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The dark welder are a glass cannon army even at the best of times, our units tend to vaporise whenever we get shot at, (which with 6th ed is a lot) and over watch hasn't helped too Much either. I think it would be viable that getting a pain token from killing a unit deserves and one that gives feel no pain should be a 4+, as most units would be running high on adrenalin after killing one. And living with pain everyday would increase your pain tolerance wouldn't it? Just my two cents.

With dark eldar imo is still too fragile, its too easy to double them out.

Yeah but at least a 4+ would give them that little bit more survivability outside of cc

Not necessary. Nobody else has it, why should DE?

If played properly then there should be little (dangerous) shooting at them. If they do need a buff (which IMO they don't, they still match up well against most all) it should be movement increases. They are not designed to be durable.

I'd take more speed/damage over durability any day of the week.

Power From Pain is a trivial rule for Dark Eldar. It almost never comes up. There's no need for it to violate a basic mechanic.

It'd bring coven units back up to the hardiness they were in 5th tbh.

Even if you just made it that units with Altered Physique received +1 to FNP I think it'd suffice (as these units are meant to be slow and tough, and fnp is generally their only save.)

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Power From Pain is a trivial rule for Dark Eldar. It almost never comes up. There's no need for it to violate a basic mechanic.

it is far from trivial but outside of FNP it doesnt give anything to shooty units and DE assault has been nerfed so badly it is no longer a mechanic with much power.

Personally I would rather have some other things added to pfp or rules that help with the way 6th works than better FNP

For me the PFP table should look like
1 FNP
2 FC and Hatred (Everything)
3 Fearless
4 Preferred Enemy(everything)
5 Shrouded

DE flyers should get vector dancer

Combat drugs on a 1 should give something other than running, perhaps stealth.

DE vehciles should be able to move 9" and then disembark 6"

Things like that would make the army competitive working with the new rules, not trying to make the old rules work in the new edition.

ThatMG wrote:
Dark eldar are weak for many reasons

That statement is preposterous. Honestly, how can someone even think that. You may as well have said billionaires don't have enough money.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

ThatMG wrote:
Dark eldar are weak for many reasons

That statement is preposterous. Honestly, how can someone even think that. You may as well have said billionaires don't have enough money.

I assumed he was refering to the fragility inherrant to the dark kin.

At the end of the day, they are weak. Low strength, low toughness, low saves.
What makes up for this is our speed (hurt some in 6th... Especially being our fast transports only deliver us as far as slow ones now), and ability to bypass toughness / armour with special rules.

Our speed has been given to many of the other races now, hypes was useless at the best of times, kin fifth it was alright I guess, but now in sixth? There needs to be a new PfP table I think


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it is far from trivial but outside of FNP it doesnt give anything to shooty units and DE assault has been nerfed so badly it is no longer a mechanic with much power.

Personally I would rather have some other things added to pfp or rules that help with the way 6th works than better FNP

For me the PFP table should look like
1 FNP
2 FC and Hatred (Everything)
3 Fearless
4 Preferred Enemy(everything)
5 Shrouded

DE flyers should get vector dancer

Combat drugs on a 1 should give something other than running, perhaps stealth.

DE vehciles should be able to move 9" and then disembark 6"

Things like that would make the army competitive working with the new rules, not trying to make the old rules work in the new edition.

Sorry have you guys played with/against DE yet? It was one of the strongest hardest codices in 5th and still is in 6th. In my mind 6th made it even easier to play them since you get to measure absolutely everything.

So you can't run a good foot wych army - get over it? I can't run a good SM scout army, tau can't run a good kroot army and CSM apparently can't run a good army period.

Almarine wrote:
Sorry have you guys played with/against DE yet? It was one of the strongest hardest codices in 5th and still is in 6th. In my mind 6th made it even easier to play them since you get to measure absolutely everything.

So you can't run a good foot wych army - get over it? I can't run a good SM scout army, tau can't run a good kroot army and CSM apparently can't run a good army period.

So basically we have a bunch of problems but instead of fixing it lets just ignore it. You sir, would make a great politician.

 Necrosis wrote:

Almarine wrote:
Sorry have you guys played with/against DE yet? It was one of the strongest hardest codices in 5th and still is in 6th. In my mind 6th made it even easier to play them since you get to measure absolutely everything.

So you can't run a good foot wych army - get over it? I can't run a good SM scout army, tau can't run a good kroot army and CSM apparently can't run a good army period.

So basically we have a bunch of problems but instead of fixing it lets just ignore it. You sir, would make a great politician.

I never said they were problems, it's just the way the game works. I suppose you think it's a problem how IG can't do reliable MSU assault armies as well?

Almarine wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:

Almarine wrote:
Sorry have you guys played with/against DE yet? It was one of the strongest hardest codices in 5th and still is in 6th. In my mind 6th made it even easier to play them since you get to measure absolutely everything.

So you can't run a good foot wych army - get over it? I can't run a good SM scout army, tau can't run a good kroot army and CSM apparently can't run a good army period.

So basically we have a bunch of problems but instead of fixing it lets just ignore it. You sir, would make a great politician.

I never said they were problems, it's just the way the game works. I suppose you think it's a problem how IG can't do reliable MSU assault armies as well?

Now your changing the argument. You've gone to say these units suck to this army can't do this when you put these restrictions on it. Once again you prove you would make an excellent politician. Please, if your not going to contribute to this thread just leave.

To be honest, a cheap vehicle upgrade like tau disruption pods would probably fix about 90% of the problems I have with DE at the moment

 Necrosis wrote:

Now your changing the argument. You've gone to say these units suck to this army can't do this when you put these restrictions on it. Once again you prove you would make an excellent politician. Please, if your not going to contribute to this thread just leave.

It is the same argument. Every unit has restrictions that fit the theme of its army. DE are supposed to be a glass cannon type of gaming experience, people like being glass cannons.

That's why DE have higher initiative, higher weapon skill, fleet and fast open topped transports to compensate for being fragile. What you're saying is, let's make them not actually be fragile as that would make them a stronger choice. Yeah no gak, why not let chaos characters pick their own chaos boons?

Wait you can't disembark after moving 6"... where does it say that in the rules?

Almarine wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:

Now your changing the argument. You've gone to say these units suck to this army can't do this when you put these restrictions on it. Once again you prove you would make an excellent politician. Please, if your not going to contribute to this thread just leave.

It is the same argument. Every unit has restrictions that fit the theme of its army. DE are supposed to be a glass cannon type of gaming experience, people like being glass cannons.

That's why DE have higher initiative, higher weapon skill, fleet and fast open topped transports to compensate for being fragile. What you're saying is, let's make them not actually be fragile as that would make them a stronger choice. Yeah no gak, why not let chaos characters pick their own chaos boons?

First of all it is a different argument. Saying a unit does not work is not the same as saying an army can't do a certain thing when you put restrictions on it. Also dark eldar use to be able to be a tough army by running wracks (it even said so in the codex) but due to the changes of fnp, these lists no longer work. So the dark eldar went from having 3 decent lists to 1. The army was design for a 4+ fnp. And when they had a 4+ fnp, no one complained about it, it was balance and fun.

 Necrosis wrote:
Dark eldar use to be able to be a tough army by running wracks (it even said so in the codex) but due to the changes of fnp, these lists no longer work. So the dark eldar went from having 3 decent lists to 1. The army was design for a 4+ fnp. And when they had a 4+ fnp, no one complained about it, it was balance and fun.

I don't know, I seem to recall people complaining quite a lot. Just not the DE players since they were winning. Also I don't buy that a 17% nerf to the likelihood of passing an FNP roll made wrack lists unplayable. You should note that while the FNP became a bit weaker, you can now take FNP against attacks that ignore armour.
So, if you gave them the 4+ FNP back, they would in fact get stronger than they were.

I hate to say it, but Almarine does have a point...

nickick wrote:
I hate to say it, but Almarine does have a point...

Damn! I have failed my dark lords!!!

No but really, I guess go ahead and play it like this if you can find someone who lets you. Just saying it might be a hard sell, especially if your list is already competitive.

If DE get a 4+ Feel No Pain then my thousand year old Nurgle Marine gets it too.

Seriously though, if you bump even one number in a unit's stat line it can seriously change game balance. FNP got nerfed across the board for 6th edition. 6th edition is balanced for a 5+ Feel No Pain. I've always suggested giving them some sort of dodge save on overwatch. 5+ dodge, 5+ FNP would be pretty good. You'd be extremely unlikely to lose any on the overwatch.

But its been said before, wyches aren't meant to be durable. They're lithe and agile.

Wracks / Grots are meant to be durable.
And to be honest - I'd spent the preceeding months before 6th came out working on a massive Webway Portal List - which got kneecapped.
We got slower, we got softer, we can't assault out of the webway anymore, can't put more than half in reserve...

Shooty DE are fine, as good as ever, if not better.
Most any other force, Has taken a hit.

 Ovion wrote:
Wracks / Grots are meant to be durable.

Grotesques, sure. And they still are durable. They have five toughness, three wounds, and a 5+ save that will almost never be ignored. That's pretty damn durable.

Wracks were never tough. They were only "tough" compared to the rest of Dark Eldar, and they still are. They have a higher toughness and a save they actually get to take. Don't confuse that with "meant to be durable". They were only meant to be more durable than a kabalite warrior or wych, and they still are.