Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Peregrine wrote:


Sure, but only if we make them true flyers. They can be AV 10-11 with 2 HP, but subtract 72" from all weapon ranges to represent the fact that they're bombing you from several thousand feet above the battlefield, and restore the old "go anywhere they want" rule to represent the fact that a flyer can move off the battlefield and come back in pretty much any position it wants. Oh yeah, and forget about hitting on 6's, skyfire lets you hit on 6s, and if you don't have skyfire you hit on 6s but have to re-roll successful hits. Twice. In fact, you might as well remove flyer models entirely and just have them be off-table sources of army-destroying bombs.

The simple fact is that GW took away all the "realistic" defenses of a flyer, so the only solution was to give them "unrealistic" AV/HP to compensate.

If you want to play *real* bombers in the game, it would be a barrage orbital bombardment that fires off once during the battle. Real bombers don't go zigging four times in two minutes over the same small skirmish, 40 feet in the air. That's not how bombers work. 40K flyers are clearly not designed to represent that kind of thing.

I'm not sure why they look like planes at all, they seem to be a lot closer to attack helicopters in both the role they play and the way they act. A fighter or bomber played realistically would make an appearance for one round, hit with some serious weaponry, and then be gone for the rest of the game.

 Hollowman wrote:

I'm not sure why they look like planes at all, they seem to be a lot closer to attack helicopters in both the role they play and the way they act. A fighter or bomber played realistically would make an appearance for one round, hit with some serious weaponry, and then be gone for the rest of the game.

The Stormtalon is a bit of a move in that direction, it clearly looks like a close air support gunship rather than a fighter.

The reason we have flier models now is the same reason we have long-range artillery: it's obviously represented better as an off-board calldown, but GW wanted to sell models.

 Hollowman wrote:
If you want to play *real* bombers in the game, it would be a barrage orbital bombardment that fires off once during the battle. Real bombers don't go zigging four times in two minutes over the same small skirmish, 40 feet in the air. That's not how bombers work. 40K flyers are clearly not designed to represent that kind of thing.

I'm not sure why they look like planes at all, they seem to be a lot closer to attack helicopters in both the role they play and the way they act. A fighter or bomber played realistically would make an appearance for one round, hit with some serious weaponry, and then be gone for the rest of the game.

Err, that's kind of my point. Flyers in 40k are not a realistic representation of what "real" aircraft would do, so it's ridiculous to complain that having the same AV/HP as a tank is "unrealistic".

 Peregrine wrote:

Err, that's kind of my point. Flyers in 40k are not a realistic representation of what "real" aircraft would do, so it's ridiculous to complain that having the same AV/HP as a tank is "unrealistic".

I agree with that - but I also don't agree that flyers are underpowered, as you implied. I don't like the flyer rules, and I don't really think they work for game balance or realism. That said, I think lower AV and hull points for most flyers would be a step in the right direction on both fronts.

 Hollowman wrote:
I agree with that - but I also don't agree that flyers are underpowered, as you implied.

I implied no such thing. As a concept they're just fine, and the only problems are with the individual unit rules where some flyers just have terrible rules independent of their unit type.

What I did say was that realism-wise they're too weak in firepower. A "real" load of 500lb bombs (like a Thunderbolt carries as secondary weapons) would be an army-destroying event, but instead they're only STR 6 AP 4 small blasts, or worse than a Griffon's light mortar. However, if you look at the model you find that the bombs are actually larger than the STR 10 AP 2 large blast shells the Medusa fires. Likewise for hellstrike missiles, etc. However, for obvious reasons this is not represented accurately in a tabletop skirmish game.

That said, I think lower AV and hull points for most flyers would be a step in the right direction on both fronts.

You mean a step in the direction of killing flyers entirely. With lower AV and less HP they'd be even more vulnerable to dying before ever getting a shot any time interceptor guns are on the table, and way too easy to kill in general.

...Most Flyers are already AV10/SP2, changing that would make them even easier to wreck...

I've found that the biggest issue is that people don't know how to deal with flyers or play flyers in 6e since it's relatively new and we're still getting used to it; I run an airborne Guard detachment attached to my Grey Knights army, and I've found that if my enemy fields an emplaced anti-aircraft gun all I have to do is run one Interceptor squad with a Daemonhammer or two and some psycannons over next to it and shred it early (if they can't reach it that generally means it's too far back to hit my flyers when they reach the table), before my Valkyries take the field. If your enemy is having too much trouble with your quad-gun shooting down their flyers, feel free to point out to them that the gun is quite destroyable (T7/W2/Sv3+) and they've always got a turn or two to whack it with whatever starts on the table before the flyers come on.

Most flyers in codexes are 3HP av11+; doom and night scythes, stormtalon and raven, vendetta / valkyrie and the new heldrake. Only orks and one DE fighter get the joy of AV10.

Now when you include IA you get more 2HP creatures

How are AA guns with 48" (72 with the icarus) range out of range of your flyers that have to move min 18" onto the table? Sure if you want to come in at such an acute angle you dont shoot first turn, do so....

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Most Flyers are already AV10/SP2, changing that would make them even easier to wreck...

Actually, GW hasn't published a single flier with AV10 and 2 SP.

As Nos said, currently, most fliers in the game are AV11/12 and 3 SP. If we count variations only once, there are 3 flyers with AV12 (SR, Heldrake, Valkyrie/Vendetta), 3 with AV11 (NS/DS, Stormtalon, Voidraven) and 2 with AV10 (Razorwing, Dakkajet/Blitza-bommer/Burna-bommer). Of these, only Stormtalon has 2 SP, all others have 3 SP.

 Ailaros wrote:
The way that they executed makes just about as much sense as the game designers saying "hey, see that leman russ? It's cool, but we should make it so that it's invincible against shooting attacks, and can only be killed in assault... if you roll a 6 to hit. And let's not make it any more expensive".

Don't forget the other things too.

Lets make it have to start in reserve, and only be able to effect the game for 3-5 turns.

By default, forcing the flyers to start in reserve limits their point-effectivness vs a unit starting on the board.

I really wouldn't mind flyers if everyone was given reasonable ways to tackle them, which GW dropped the ball on big time.

AnomanderRake, it's easy for you to say that T7 W2 3+ isn't hard to shoot apart as GK. Not everyone has access to powerful guns. My already overpriced Flyrant will get torn to pieces by quad-guns and not even the Tyrannofex has ap3. Our strongest AA capability is s6 and we can't use quad-guns.

Flyer implementation was very sloppy and lopsided. Some armies can swarm flyers, some don't really have any. Some armies have great AA, some have practically none. The ridiculous part is that the aies with the good flyers, by the same token have the good AA. So some armies got the rock and the paper while others just got a big finger from GW. Very frustrating when you aren't one of GW's pet-armies.

 labmouse42 wrote:
By default, forcing the flyers to start in reserve limits their point-effectivness vs a unit starting on the board.

Really? I've found it to be the other way around. Reserves means you're not taking shots at he start of the game, and once the flier becomes available the player has had a good while of looking at the field and can choose the right targets for it. Barring a lucky Interceptor shot there's no excuse for a Doomscythe that doesn't manage to make it's points back on the turn it enters the game.

I just don't get the flyer hysteria. Yes, flyers will destroy your 5th edition lists, but we're not playing 5th any more. Lots of firepower in exchange for 3-4 turns worth of firepower and limited/predictable movement. Good 6th ed lists can deal with flyers by either fielding their own or just ignoring them. As scary as a Night Scythe or Vendetta looks to your MSU mech army, the T7-9 Tyranid MCs, swarms of Orks and multi-wound Eternal Warriors really don't care.

6th is all about scoring units, either killing their or protecting yours. Somebody investing heavily in flyers will be light on scoring, and a strong ground presence beats a flaky air force any day.

Indeed - out manouvering air lists, by essentially walking under their arc of sight - you know where it will be after its next movement after all, unless it wants to hover - massively limits their effectiveness. It just means thinking a couple turns ahead

 Chumbalaya wrote:

6th is all about scoring units, either killing their or protecting yours. Somebody investing heavily in flyers will be light on scoring, and a strong ground presence beats a flaky air force any day.

Someone on The Tyranid Hive just posted about a Tourney they attended where an all-out Necron flyer spam took first place easily simply because no one could shoot that many down and the Necrons had enough firepower to blow everything down. Near end of game they unload their 5 man units to score and win because not much is left standing.

MCs get murdered by Vendettas that cost less than half their price btw, don't see how even an IA'd MC wouldn't be afraid of mass TL Lascannons on super-cheap flyers . . .

People who bring "One Trick Pony" lists deserve a "One Trick Pony" defense. I don't get the whole concept of list tailoring being bad. From a realistic(LOL) standpoint, it is Warhammer "40.000". I would think that every Space Marine Chapter has a knowledge base of every IG General in the universe and would generaly know what that guy has to fight them with. I would imagine every planetary invasion is preceeded by scouts and spearhead attacks.

It is the player A's fault if he brings a overpowered list that has a GLARING weakness. It is player B's fault if he does not exploit that weakness. List tailoring is a good thing for it prevents the POWERGAMER List. I think that all battles should give each side a chance to tailor their list to the other guy's list.

Pre-game

Player A shows his list to Player B

Player B shows his list to Player A

Player A and B can then change up to 25% of their list to tailor to the other guy, not counting squad loadouts as part of the 25%.

Would make for much more competitive games.

x13rads wrote:


Pre-game

Player A shows his list to Player B

Player B shows his list to Player A

Player A and B can then change up to 25% of their list to tailor to the other guy, not counting squad loadouts as part of the 25%.

Would make for much more competitive games.

There's nothing to stop you from doing that. It just seems that it's unnecessary. As many people have already pointed out, people who can bring flier defence, do. People who can't...can't. Giving me 25% of my points to change to your lack of anti-flier means I'm just going to bring another flier, since I know you can't spend those 25% on enough AA.

On the idea it makes for competitive games, I disagree. It makes for rock paper scissors.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Most flyers in codexes are 3HP av11+; doom and night scythes, stormtalon and raven, vendetta / valkyrie and the new heldrake. Only orks and one DE fighter get the joy of AV10.

Now when you include IA you get more 2HP creatures

How are AA guns with 48" (72 with the icarus) range out of range of your flyers that have to move min 18" onto the table? Sure if you want to come in at such an acute angle you dont shoot first turn, do so....

I stand corrected on the flyers point; the Ork Attack Fighta, the Lightning interceptor, the Nightwing interceptor, the Remora drone, the Barracuda fighter, the Raven interceptor, and the Hell Blade fighter are all AV10/SP2, but those aren't the aircraft you're likely to see on the table, so my point isn't as valid as I thought it was.

I was simply observing that any 48" range AA gun that's close enough to the table edge to shoot at my Valkyries as they come on is also close enough for my Interceptors to hit with psycannons or daemonhammers on turn one or two (30" teleport shunt plus 24" psycannon fire on turn one, 12" move plus 24" psycannon fire plus average 7" charge range on turn two).

 60mm wrote:
Someone on The Tyranid Hive just posted about a Tourney they attended where an all-out Necron flyer spam took first place easily simply because no one could shoot that many down and the Necrons had enough firepower to blow everything down. Near end of game they unload their 5 man units to score and win because not much is left standing.

MCs get murdered by Vendettas that cost less than half their price btw, don't see how even an IA'd MC wouldn't be afraid of mass TL Lascannons on super-cheap flyers . . .

Got a link? I'd love to see what sort of tourney this was before the sky starts falling. Scythes can tear up light armor and small units, but they are seriously limited by their movement rules and larger units tend to shrug off anything less than an entire air force's worth of Tesla.

Best an army can manage is 3 Vendettas, which is a significant investment. If those Vendettas all show up on turn 2, if the Tyranid player isn't smart enough to have cover or move to within the Vendettas' minimum range, if all their shots hit, if all their hits wound (S9 vs T8/9 isn't a guarantee) and if all their cover and FNP saves fail, then MCs get destroyed And, of course, gaunts and gargoyles really don't care about 9 lascannon shots.

So yes, if your army is centered on one or two MCs or you bring a bunch of Rhinos and 5-man squads, flyers will kill you. The problem isn't the flyers, it's you using an outdated army in this edition.

TheCaptain wrote: it counts as list tailoring. Which is uncool.

Or not.

Vendettas don't have a minimum range.

 somecallmeJack wrote:

TheCaptain wrote: it counts as list tailoring. Which is uncool.

Or not.

Great article about list tailoring. I've always been of that opinion, but Ive never managed to articulate it so clearly.

 somecallmeJack wrote:

TheCaptain wrote: it counts as list tailoring. Which is uncool.

Or not.

Yeah, see, I addressed this already. Just because someone decides to redefine something to fit their personal opinion, doesn't mean it is right when abiding by the common definition of the matter.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Vendettas don't have a minimum range.

They actually have some serious limitations on movement and shooting, as do all flyers. They must start in reserve, they must fly off the owning player's board edge, they must move at least 18", they can only turn 90 degrees and their weapons only have a 45 degree firing arc. Sure, you can hover after you arrive, but then you just become another AV12 skimmer that nobody should have a problem knocking out.

Oh, I'm not denying that Flyers are limited on their firing arcs and targetting, but there's no 'minimum range' limitation.

Sorry, I've just had people fiercely trying to argue that if you're within a certain distance of a flyer, it can't shoot you because of the 45 degree vertical firing arc rule and refusing to believe otherwise until I get one of my planes out and physically demonstrate that aircraft can pitch up and down (even on the models - if you don't glue the flight stands in, it's easy enough to angle them forward or back ) that it really bugs me when people insist on said mythical "minimum range".

The other thing is that yes - Vendettas in particular can Hover. Hovering may surrender all of your defensive bonusses, but if you absolutely 100% have to kill that land raider that's parked in front of you and you've got no choice but to overshoot it unless you Hover - Hovering is a good choice.

I think he was referring to minimum movement rather minimum shooting range. The use of "range" was a little confusing in that context and I understand where you're coming from. since I've had someone try to claim the 45 degree arc of fire is up/down as well as left/right which just isn't true.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I just don't get the flyer hysteria. Yes, flyers will destroy your 5th edition lists, but we're not playing 5th any more. Lots of firepower in exchange for 3-4 turns worth of firepower and limited/predictable movement. Good 6th ed lists can deal with flyers by either fielding their own or just ignoring them. As scary as a Night Scythe or Vendetta looks to your MSU mech army, the T7-9 Tyranid MCs, swarms of Orks and multi-wound Eternal Warriors really don't care.

6th is all about scoring units, either killing their or protecting yours. Somebody investing heavily in flyers will be light on scoring, and a strong ground presence beats a flaky air force any day.

You can't ignore a flyer list. One or two flyers, you can ignore. A good flyer list will decimate you if you lack the weaponry to bring them down, and many lists cannot bring more than a single quad gun to reliably bring down flyers. That dies first, and then troops start dying. Sure, some armies have the bodies or the firepower to ignore or kill flyers, but some armies do not. No army can prepare itself to face serious flyer lists without damaging it's ability to take on most other lists.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Oh, I'm not denying that Flyers are limited on their firing arcs and targetting, but there's no 'minimum range' limitation.

Sorry, I've just had people fiercely trying to argue that if you're within a certain distance of a flyer, it can't shoot you because of the 45 degree vertical firing arc rule and refusing to believe otherwise until I get one of my planes out and physically demonstrate that aircraft can pitch up and down (even on the models - if you don't glue the flight stands in, it's easy enough to angle them forward or back ) that it really bugs me when people insist on said mythical "minimum range".

The other thing is that yes - Vendettas in particular can Hover. Hovering may surrender all of your defensive bonusses, but if you absolutely 100% have to kill that land raider that's parked in front of you and you've got no choice but to overshoot it unless you Hover - Hovering is a good choice.

Ah, so youre changing the model during the game? What gives you permission to do that?

The 45 degree arc is entirely legitimate, and your attempts at cheating by changing your models position when you have no permission to do so in order to circumvent this is not exactly a great game plan.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Ah, so youre changing the model during the game? What gives you permission to do that?

The 45 degree arc is entirely legitimate, and your attempts at cheating by changing your models position when you have no permission to do so in order to circumvent this is not exactly a great game plan.

Uh.. what?

The rules say that if a weapon on a model can be moved to point at something, that puts it inside its firing arc.

Therefore, trying to claim that I'm cheating by moving the bits of my model is... somewhat ridiculous, don't you think?

I'm not "changing the model's position". The base stays exactly where it is. What is it with people trying to call me a filthy cheater today just because they want their stupid fanon nerfs to be law?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Uh.. what?

The rules say that if a weapon on a model can be moved to point at something, that puts it inside its firing arc.

Therefore, trying to claim that I'm cheating by moving the bits of my model is... somewhat ridiculous, don't you think?

I'm not "changing the model's position". The base stays exactly where it is. What is it with people trying to call me a filthy cheater today just because they want their stupid fanon nerfs to be law?

Chill.

By tilting the model, you're changing the model's position, effectively moding its 45 degree firing arc. Simple as that. Under your logic, if I never move the base, and turn my valk around on it, I could fire at stuff behind it. Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

Lesson to be learned here: since the rules never specify where the Vendetta's lascannons are or how they're mounted, put them on turret mounts that can shoot straight down. Problem solved.