not meet the requirements of being 'able to deep strike". The VoD is a piece of wargear that allows the Cryptek and it's unit to use the Deep Strike rules to move, but never gives the actual rule to the equipped model. A Cryptek with the VoD can always use it instead of moving normally; The only reason that the VoD can be used from reserve is the fact that units in reserve 'move onto the board normally".

In conclusion, yes the VoD grants the ability to use the Deep Strike rules, but it in no way grants the ability to Deep Strike as defined in the BGB, which is what is required to utilize the Phased Reinforcement rule.