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OgreChubbs wrote:
Racism is pre concived opnion on a person place or thing that our people have had a problem with.

Except that isn't what racism is. This article isn't about racism, but prejudice. Conflating them shows a lack of understanding, but is fairly common, as you see it in this thread quite a bit.

DAaddict wrote:
What a bunch of crap. By their definition ALL people are racists. We judge on appearance/difference all the time. If you know nothing about an individual you will go on past experience. It is natural and it is common sense.

Except it doesn't say that at all. At best all people have some prejudices, but it doesn't claim that all people are racist. Those are very different claims to make.

DAaddict wrote:
Racism - going back to my example - is knowing that the black man is going to be nice and reasonable but refusing to deal with him because he is a black man.

That would be bigotry, not racism. Prejudice, bigotry, and racism are not the same thing, and conflating all them together leads to exacerbating the problem of social equality. For example, a researcher could do a study on prejudice and readers start wailing about racism and ignore the findings instead of considering them.

[

Ignoring snide examples...

The article muddles raciscm, prejudice and bigotry.
Implicit racism is prejudice. Racism is racism. Bigotry is implied by the examples of hanging Obama in effigy and bumper stickers... Those three words are all implied.

I am saying that prejudice is natural and because of ignorance and lack of exposure. Racism is also natural as we tend to associate with those of like values and perceived similarity. We all naturally make judgements on people whether it is based on color, appearance (fat, bald, unkempt), our experience and a miriad of other factors. I refuse to fault anyone who does this as this is part of human nature.

Bigotry is the one factor that bothers me. When in the face of fact you still chose to hold to your now disproven beliefs. That is hatred. That is idiocy.

Now onto the scientific nature of the article... it says it factored in political party but that it was based on all Americans. Then it goes on to say that Americans are prejudiced/racists toward blacks and hispanics... To that I say NO SH#T! The majority of Americans are neither Hispanic nor Black. So based on the natural response of the majority is going to be a reluctance to trust/have prejudice towards blacks/hispanics.

No scientific study available but I will bet if you had 3 "scientific studies" that separately checked the prejudice/racisim of each race separately, you would find that blacks harbored prejudice towards hispanics and whites, whites harbor prejudice towards blacks and hispanics and hispanics harbor prejudice towards whites and blacks.

By the way it doesn't shock me that Obama is "shockingly as implied" being hung in effiigy. As I recall Carter, Reagan, Bush and Clinton have all been hung in effigy. What a concept, a portion of the populace is disgusted with the current policies of the executive branch and hangs the head of it in effigy.

A man plays Russian Roulette with a revolver and posts a big article that sadly there is still a 1 in 6 chance that you will shoot yourself in the head. I am not in awe of his findings and won't elect him to get the Nobel prize for researching the obvious.

By the way it doesn't shock me that Obama is "shockingly as implied" being hung in effiigy. As I recall Carter, Reagan, Bush and Clinton have all been hung in effigy. What a concept, a portion of the populace is disgusted with the current policies of the executive branch and hangs the head of it in effigy.

Can anyone produce any examples of Americans hanging Carter, Reagan, Bush or Clinton in effigy? Any citations/articles documenting when this might have happened?

People have remarked that Obama being symbolically hung has a disturbing overtone of racism because of the history of lynching in this country. If there are in fact other examples of non-black Presidents being hung in effigy by Americans, that would definitely help argue the case that the act was not racist.

I can't find any examples of lynching specifically, but I can definitly find plenty of no less awful things that were done in effigy to other presidents. Especially Bush junior.

I don't see lynching someone in effigy to be any different from any other sort of thing you do in effigy. Burning, shooting, running over with a car, or smearing animal excrement in effigy. Is it really any different from a lynching?

Lynching though doesn't just cover down on the civil rights movement. It was also frontier law of the wild west.. Lynching can not be claimed by one minority since a whole slew were hung over the willow or ironwood tree.. But asking to post pictures of lynching is not the way to go. Its going to piss people off, some will defend the victim and some will argue they deserved it, This is where it geta tricky on the Mod....where do you draw the line on the lynching pics. If you let it run for a couple days that means your condoning it to feed a possible negatve flashback or inflame a group or individual.. If it kicks off I just observe and laugh over comments.

Lynching has a specific symbolism and meaning in historical context.

People are claiming this incident was not special, and that it happened to plenty of other Presidents. I don't recall it being so, but perhaps there is evidence out there to the contrary. I'm trying to be open-minded about the claim.

Jihadin, I don't follow. How are pictures of the other five Presidents named being hung in effigy going to upset people?

It never ceases to amaze me that people continue to not see the racial link within that act of lynching. Perhaps they choose to ignore it.

 Medium of Death wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people continue to not see the racial link within that act of lynching. Perhaps they choose to ignore it.

We see a connection, but we also see that its not just connected to racism. It is connected to tons of other things.

To me, lynching brings to mind the old west and vigilante justice first and formost. I imagine people in general on the west coast would have a similer thing to say.

If lynching our politicians in effigy is something Americans do to imply that they are criminals/desperados, then we should be able to find some more examples of this being done with white politicians. Presidents would be the best examples, to be most directly comparable and demonstrate that we don't hold that office in too great of respect to use that particular symbolic gesture.

If, on the other hand, it's only been done with our only black President, that would seem to lend credence to the idea that the lynching being referenced is the racist sort.

Sorry Manny seems I popped on a a bad spot. So efidy of presidents being lynched...withi n the US or oiutside the US?. Mind you this is burning effigy. that low end BS compare to monks immulation

Jihadin, I think my posts have been quite clear and explicit.

kk hold one. Let me step out to widen my eyes a bit more. Running on vivodin again and a antivan. Just had a bad memory pop up on me that I wasn't expecting that I had buried deep

George W Bush burns in effigy (Washington DC) - YouTube
Jan 23, 2009 ... George W Bush burns in effigy (Washington DC). bcrules82·1 video. Subscribe
.... "We're going to hang George Bush..."by FranklinPatriot3,820 ...

'Subversives,' by Seth Rosenfeld - NYTimes.com
Oct 5, 2012 ... The FBI's War on Student Radicals, and Reagan's Rise to Power ... was singing “
Yellow Submarine” and hanging Ronald Reagan in effigy.

Sorry got sick of looking through pre-internet history... And I looked for examples of US burning in effigy as opposed to numerous examples of islamics ( again not all but a majority) buring our Presidents in effigy.


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I am not saying it is in good taste. I am not implying that it is the most eloquent way to display your dislike of the policies of a person.

I am also not ignoring the history of lynching. What I am saying is don't paint me with the same brush or try making me feel guilty because a couple wing nuts out of 300 million do something distasteful or hateful.

If I had never learned about racism, I probably wouldn't have any biases from it.

There would still be racism.

Alright, say a person who is white as sour cream (like myself) is mugged by a black guy. The person is an idiot gets paranoid, and assumes that all black people are muggers. Then he sees Obama running for office and he freaks out that "a thug is running for president!"

Now, if we don't correct this idiot and explain to him that Obama is not "a thug", then he'll keep believing it and possibly spread this belief to more people.

 LoneLictor wrote:
There would still be racism.

Alright, say a person who is white as sour cream (like myself) is mugged by a black guy. The person is an idiot gets paranoid, and assumes that all black people are muggers. Then he sees Obama running for office and he freaks out that "a thug is running for president!"

Now, if we don't correct this idiot and explain to him that Obama is not "a thug", then he'll keep believing it and possibly spread this belief to more people.

That is prejudice, or bigotry, against black people, not racism. Racism requires believing that a group is superior based on ethnicity or race. Being scared of black people because you got mugged once is prejudice, believing that white people are inherently smarter than latinos is racism. Bigotry is usually the outcome of either, and Racism almost always includes prejudice and bigotry, but prejudice doesn't always, or even often, include racism, though bigotry can develop through prejudices.

Prejudices will always exist to some extent, and is also something that can be useful in the broadest sense, but negative and unhealthy prejudices can be unlearned through exposure and education. Racism doesn't have to exist at all, and we shouldn't tolerate it, as it diminishes us all.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I'll give the floor to Mr. Morgan Freeman.




We're all people. If we're any color we're red, because we all bleed the same.

See, here's the thing. You posted that video thinking Morgan Freeman's point was particularly insightful - stop talking about race. He stops being a black man, Mike whatshisface stops being a white man and hey, there goes race and racism.

But you posted that video thinking that point was particularly strong... because it came from a black man. It's the kind of thing a lot of white people have been saying for a long time, but here it was coming from a black guy, and when a black guys says it that must be case closed on talking about racism.

How strong you believed his point to be was influenced, very strongly, by the colour of his skin. And that's not a bad thing, per se, but it is a thing. And it will continue to be a thing whether we talk about it or not. All the impacts of racism has on people's lives simply don't go away because people don't talk about it.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
If we don't bring race up, it ceases to matter. And eventually it will dissolve in its influence on our thinking.

No, not even slightly. Black people will still be earning about 2/3 of what white people do, whether race is mentioned or not.


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DAaddict wrote:
Racism - going back to my example - is knowing that the black man is going to be nice and reasonable but refusing to deal with him because he is a black man.

No, it isn't. You can't debate by making up your own meanings for words.

When people have a reaction to a person based on some meaningless physically attribute, like a bald head that isn't good. For instance, if you really did think a person was likely to rip you off when you saw their bald head, that'd be a silly, and potentially destructive thing to think. For bald people who might miss out on your business, and for you who might be denying yourself a good business opportunity. And if you realised this and told people, you and everyone you told would realise it's a stupid, nonsense thing to think, and you'd almost certainly work on overcoming such a strange, and stupid set of thoughts.

But when those same ideas are about black people, people start making up bs excuses and looking for ways to justify it.


And yes, all people are a little bit racist. Realising that, and doing what you can to be a bit less racist is the whole fething point.


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 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
If I had never learned about racism, I probably wouldn't have any biases from it.

No. There was all manner of racist thought before people ever thought to collect those ideas together, call them 'racist thought' and study how they work.

And we've had racist thought in our culture for centuries, and it's flowed through into our storytelling. Even if you were never directly told anything racist, you'd still be thrown thousands of racist stereotypes every year just through seeing popular culture.

There's just no point in pretending this stuff doesn't exist.

I dream of world where one day we can think everyone else is an ignorant fethhead with out the level of one's fethheadedness not being dependent on their respective melanin levels.

I'm going to stop following this topic because it's not going to go any where but I will say this Seb you're wrong. I came to that conclusion long before Morgan Freeman did that interview, I like his point and the way he said it regardless of his skin tone, he's a great actor, a power orator and a rather intelligent individual. These traits are why I think highly of him and what he has to say on many subjects. It really doesn't matter what color he is.

In the end, you're all green to me any way.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I dream of world where one day we can think everyone else is an ignorant fethhead with out the level of one's fethheadedness not being dependent on their respective melanin levels.

I'm going to stop following this topic because it's not going to go any where but I will say this Seb you're wrong. I came to that conclusion long before Morgan Freeman did that interview, I like his point and the way he said it regardless of his skin tone, he's a great actor, a power orator and a rather intelligent individual. These traits are why I think highly of him and what he has to say on many subjects. It really doesn't matter what color he is.

That's not what I said, read more closely. I never mentioned why you might like him in general, I didn't know you did, nor did I care.

I said you posted him saying that, and not one of the hundreds of white people who have said exactly the same thing... because you felt it was more convincing when it came from a black guy. And it is different when a black person says it. The problem is that that's exactly why it's wrong, no matter who says it. Even when we like to think we're nothing like those horrible racist people, we treat people and the things they say differently depending on their skin colour.

Pretending that racism doesn't exist doesn't stop racism existing. And I hope you take the time to read this, because it's always a shame when someone says they're just going to declare themselves right and stop reading.

I think this is supposed to be Sarah Palin.

http://i.imgur.com/XZ1NV.jpg

Carter

http://thestar.blogs.com/.a/6a00d8341bf8f353ef0120a7a5de5d970b-800wi

And the rest are either islamic or Obama.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I can't help but wonder if there's potential for confirmation bias in a study like this as well.

Racism has been making politics a stone cold pain in the arse to talk about since Obama came into office. I've had more then a few people accuse me of racism because I dislike the President and I find that entire train of thought "You disagree with me and dislike the Chosen One, therefore it must be because of his skin tone." is annoying as all hell.

I'll give the floor to Mr. Morgan Freeman.




We're all people. If we're any color we're red, because we all bleed the same.

Speak for yourself, my heart's so dead and twisted, I bleed obsidian baby!


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 Ahtman wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

An excellent example for showing that most people are completely ignorant of the purpose and function of AA.

Ahtman don't assume I'm ignorant on AA. I'm neither for or against it but I understand the reason behind it.

Then you can explain why your statement had nothing to do with Affirmative Action. The ability to bring up race in a discussion about race is not an AA issue. I feel you might be thinking of Political Correctness, which is not the same thing. Perhaps you meant something else, or perhaps you do know something more than you are saying, but as long as all you post are one sentence sarcastic responses with little to no information to contextualize what you mean you will continue to get confused responses, or make people think you don't truly have a grasp of what something is.

In all fairness though I was responding to the 'AA leads to racism' accusation.

This is why we can't talk about race and prejudice. Everyone gets all angry angry about it.

"Keep calm and kill zombies."
-button worn by Genghis Connie throughout October.


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 Bromsy wrote:
Guys, the whole anti Scientology thing was sooo last year.

Now we're on to hating grammar school teachers, those smug bastards. You probably haven't gotten the flyer yet, that's how hip and new it is.

I'm down with that. We don't need no grammar school teachers. I done learned my readin on my own and I learned it more gooder!


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 Mannahnin wrote:

By the way it doesn't shock me that Obama is "shockingly as implied" being hung in effiigy. As I recall Carter, Reagan, Bush and Clinton have all been hung in effigy. What a concept, a portion of the populace is disgusted with the current policies of the executive branch and hangs the head of it in effigy.

Can anyone produce any examples of Americans hanging Carter, Reagan, Bush or Clinton in effigy? Any citations/articles documenting when this might have happened?

People have remarked that Obama being symbolically hung has a disturbing overtone of racism because of the history of lynching in this country. If there are in fact other examples of non-black Presidents being hung in effigy by Americans, that would definitely help argue the case that the act was not racist.

I've seen them with Bush and Cheney. I've also saw them with Reagan. Its shockingly not appropriate, but its the First Amendment.


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 Grey Templar wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people continue to not see the racial link within that act of lynching. Perhaps they choose to ignore it.

We see a connection, but we also see that its not just connected to racism. It is connected to tons of other things.

To me, lynching brings to mind the old west and vigilante justice first and formost. I imagine people in general on the west coast would have a similer thing to say.

As a Texan lynching has a bifurcated meaning. One term most thought of is frontier justice. The old tale of cattle and horse thieves being hung from the nearest tree really happend ( a lot) and wasn't a Hollywood story. At the same time, in the South, lynching of African Americans and their supporters also occurred ( a lot), and is very much tied to the KKK. Its the same reason a burning church has special meaning here.

As I stated earlier, its not appropriate and the people are doing it should be chastised for their behavior. Is it racism? Who cares - its wrong.

 Mannahnin wrote:


If, on the other hand, it's only been done with our only black President, that would seem to lend credence to the idea that the lynching being referenced is the racist sort.

It's not that I disagree you; it's just that this is topical:


Nothing ever happens until it is the first time that thing has happened, at which point it becomes the first and only time that thing happens up until it happens again which causes it to be a trend. At the risk of being accused of having my head in the sand, it's not demonstrably proven to be racially motivated until it is.

Also, callous alert, but so what? Yeah, we've got some pretty terrible people here who judge and hate people based solely upon their skin, just like Great Britian, Russia, anywhere in the Middle East, and everywhere else in the world. We've also got people here who will gak on each other to get ever the slightest ahead in life, abusing each other without a second thought... just like everywhere else in the world. People lie, cheat, steal, and are generally terrible, and there's really not much you can do to stop them. All you can do is really try to live your life the best you can, hope that example catches on, and try not to get too bitter in the process.

Personally, I always associate lynching with that scene in the third Back to the Future, because that's where I first recall, as a child, seeing it depicted.

 Frazzled wrote:
This is why we can't talk about race and prejudice. Everyone gets all angry angry about it.

I see your 'reading things that aren't there' skills are as strong as ever.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
This is why we can't talk about race and prejudice. Everyone gets all angry angry about it.

I see your 'reading things that aren't there' skills are as strong as ever.

Ditto. You're assuming I disagreed with you.
But my statem ent still holds. One cannot have a full on discussion of "race" (ask a dog, we're all the same "race"), without it going off the chart.
On the one hand you have the PC times, wherein persons who disagree can be called racist or bigot at the drop of a hat. On the other hand you have people deny there are undertones to things.

In this instance.
Yes effigy hanging has occurred in the past. It was wrong.
With the current occupation this could have special meaning, even if not intended. Its still wrong.

Racism is human nature.

Show me a man with no racial prejudices, and he is either a saint, or more likely a liar.

This news totally shocks me to the core:

In addition, the surveys asked how well respondents thought certain words, such as "friendly," ''hardworking," ''violent" and "lazy," described blacks, whites and Hispanics.

Oh I guess not. Because I doubt it went like this.



In case you missed it the survey was based on some photo and assosiation of the previous photo Mumbo jumbo.

Wait is that the guy who shot the squirrel which turned out to be a girl-from his porch?

Two threads over

No he's from Tennessee. I just searched for dirty white neck tattoo and picked one.

BTW...the convict...is that a tattoo below his eye?