| Author |
Message |
 |
|
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
2012/10/25 08:26:41
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
|
I meant to imply that he actively wanted to use the Golden Throne as the world's largest iron lung. 
Current fluff dictates that he actually desired Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne (Whether it was in chains or freely is not certain at the moment, Magnus thinks the latter, some Daemon or Tzeentch or whatever thought the latter).
Whatever the case, Magnus accidentally fethed that plan when he blew up the Webway Gate.
|
|
|
 |
|
2012/10/25 08:29:45
Subject: Re:God-hood
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
the fact that things did not likely go as he planned is the strongest argument against his god hood, and calling him stupid or somesuch is hindsight/ armchair generaling, he did what he did when he did, if he could call all the shots and how things woukld happen, he would not be on the golden toilet.
Now in the intervening thousands of years he may have acheived a form of godhood...since acts of faith and such have real tangible results..it is the warp and strange things happen when enough people beleive or behave a certain way.
But meh...I like my greater good..its more abstact 
|
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 08:31:29
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
 Void__Dragon wrote:I meant to imply that he actively wanted to use the Golden Throne as the world's largest iron lung.
Current fluff dictates that he actually desired Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne (Whether it was in chains or freely is not certain at the moment, Magnus thinks the latter, some Daemon or Tzeentch or whatever thought the latter).
Whatever the case, Magnus accidentally fethed that plan when he blew up the Webway Gate.
No, Magnus was supposed to lead the exploration/conquest of the Webway, not to sit on the Golden Throne. The Golden Throne's psychic barriers would be useless once the Imperial Webway had linked to the main network, at which point the Throne Gate would be useful only as a reference point similar to the Astronomican: to prevent Humans in the Webway from getting lost.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 08:33:31
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
|
A Thousand Sons disagrees with you.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 08:38:58
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
Well the reason I use terms like incompetent if he didn't intend to eventually be worshiped is because, frankly, this guy is supposed to have played religious figures, saints, etc in the past-- as in, OUR past. He had 30k+ years of experience learning about and manipulating humanity.
He should KNOW by now how people react whenever you appear before them in a certain way. And yet he appeared in such a way as to inspire people to worship him despite this. If the fluff said he was born like fourty years before the great crusade or something, I'd understand his mistakes. But that's not what it says....
|
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/25 08:40:37
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 08:39:41
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Then again, I'm not one to listen to Tzeentch or to any of his messengers.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 08:49:54
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
|
Magnus learned the Emperor's plans when they psychically linked after Magnus accidentally the Webway.
 Melissia wrote:Well the reason I use terms like incompetent if he didn't intend to eventually be worshiped is because, frankly, this guy is supposed to have played religious figures, saints, etc in the past-- as in, OUR past. He had 30k+ years of experience learning about and manipulating humanity.
He should KNOW by now how people react whenever you appear before them in a certain way. And yet he appeared in such a way as to inspire people to worship him despite this. If the fluff said he was born like fourty years before the great crusade or something, I'd understand his mistakes. But that's not what it says....
I like to imagine that, despite his overpowering psychic presence that gave everyone mind boners when near him, he had little to no understanding of normal people. He wasn't a human by any stretch of the definition, being more akin to a colossal psychic presence in the Warp that happens to have a physical vessel. This is why he handled Angron in the most idiotically heavy-handed fashion (You can replace Angron with Lorgar or Magnus), or why he for some reason never thought to give the Primarchs a reason for why he left for Terra (The Emperor giving people commands to further his plans without bothering to tell his subordinates what those plans were is a recurring trait of his), and, yeah, why he for some reason thought that people should have no reason to worship him as a god... When he is a ten foot tall man in golden shining armour, who radiates a powerful light and sort of projects starships across space with the power of his mind.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 08:53:28
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Void__Dragon wrote:Magnus learned the Emperor's plans when they psychically linked after Magnus accidentally the Webway.
True...but Tzeentch had already clouded his mind by then. I doubt if his thoughts were 'straight'. They were already twisted/crooked by the hand of Tzeentch.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 08:54:47
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
|
The strength of the Emperor's thoughts and his mind is too great to be blocked by Tzeentch.
And nah, though played by Tzeentch like a fiddle, everything Magnus did was a conscious decision on his part.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 08:59:39
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Void__Dragon wrote:The strength of the Emperor's thoughts and his mind is too great to be blocked by Tzeentch.
And nah, though played by Tzeentch like a fiddle, everything Magnus did was a conscious decision on his part.
It wasn't the Emperor's mind that was clouded - it was Magnus. He saw something different from what the Emperor wanted him to see. Not much of a literal difference, but just enough. I bet he was even offered by the Emperor a chance at redemption/forgiveness if he surrendered and allowed himself to be taken to Terra. Instead, he saw what the Powers wanted him to see - Horus telling Russ to burn Prospero to the ground. And TBH, Russ did ask someone (can't remember who) in Prospero Burns to take a message to Magnus and the Thousand Sons. He probably wanted to hear Magnus' side of the story before deciding which orders to obey:
1) The Emperor: bring Magnus back to Terra.
2) Horus: kill Magnus, destroy the Thousand Sons, and burn Prospero to the ground.
Unfortunately, Magnus' mind was too clouded to respond, and thus Russ chose to obey Horus.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 09:03:39
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
|
Those are all pretty nice assumptions and speculation you have there.
Also, Leman Russ was speaking with their personal fellater (The guy who he pays to tell the Space Wolves how awesome they are), talking directly to Magnus, because he believed Magnus had his Thousand Sons implant a psychic link in said fellater's mind to Magnus himself.
Only he didn't. A Daemon was living in his brain, Magnus never had anything to do with his state. Leman Russ just assumed the Thousand Sons had committed a crime.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 09:13:38
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Void__Dragon wrote:
Only he didn't. A Daemon was living in his brain, Magnus never had anything to do with his state. Leman Russ just assumed the Thousand Sons had committed a crime.
Thanks for the correction. But thing is, Magnus was offered a chance for forgiveness/redemption but never received it because of Tzeentch's machinations.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 09:19:14
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
|
That's true.
Which was made possible by Leman Russ being a total tool and an idiot.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 09:21:54
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Void__Dragon wrote:That's true.
Which was made possible by Leman Russ being a total tool and an idiot.
Its more complicated than that, but I agree. If the Emperor gave an order and the Warmaster countermanded it, I'd still obey the Emperor.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 09:24:07
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
|
The whole leaping to a conclusion that Magnus was doing sorcery in some dude's mind to spy on his legion without bothering to so much as confront Magnus or even tell his dad about his suspicions helps as well.
That issue could have been solved by Magnus opening his mind to the Emperor and proving his innocence.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 09:28:36
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Void__Dragon wrote:The whole leaping to a conclusion that Magnus was doing sorcery in some dude's mind to spy on his legion without bothering to so much as confront Magnus or even tell his dad about his suspicions helps as well.
That issue could have been solved by Magnus opening his mind to the Emperor and proving his innocence.
I was thinking that instead of sending a sorcerous message, Magnus could just have taken his fastest ships and best legionaries to Terra and warned the Emperor in person, but that is a good idea. 
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 09:30:55
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
|
Magnus thought that Warp travel would have been unreliable.
And this is actually a fair point on Magnus's part, in recent times, the Warp has been restless, hard to read, or travel in, an Astropath message might never make it, and a trip to Terra (Prospero is a long ass way away lol) would take far too long in all likelihood.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 09:33:50
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Void__Dragon wrote:Magnus thought that Warp travel would have been unreliable.
And this is actually a fair point on Magnus's part, in recent times, the Warp has been restless, hard to read, or travel in, an Astropath message might never make it, and a trip to Terra (Prospero is a long ass way away lol) would take far too long in all likelihood.
Prior to Nikaea (when he was in his right mind and unclouded by doubt/paranoia) he would have taken the chance as a means of proving his loyalty.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 11:49:49
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
|
 Lynata wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:This, I believe, is why the Emperor cannot be reborn, because his essence is still tied to his mortal body. When this dies he will be released fully and ascend to godhood.
I would not call it godhood but rather a rebirth and return to his old status as he was during the Great Crusade ... but yes, your interpretation is supported by the fluff in the Inquisitor RPG, with certain influential powers in the Imperium actively trying to prevent this event.
I don't see how he would return to Great Crusade release Emperor, if his body dies, then he will have to start afresh if he doesn't become a god. Would he be able to reincarnate himself like the Shamans were able to, I'm not so sure. He would either become a God in the warp or like any other mortal, fade away.
Lynata wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Now this does contradict my own belief that the likes of Ares and Kali are Khorne by a different name.
Personally, I think my own position would be that today's Khorne has ursurped both Ares and Kali and is now revered as both, just like I have a feeling that Khairne is a tad too close to Khorne's domain to be a coincidence.
Or alternatively they are certain aspects of Khorne, like a family tree in a way. Khorne is the Granddaddy of them all and the rest are his children.
Oh yes, this is a quote that I like to use a lot to point this out 
When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way.
Here is a thought
One night the Goddess Lileath had a dream in which she saw Khaine the War God torn to pieces by a mortal descendant of Kurnous the god of the hunt and Isha the goddess of the harvest.
The necessity of food bought about the bloodshed between man, this bloodshed bringing about Khorne who is a God birthed by Mortals..
Lynata wrote:ENOZONE wrote:1, There is no evidence to suggest what happens to humans after they die. Theories and beliefs perhaps - but nothing more concrete than what we have in real life.
"If an Eldar's spirit is not captured by his waystone it is sucked into the nightmarish depths of the Warp. To a Human, such a fate means nothing, for virtually no Human mind is strong enough to retain a sense of consciousness after death - the psychic energy of the Human mind being paltry compared to that of an Eldar."
- 4E Codex: Eldar, p14 Spirit Stones
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4e
When followers of Chaos die, their souls do not fade and disappear like the spirits of others ...
Back on the subject of worship
A Chaos God can only grow in power through the actions and thoughts of mortals. Those that worship a Chaos God and behave in a way that feeds it are rewarded with strange gifts ...
So does worship count as an action or is an action regarded as slaying someone and then the worship is to get the respective Gods attention?
Lynata wrote:
ENOZONE wrote:Yet, to date, only one SoB has fallen to Chaos, and it was willingly done.
If you are referring to Miriael Sabathiel, she was tortured for months until she broke - that's not a "willing" fall...
Do we know if she was tortured or if she let Slaanesh whisper to her? I've not been able to find any source that tells us how she actually fell, just that she did.
Melissia wrote: Lynata wrote:The Emperor [...][ never wanted to be worshipped in the first place
THat's kidn of debatable.
Sure, the common belief was that he never wanted to be worshiped and was simply too stupid to realize that appearing as a god would make him be worshiped, but I think that he did have a plan to have humans worship him eventually-- he just didn't plan on the Horus Heresy.
I do find him not knowing about the Heresy pretty hard to believe, I mean the Emperor was supposed to have amazing foresight that only failed him up to the point before he boarded the Vengeful Spirit, how did he not have an idea of what was going to happen.
 Tadashi wrote: Melissia wrote: Lynata wrote:The Emperor [...][ never wanted to be worshipped in the first place
THat's kidn of debatable.
Sure, the common belief was that he never wanted to be worshiped and was simply too stupid to realize that appearing as a god would make him be worshiped, but I think that he did have a plan to have humans worship him eventually-- he just didn't plan on the Horus Heresy.
The Burning of Monarchia, the subsequent proscription and persecution of any form of worship of himself or any deity prove otherwise.
Take something away from someone and they will want it more
Tadashi wrote:
No, Magnus was supposed to lead the exploration/conquest of the Webway, not to sit on the Golden Throne. The Golden Throne's psychic barriers would be useless once the Imperial Webway had linked to the main network, at which point the Throne Gate would be useful only as a reference point similar to the Astronomican: to prevent Humans in the Webway from getting lost.
Really, source please? If anything background states that the Emperor had intended Magnus to sit on the throne, a la Collected Visions.
Tadashi wrote: Void__Dragon wrote:That's true.
Which was made possible by Leman Russ being a total tool and an idiot.
Its more complicated than that, but I agree. If the Emperor gave an order and the Warmaster countermanded it, I'd still obey the Emperor.
Russ did obey the Emperor, Horus was made commander of the Imperiums forces by the the Emperor. If Russ had decided to ignore what Horus had requested of him, he would have been disobeying an order from the Emperor.
|
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/25 12:44:44
No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 11:55:45
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
 Pilau Rice wrote: Russ [i]did[/i0 obey the Emperor, Horus was made commanded of the Imperiums forces by the the Emperor. If Russ had decided to ignore what Horus had requested of him, he would have been disobeying an order from the Emperor.
Again with this reasoning? The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, and Horus changed it. But so what? He may be Warmaster, but he has no right to change an order from the Emperor himself. By your reasoning, if Horus' word is the Emperor's word, then all the loyalists were traitors since they fought against the Warmaster. That's what Iterators and Remembrancers were for - to remind people that faith was not necessary to create a grand, star-spanning civilization. Too bad Malcador didn't survive the Heresy - he would have prevented the rise of the Imperial Cult.
|
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/10/25 11:58:19
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 12:40:01
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
|
Tadashi wrote: Pilau Rice wrote:
Russ did obey the Emperor, Horus was made commander of the Imperiums forces by the the Emperor. If Russ had decided to ignore what Horus had requested of him, he would have been disobeying an order from the Emperor.
Again with this reasoning? The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, and Horus changed it. But so what? He may be Warmaster, but he has no right to change an order from the Emperor himself. By your reasoning, if Horus' word is the Emperor's word, then all the loyalists were traitors since they fought against the Warmaster.
As the omniscient reader we know that Horus is a traitor and what has happened, but does Russ know, no he doesn't. Nor does anyone else at this time, Ok Magnus does , but no one believes him . It's only after the events on Istvaan that they know that Horus is a traitor and should no longer be obeyed.
Also does Russ know that Horus changed the order from the Emperor, or maybe Emperor did change the order, past it on to Horus and then Horus to him? Russ has no reason to not trust Horus at this time.
Hey, I think it's stupid of Russ to not even give it a second thought, he was warned twice before about Horus fall, but didn't stop to think for a second that it was true.
Tadashi wrote:
That's what Iterators and Remembrancers were for - to remind people that faith was not necessary to create a grand, star-spanning civilization.
Too bad Malcador didn't survive the Heresy - he would have prevented the rise of the Imperial Cult.
Wasn't one these to become a Saint though? Wasn't the Imperial Cult already in its early birth stages throughout the Imperium at this time? You can try and stop something by using rational thought, it doesn't mean that everyone is going to accept it.
|
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/25 12:45:14
No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 12:52:58
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Pilau Rice wrote: Tadashi wrote: Pilau Rice wrote:
Russ did obey the Emperor, Horus was made commander of the Imperiums forces by the the Emperor. If Russ had decided to ignore what Horus had requested of him, he would have been disobeying an order from the Emperor.
Again with this reasoning? The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, and Horus changed it. But so what? He may be Warmaster, but he has no right to change an order from the Emperor himself. By your reasoning, if Horus' word is the Emperor's word, then all the loyalists were traitors since they fought against the Warmaster.
As the omniscient reader we know that Horus is a traitor and what has happened, but does Russ know, no he doesn't. Nor does anyone else at this time, Ok Magnus does , but no one believes him . It's only after the events on Istvaan that they know that Horus is a traitor and should no longer be obeyed.
Also does Russ know that Horus changed the order from the Emperor, or maybe Emperor did change the order, past it on to Horus and then Horus to him? Russ has no reason to not trust Horus at this time.
Hey, I think it's stupid of Russ to not even give it a second thought, he was warned twice before about Horus fall, but didn't stop to think for a second that it was true.
Fair enough - but I would still follow the Emperor's orders over the Warmaster's.
Wasn't one these to become a Saint though? Wasn't the Imperial Cult already in its early birth stages throughout the Imperium at this time? You can try and stop something by using rational thought, it doesn't mean that everyone is going to accept it.
Amandera Kerrel - she was imprisoned on Luna along with the survivors of Istvaan III. But the latter were recruited by Malcador the Sigillite, who left her to rot (as she should have done) in the Sisters' fortress.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 13:18:39
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
|
Tadashi wrote:
Fair enough - but I would still follow the Emperor's orders over the Warmaster's.
The point is Russ wasn't to know that he was not following the Emperors Orders, as far as he was concerned, he was. We don't know the specific communication between Horus and Russ, but if Horus said 'The Emperor has advised to exterminate Magnus as the taint goes to deep', then the Emperor has advised it, doesn't matter if it is a lie or not. Russ has no reason not to believe that this is exactly what the Emperor said.
Tadashi wrote:
Amandera Kerrel - she was imprisoned on Luna along with the survivors of Istvaan III. But the latter were recruited by Malcador the Sigillite, who left her to rot (as she should have done) in the Sisters' fortress.
I was referring to Euphrati Keeler, we do not know their fate at the moment.
Dammit Tadashi, we're back to Magnus and the Space Wolves again ... couldn't you have commented on one of my thoughts about the thread topic and not these two
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 13:20:09
No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 13:23:04
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Pilau Rice wrote: I was referring to Euphrati Keeler, we do not know their fate at the moment. Dammit Tadashi, we're back to Magnus and the Space Wolves again ... couldn't you have commented on one of my thoughts about the thread topic and not these two
Whoops! Mixed up the two (Keeler and Kerrel)...anyway, the gist of it is that Emperor isn't a god. He never was. While he certainly pushes the definition of Human, the Emperor is just a Human psyker. The mightiest of them all.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 13:23:46
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/25 23:35:03
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
|
Tadashi wrote:Bjorn remembers...the Space Wolves would never kneel.
So that's one Chapter that has to pay the price, then.
Though I wouldn't be so sure that Bjorn remembers the Emperor so well, considering his unimportant role back then. It's really not like they were close friends or anything. 
Melissia wrote:That's kidn of debatable.
I guess so. The few information we have on his motifs are all from some novel, and we all know how reliable those are in terms of fluff consistency.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Now in the intervening thousands of years he may have acheived a form of godhood...since acts of faith and such have real tangible results..it is the warp and strange things happen when enough people beleive or behave a certain way.
Acts of Faith do not seem to be connected to the Warp of psychic powers in any way - but yeah, there's still a lot of weird things happening all around the galaxy. Saint Sebastian and Saint Joachim dispelling warp storms during the Age of Apostasy or the 13th Black Crusade, for example. Emperor's intervention?
Would not necessarily have to do much with worship or behavior, though. The Emperor is just a really, really great Psyker.
Pilau Rice wrote:I don't see how he would return to Great Crusade release Emperor, if his body dies, then he will have to start afresh if he doesn't become a god. Would he be able to reincarnate himself like the Shamans were able to, I'm not so sure. He would either become a God in the warp or like any other mortal, fade away.
Well, I think it's obvious that he is special. What that means in detail, however, is anyone's guess...
"The Golden Throne works", one said, his voice aged and cracked. "The Emperor's life can be sustained indefinitely."
"His soul lives on?", another inquired, his long, sharp nose protruding from under the lip of his hood. "It is not an empty husk?"
"It is not", the first confirmed. "The Emperor has ascended to the next plane, but the link 'twixt body and spirit remains strong."
"Then it can be brought back", suggested the third, a young woman whose flowing white hair spilled from her hood and down to her waist. "The Emperor need not suffer this hideous eternal life in death."
"We cannot rish such a thing!", the first voice hissed. "What if the spiritual link were severed? What if the person brought back was not the man we once knew? Changed? News of the Emperor's ... ascension is already widespread. He is being revered as a god already on a hundred worlds. In this time of rebuilding, we need a symbol. The Emperor has shown us the way."
(from GW's Inquisitor RPG)
Pilau Rice wrote:So does worship count as an action or is an action regarded as slaying someone and then the worship is to get the respective Gods attention?
Personally, I think the act of worship as well as the thoughts connected to it are just a "vessel" to carry the emotion that is the true source of power. And the God's attention is called forth by creating a large enough source?
Pilau Rice wrote:Do we know if she was tortured or if she let Slaanesh whisper to her? I've not been able to find any source that tells us how she actually fell, just that she did.
Hmm. I've checked her story again, and indeed it does not tell us details. That's what I get for just believing something fans enter into a wiki, I suppose - and here I thought I was cured of that.
Where are you, Miriael? Karamanz wondered. That wasn’t the real question. The real question was what did they do to you?
What did the vile powers of Chaos manage to do to you when they held you in their clutches? Verdicon. That’s where it happened. Miriael Sabathiel, sister superior, had been reported as missing in action during the vicious fighting against the unholy Emperor’s Children.
And then this. Back from the dead. Back, but changed. Changed in ways no other sister of battle had ever been changed.
Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption. What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion.
Now, of course one could say the story kinda implies it, given that we're talking about the Emperor's Children and a Sister's purity here, but ... yeah, interpretations.
I'm sorry, I thought it was more solid. :I
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/26 01:21:21
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Lynata wrote:Tadashi wrote:Bjorn remembers...the Space Wolves would never kneel.
So that's one Chapter that has to pay the price, then.
Though I wouldn't be so sure that Bjorn remembers the Emperor so well, considering his unimportant role back then. It's really not like they were close friends or anything.
The Unforgiven would stand with the Wolves - vitriolic best buddies, remember? And Bjorn remembers. IIRC, there was one novel where an Inquisitor introduced himself as a representative of the 'God-Emperor', only for Bjorn to start laughing and comment that calling the Emperor a god was how 'this whole mess' started.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/26 01:38:27
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
|
You and your "civil war" ideas.
I'm still not quite understanding why there should be any reluctance. How big, do you think, is the chance that Bjorn and a (re)born Emperor would ever actually see each other? IF he's lucky (considering he only gets woken up once every century or so) he gets to hear stories about Emps coming back, and how the Imperium rejoices. Then what?
In the end, the Space Wolves are quite simply not the Imperial authority on approving or disapproving an Emperor's claim to the throne. That's something the High Lords and the Inquisition will do. The SW should be lucky they're (probably) kept in the loop when they receive the astropathic communication some day.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/26 02:04:53
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Lynata wrote: That's something the High Lords and the Inquisition will do. The SW should be lucky they're (probably) kept in the loop when they receive the astropathic communication some day.
All contact is subsequently lost with the Fenris and Caliban Sectors, and later on, the Realm of Ultramar. Unrest steadily spreads and increases across other Astartes realms and Mechanicum Forge Worlds and their other colonies.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/10/26 03:21:21
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
|
Void__Dragon wrote:That's true.
Which was made possible by Leman Russ being a total tool and an idiot.
Here are facts once and for all :
1. clumsy red zit (pushed by Tzeench) destroyed webway portal and fethed imperuim for life (Russ was with the Emp when that happened based on old codex astartes - @pilau correct me if im wrong)
2. clumsy red zit had a choice to die or to sell his arse - he sold it (Russ and every loyal primarch would rather die)
3. Russ sobs "Oooooo Father why did you give me that order" in Prospero burns so do the math,Horus just pushed him further
4. Magnus ADMITED that he put spies into SW (just it wasn't Hawser, EPIC fail for the Wolves ) and also was a pervert because he did study Russ from his tower
5. Magnus hates Imperium and he is utterly stupid or blind by Horus treachery OR simply just a traitor
4th fellowship who renounced Magnus speaks about his "Righteousness" ...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tadashi wrote: Pilau Rice wrote:
I was referring to Euphrati Keeler, we do not know their fate at the moment.
Dammit Tadashi, we're back to Magnus and the Space Wolves again ... couldn't you have commented on one of my thoughts about the thread topic and not these two
Whoops! Mixed up the two (Keeler and Kerrel)...anyway, the gist of it is that Emperor isn't a god. He never was. While he certainly pushes the definition of Human, the Emperor is just a Human psyker. The mightiest of them all.
Agree but damn me if there isn't some twisted warp creature from which are saints drawing power - btw I like your idea abot two emperors
|
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/26 04:13:20
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
|
|
|
|
|
2012/10/26 05:42:08
Subject: God-hood
|
|
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
|
 DarthMarko wrote:1. clumsy red zit (pushed by Tzeench) destroyed webway portal and fethed imperuim for life (Russ was with the Emp when that happened based on old codex astartes - @pilau correct me if im wrong)
In the old Index Astartes articles and IIRC in Collected Visions Russ was there, HH doesn't tell us either way. Tome of Fate, a Black Crusade supplement (Or it might have been First Founding, a Deathwatch supplement) also says Russ was there.
Magnus destroyed the Webway portal that he didn't know existed. One would think that the Emperor would tell the guy who was supposed to sit on it.
2. clumsy red zit had a choice to die or to sell his arse - he sold it (Russ and every loyal primarch would rather die)
Magnus chose to save his Legion, not himself. He had no intention of leaving Prospero alive. Tzeentch had other plans.
3. Russ sobs "Oooooo Father why did you give me that order" in Prospero burns so do the math,Horus just pushed him further
No he doesn't, never does he explicitly state that the Emperor gave him the order, and Horus outright confirms that it was he who gave the order in Galaxy in Flames, and indirectly the Daemon in Prospero Burns says the same (While acting as Horus).
4. Magnus ADMITED that he put spies into SW (just it wasn't Hawser, EPIC fail for the Wolves ) and also was a pervert because he did study Russ from his tower
Prove that Magnus put spies into the SW.
5. Magnus hates Imperium and he is utterly stupid or blind by Horus treachery OR simply just a traitor
Magnus hates the Imperium now, he didn't then. And was the only one not blind to Horus's treachery, hence trying to save Horus himself and then warning the Emperor of Horus's treachery.
You should probably read the fluff first, before you comment on it. Also, you're sad and pathetic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
