Mannahnin wrote:
It's not a lie.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
It's not a lie.

Then I daresay his...choice of words is hardly a good representation of the tournament community, as is his overall attitude when faced with opposing opinions. As a 6+ time winner, you become an inadvertent role model to many tournament gamers, and as such, some shame should be felt that this discussion was not carried with more dignity.

-Captain

Makumba wrote:
how do you table cron air , when all they have on the table is a bastion you cant shot or assault , which blocks LoS to the stormlord siting behind the bastion ? not trolling I actualy have problems with cron air , even they drop after my valks come in .

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Not every army is going to have access to as many barrage weapons as guard, certainly not ones as strong, and even with that you're talking about a single T5 W3 2+ 3++ model on a "2 base. you're just not going to kill him in one turn unless you're throwing +6 large blast plates at him (and in the case of artillery batteries or the manticore would require multiple Hit rolls)

Spetulhu wrote:

 htj wrote:
I've not noticed anything saying that the 45 degree arc is in effect vertically as well as horizontally, but I don't claim to be 100% on the rules.

It's on page 72 of the BRB - vehicle weapons and LOS. "In the rare cases where it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 degrees, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that!"

 TheCaptain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, I see one troll and one only

Using allies is a realistic answer, and valid. Using FW is a realistic and valid answer.

This. I like this. A lot.

 Chumbalaya wrote:

Every army has the means to handle flyers, if not outright destroy them.

 60mm wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:

Every army has the means to handle flyers, if not outright destroy them.

Tyranids

Darkwynn wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:
Here is my problem with flyer spam.

They are more resilient than people think they are and should be for point cost.
Majority of armies don't have the tools to bring them down
Not fun to play against the army when you can't damage it.

You have a 16% chance to hit a flyer and if your weapon is strength 6 you only have a 2.8% chance to Pen and 2.8% chance to glance for a total of 5.6% of doing something to the flyer. Now they have a 33% chance of evading that item before you roll to pen so you have 1.8% chance of destroying that flyer with one single shot.

If you look at say an auto cannon single shot it’s going to have a 2.*% chance to glance and a 5.6% to Pen. Which is better but to destroy a flyer it’s going to come down to a low number much like above. Now you start looking at massing those numbers of shots, you will notice that it gets ridiculously high as 24 shots say from Scatter laser War walkers will only have a 10% chance of destroying it before saves. Which means you’re going to end up glancing flyers to death before you can bring it down with a destroy result.

Which comes to the point you say, why not grab units that have sky fire? Well sky fire is too limited to the older codexes as Elder have to grab a fortification which doesn't result in the tools you need. You don't have them available to you. On top of that if you do have those tools they are so limited that the spam army might lose one Flyer but the 7 or 9 other flyers will be able to concentration their firepower on the one or multiple units and kill it.

Then goes back to the point of you are playing an army that you don't have access to the tools to deal with it, if you did bring some items you have a chance of dealing with it. Which means I am sitting here for 2 hours at the mercy of my opponent and I have nothing I can do about it expect hope I somehow break the bell curve in math (isn't going to happen) because when I shoot at it I don't do anything.

You can play and cover the areas but there is still a lot of fire power coming out from those nightscyhtes 54 Telsa shots is still a lot to deal with in a 2000 point game as it on average kills 13 marines a turn if they can bear all their arms on units. When Necrons can drop models out on turn 5 they have a chance of winning on objectives. If you’re playing Kill points you’re not going to be able to win as they will have two or three kill points and you might have one as the sheer number of firepower to bring down one flyer will have to be your whole army.


Also armies having one flyer isn't an answer to that type of list as even if its AV 12, they have too many high strengeth shots to bring it down.

First point: The only flyer I agree is underpriced is the Vendetta. As far as the other two spammable flyers go ('spammable' meaning you can get more than three in one FOC), Valkyries are expensive and cannot deal with vehicles, Night Scythes look fancy but they're running around with a S7/AP-/Assault 4 gun, meaning that they can't actually do a lot of damage. Most other flyers are limited to 3 in a list, mitigating the amount of damage they can do. As far as their ability to take damage, let's compare an Ork Flakkatrukk (75pts) to a Night Scythe (100pts): 30% chance to down it outright in one turn of shooting (33% chance to hit and 50% chance to get a glancing hit, 16.5% chance to glance off every shot, subtract that from 1 to get an 83.5% chance for the flyer to not be glanced every shot, square that to get the chance of the Flakkatrukk missing twice out of four shots for 69.7%, meaning there's a 30.3% chance of the Flakkatrukk downing the Night Scythe in one turn of shooting from hull points alone, ignoring the chance of downing it off the damage tables off every shot). Flyers are much more resilient than normal vehicles providing you attack them with single-shot high-Strength weapons that you'd attack normal vehicles with, you're supposed to go after them with mid-Strength high-rate-of-fire weapons. What happens when I pit my twin-Scatter-Laser War Walker (a mere sixty points) against that same Night Scythe (100pts): 30% chance for the one War Walker to down the flyer (17% chance to hit and 33% chance to glance, making it a 5.6% chance for each shot to glance, now subtract that from 1 and take the 6th power of the resulting number to represent the chance of missing on six of eight shots to get 70.7% chance of it surviving, meaning it's got a 30% chance to go down). The lesson: You kill flyers by throwing a large quantity of fire at them, so find something in your list that gives you a large quantity of long-range mid-Strength shots. They're not necessarily absurdly durable for their cost.

Second point: This ignores Imperial Armor Aeronautica; Saber batteries, the Whirlwind Hyperios, the Flakkatrukk, and the Firestorm tank are all very easy to convert from plain old plastic bits lying around, as a matter of fact, meaning that the only armies left out in the cold on the anti-aircraft front are the Tau (who have access to allied detachments and are likely to access anti-aircraft upgrades in their new Codex anyway) and the Tyranids (who I agree are screwed). Everyone except the 'Nids has easy access to at least one nasty anti-flyer weapon.

Third point: You can't damage it because you didn't bring any anti-air weapons. That's your fault, not theirs. Am I allowed to whine about how unfair Land Raiders are because I left behind my Bright Lances in my Eldar army? No. I suck it up and build a better list next time.

I'm also pretty curious as to why you're factoring in Evade saves for everything any flyer does ever. Evade is a conscious choice the flyer must make to gain a Jink save at the expense of only being able to fire Snap Shots next turn, not something they automatically get. And your foe with the Necrons is doing something funny; 54 Tesla Destructor shots from those Night Scythes has to come off 13.5 Night Scythes, which is technically impossible because you can't get half a Night Scythe, and even if it's only 13 that's still at absolute minimum a 2,355pt list, who are killing a little under thirteen Space Marines per turn assuming the absolute best circumstances for them (read: everyone's lined up out in the open doing nothing) and the army has no heavy tanks. So either your math is off or the other guy is cheating, and you're griping about flyers being broken because you're facing off against a man who's cheating and using a list at least 25% larger than he's allowed.

okay, so let me get this straight that your first point to counter my argument is you should go look in the Forge world book for the Flak truck? Which is silly because majority of tournaments don't allow forge world yet so keep it into the realm of possibility.

Second, don't correct my math when you don't understand your own math. I used and even pointed out that high strengthen weapons are the best chance of hitting flyers. your fitting the average and not doing it correctly. All your stating that you have a chance of glancing the flyer. That is it.

Break down of the math follows as is in attachments.

Even with your 24 warwalker example twin linked you only have a 18.5% chance to destroy it if he doesn't evade. He he does evade you have a 12.7% chance of destroying him.

so your 160 unit of three war walkers can barely touch the flyer, now look at the 110 Night scythe which your forgetting the TELSA Rule that on a 6 it includes two extra hits which is where you get the 54 hits from 9 nightscythes. The Telsa has a 27% chance of doing a Hull point which is more of a threat then anything else because the war walker has two hull points which means on average it can kill one war walker when it fires at it.

You can't use Forgeworld as your only example to bring the tools because that isn't a commonly open option.

Third point... I HAVE NO CONSTRUCTIVE RESPONSE -Mannahnin, that is all I got because your other two points don't hold water and you have no idea what your talking about.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I acknowledge I'm probably forgetting the Tesla rule; I'm not particularly familiar with the Necron book. Nine Night Scythes will have 36 shots normally, and roughly 8 additional hits from the Tesla rule after factoring in twin-linked, which looks more like 44 to me than 54; calculating assuming every single shot gets a 6 to hit seems to be bad math to me.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

I acknowledge I'm probably forgetting the Tesla rule; I'm not particularly familiar with the Necron book. Nine Night Scythes will have 36 shots normally, and roughly 8 additional hits from the Tesla rule after factoring in twin-linked, which looks more like 44 to me than 54; calculating assuming every single shot gets a 6 to hit seems to be bad math to me.

That's a terrible idea. Why should a dedicated ground attack aircraft like a Vulture be limited to hitting ground targets on 6s? And why should hitting air targets with guns (incredibly difficult IRL) be harder than strafing ground targets (easy IRL)?

If anything ground attack aircraft need to be more deadly to represent the fact that a load of 500lb bombs is going to obliterate your entire army, not just do less damage than a barrage of mortar shots. Likewise my Vulture with hunter-killer missiles should do what a real anti-tank gunship does, and destroy 5-6 heavy tanks with its load of six missiles, not fire all six into a Rhino and hope to get lucky and strip a hull point, all in a pop-up attack from behind cover that leaves no time to shoot down the Vulture before it makes its kills and drops back behind cover.

jwr wrote:
True, adding some "IRL" value, your tankbuster should have better ability to hit and greater effectiveness, and lucky ground fire should be just that...lucky ground fire. At the same time, your opponent should be able to take an AA platform that has hunter-killer AA missiles that snapfire with no penalty, ignore AV and hullpoints, use a blast template, don't require LOS once fired and kill on a glancing hit, has fire control that lets it fire at, say, 4 fliers per turn, can also fire AT hunter-killer missiles...and cost 1/10 what a tankbuster does. That's "IRL", and that's why some games have fliers and people love/hate them, and some games have them but nobody bothers.

However, I also understand that GW wants to sell fliers, probably 99% of the fliers that are sold are sold to players, and players aren't going to use fliers if their fliers will probably get shot down the moment they appear by an AA piece that costs 10% what a single flier does.

 Peregrine wrote:
[Anyway, the point here is that you can't just take back half of that compromise and reduce flyer defense to realistic levels. They have AV 12/3HP for a very good reason, and if you remove that defense you have to greatly increase their firepower to compensate.