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Simple for me really: join the IG, get a lasgun, put said lasgun on full auto, shoot my entire unit in the back, make a summoning circle out of their corpses, summon daemons to kill everyone else, then lol my way to the Eye of Terror.

Unless your a Space Marine, joining Chaos isn't going to have much of an up side. Remember from DoW: "my spleeeeen!"

 Manchu wrote:
Unless your a Space Marine, joining Chaos isn't going to have much of an up side. Remember from DoW: "my spleeeeen!"

Daemon princes existed before Space Marines did. Plus, it'd be possible to become a Marine if you joined the right cult.

Good luck to you then!

Thank you. Hopefully I shall soon be at the head of a ravening horde.

More likely, the highest honor you'll achieve is having your soul used as a loin cloth for a plaguebearer. But Chaos will no doubt be grateful for your support (nudge nudge).

 Tadashi wrote:

And if he really is dead? Those miracles will cease to function. They might wait for his resurrection, but after a few decades, let alone a couple of centuries, they will lose hope.

Faith is all that matters.

 Durza wrote:
Simple for me really: join the IG, get a lasgun, put said lasgun on full auto, shoot my entire unit in the back, make a summoning circle out of their corpses, summon daemons to kill everyone else, then lol my way to the Eye of Terror.

Possibly the best thing I've read yet on this forum.

That said, I would be the Commissar to shoot you in the back of the head. (Just kidding I'd probably just join in)

"DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!!11!!!!1!"

Ironically I play GK sooooo....

 Manchu wrote:

1068SCP wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
There are some pretty chilling portrayals of human life under Tau rule in the Death Watch RPG books.

I haven't read Deathwatch and am just going by codex fluff and the Black Library. Do you mine pulling a few of those specific sections out?

Here you go: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458234.page

That's certainly disturbing. It sounds similar to the Argentinian government's behavior during the disappearances.

However, you admit in your own post that such behavior is similar to that of the Imperium; the only real difference is that the family members are brain-washed. Which is terrible, yes, but it's still a superior choice to "you die", "you get enslaved by Chaos" and "you get tortured by the Dark Eldar."

 Manchu wrote:
What source says the Tau prefer to colonize Human- rather than Ork- or Chaos-controlled worlds? I mean, what do you think O'Shovah was doing?

Common sense.

And O'Shovah was fighting costly wars against Orks just to grab the terrain they stood on (A stupid decision by the way; Ork worlds are difficult to keep because of the spores they leave behind). The Tau would have tried to grab those worlds either the Imperium or Orks, but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation. Against the Orks, there is only war.

1068SCP wrote:
...but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation.

Not really. Tau have it easy because they're on the Imperial Frontier - if they catch the attention of the Imperial heartland, its the end. The Damocles Gulf Crusade was only a minor one, barely worthy of the title 'Crusade'. Likewise, majority of engagements between the Tau and the Imperium are minor skirmishes, at least as far as the greater Imperium are concerned. The only time the Tau have ever truly engaged a significant fraction of the Imperium's might would be the Zeist Campaign, with over ten Chapters involved. Worthy of a large-scale Imperial Crusade, they not only stopped the Tau advance, they forced it to retreat, and only the greater Imperium's decision that the Tau were not important enough to warrant Guard and Naval support for a push into the Tau heartland prevented a Crusade from materializing.

 Tadashi wrote:

1068SCP wrote:
...but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation.

Not really. Tau have it easy because they're on the Imperial Frontier - if they catch the attention of the Imperial heartland, its the end. The Damocles Gulf Crusade was only a minor one, barely worthy of the title 'Crusade'. Likewise, majority of engagements between the Tau and the Imperium are minor skirmishes, at least as far as the greater Imperium are concerned. The only time the Tau have ever truly engaged a significant fraction of the Imperium's might would be the Zeist Campaign, with over ten Chapters involved. Worthy of a large-scale Imperial Crusade, they not only stopped the Tau advance, they forced it to retreat, and only the greater Imperium's decision that the Tau were not important enough to warrant Guard and Naval support for a push into the Tau heartland prevented a Crusade from materializing.

My quoted comment was about why the Tau would consider Imperial worlds better targets for colonization than Ork worlds.

You somehow misconstrued that as a statement that the Tau could be a significant military threat to the Imperium.

1068SCP wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

1068SCP wrote:
...but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation.

Not really. Tau have it easy because they're on the Imperial Frontier - if they catch the attention of the Imperial heartland, its the end. The Damocles Gulf Crusade was only a minor one, barely worthy of the title 'Crusade'. Likewise, majority of engagements between the Tau and the Imperium are minor skirmishes, at least as far as the greater Imperium are concerned. The only time the Tau have ever truly engaged a significant fraction of the Imperium's might would be the Zeist Campaign, with over ten Chapters involved. Worthy of a large-scale Imperial Crusade, they not only stopped the Tau advance, they forced it to retreat, and only the greater Imperium's decision that the Tau were not important enough to warrant Guard and Naval support for a push into the Tau heartland prevented a Crusade from materializing.

My quoted comment was about why the Tau would consider Imperial worlds better targets for colonization than Ork worlds.

You somehow misconstrued that as a statement that the Tau could be a significant military threat to the Imperium.

Subverting Imperial worlds IS an act of war, at least IRL. Thankfully (for the Tau at least), the greater Imperium sees them as little more than a frontier annoyance.

 Tadashi wrote:
Subverting Imperial worlds IS an act of war, at least IRL. Thankfully (for the Tau at least), the greater Imperium sees them as little more than a frontier annoyance.

Again: This has nothing to do with my argument that the Tau would almost certainly prefer conquering Imperial worlds to Ork ones or Tyranid-stricken ones, and therefore they do not see the Imperium as "The Great Enemy".

Stop trying to turn this into "Who would win: Tau vs Imperium". It's irrelevant to the current topic and we all know the answer anyways.

1068SCP wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Subverting Imperial worlds IS an act of war, at least IRL. Thankfully (for the Tau at least), the greater Imperium sees them as little more than a frontier annoyance.

Again: This has nothing to do with my argument that the Tau would almost certainly prefer conquering Imperial worlds to Ork ones or Tyranid-stricken ones, and therefore they do not see the Imperium as "The Great Enemy".

There is only one 'Great Enemy' - Chaos. Even the Eldar would agree with Humans on that.

 Tadashi wrote:
There is only one 'Great Enemy' - Chaos. Even the Eldar would agree with Humans on that.

Then we are in agreement (Although the Tau are almost certainly unaware of Chaos's danger).

1068SCP wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Subverting Imperial worlds IS an act of war, at least IRL. Thankfully (for the Tau at least), the greater Imperium sees them as little more than a frontier annoyance.

Again: This has nothing to do with my argument that the Tau would almost certainly prefer conquering Imperial worlds to Ork ones or Tyranid-stricken ones, and therefore they do not see the Imperium as "The Great Enemy".

Stop trying to turn this into "Who would win: Tau vs Imperium". It's irrelevant to the current topic and we all know the answer anyways.

sorry 1068SCP anytime Tau are mentioned or discussed in a thread where the imperium is concerned it always devolves into this..its best to smile , nod , and back away from the crazies.

and never drink the kool-aid they offer you.

1068SCP wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
There is only one 'Great Enemy' - Chaos. Even the Eldar would agree with Humans on that.

Then we are in agreement (Although the Tau are almost certainly unaware of Chaos's danger).

For which they should be thankful...for now. I believed its mentioned somewhere that their cosmopolitan nature is their greatest strength, but also their greatest weakness - the assimilation of other races, in particular those with psychic potential, could prove disastrous in the future.

As an Ultramarine with chainsword and bolter in hand surrounded on all four sides by 10 foot walls of heretics and deamons

1068SCP wrote:
However, you admit in your own post that such behavior is similar to that of the Imperium; the only real difference is that the family members are brain-washed. Which is terrible, yes, but it's still a superior choice to "you die", "you get enslaved by Chaos" and "you get tortured by the Dark Eldar."

Life under the Imperium is basically enslavement. And life under the Tau is basically enslavement. While it is not ideal to be a slave to anyone, it's better to be enslaved by your own species than alien filth. No matter how badly another human treats you, you are both still humans and apparently no amount of gene-therapy, augments, or shiny medals can really change that. But with the xeno, there is no commonality. Accepting the alien as your master is just as foul a self-debasement as worshiping the Great Enemy because both are ultimately admissions of human worthlessness. A human can find dignity in serving humanity, even in the most menial capacity. Kneel before the xenos, and you lose everything worthwhile -- for the sake of what? What good is a life not spent in obedience to the Emperor?

1068SCP wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
What source says the Tau prefer to colonize Human- rather than Ork- or Chaos-controlled worlds? I mean, what do you think O'Shovah was doing?

Common sense.

And O'Shovah was fighting costly wars against Orks just to grab the terrain they stood on (A stupid decision by the way; Ork worlds are difficult to keep because of the spores they leave behind). The Tau would have tried to grab those worlds either the Imperium or Orks, but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation. Against the Orks, there is only war.

The Tau are a colonial race. They're looking for more space for their own. Yes, they will give whoever is already there the option of surrendering and yes, there is some chance humans might accept and no chance that orks will. But that doesn't change that what the Tau primarily want is the world. Their actions have shown that their preferences for expansion are not contingent upon whoever may be currently occupying a planet. The Tau do not shy away from war.

I find it interesting that so often the Imperium's oppressive behavior and bigotry is justified by readers in the name of survival of the species, and that survival of humanity is worth any price. By that logic, humanity should immediately submit to Chaos or aliens if the Imperium is no longer a viable way of ensuring survival. Yet it is interesting that people then seem to be willing to choose the path of suicidal last stand despite this reasoning of humanity's survival being worth any price.

Valiantly fight on in the Emperors name unti I realised that my allies are dead, and I can't continue to fight on in His Glorious Name without others. So I'd ally with the Tau, as long as their greater good was akin to mine.

Iracundus wrote:
I find it interesting that so often the Imperium's oppressive behavior and bigotry is justified by readers in the name of survival of the species, and that survival of humanity is worth any price. By that logic, humanity should immediately submit to Chaos or aliens if the Imperium is no longer a viable way of ensuring survival. Yet it is interesting that people then seem to be willing to choose the path of suicidal last stand despite this reasoning of humanity's survival being worth any price.

You don't seem to understand the viewpoint you're criticizing. The Emperor had to rebuild genetically pure humans during the unification because the terrible conditions on Terra had so badly mutated people. Human survival from the Imperial standpoint is inextricably equal to human purity and dominance. The creation of the Thunder Warriors and Space Marines as well as the reliance on psykers and augmentation are the ironic but necessary evils of this goal. Human survival from the so-called puritain monodomnant orthodox position is contradicted in a fundamental way by human submission to mutants, Chaos, or aliens. The Imperium is not arbitrarily bigoted against these groups; rather, the Emperor determined that the galactic dominance of authentic humans was the only meaningful way that humans could survive.

In other words, backflipping over what survival is, and setting additional conditions of trying to re-define what constitutes human. Human submission to xenos, Chaos, or whatever is still survival of the species.

I am not talking about in-universe points of view. I am talking about out of universe points of view, where the brutality and bigotry of the Imperium is brushed off as necessary evils for survival. However the existence of entire human societies under alien control (Tau being an example), or Chaos societies in the Eye of Terror show that there are more ways of survival than just the Imperium's way.

The hypothetical scenario in this thread is of the Emperor being dead and gone. If so that means the Imperium is not viable anymore, and neither is the Emperor's ideology. If survival of humanity is important, then there is no reason to hold fast to a discredited ideology and failed leader any longer. Alliance or submission to either Chaos or another power, such as an alien, are then the only logical responses if one wants humanity to survive. Ideological survival of a particular faction is not what is being discussed here, but the survival of humanity the species. Humanity may live a brutal life of anarchy under Chaos and enslavement to gods or to aliens, but it would survive, and arguably that is not that different to being oppressed and effectively enslaved by the Imperium. The masters just change.

So much of the Imperial ideology is pure propaganda and the Imperium's actions are hypocritical. The Inquisition goes on about doing whatever it takes, yet then balks at Kryptmann's initial bio-mass denial strategy of destroying worlds in the path of Leviathan. It just shows that when push comes to shove, there is a limit to what the Imperium and the Inquisition does.

I just see this parallel in readers and players that argue that any action is justifiable if it results in humanity's survival. Yet when it comes to actually sticking to this stance of survival being worth any action, suddenly all sorts of new excuses and rationales get thrown up if such actions suddenly involve siding with aliens or Chaos. Cognitive dissonance anyone? If some actions for survival are not acceptable, then the original stance of any action being justifiable for survival cannot hold true.

Humanity's survival is not enough - continued Human domination is also necessary. The latter cannot exist without the latter...and the former is meaningless if Mankind is subjugated by eldritch abominations from another realm or to creatures not of Mankind. Psykers, Navigators, and even Astartes may be freaks, but they're still Human for all that.

EDIT: Not to mention naturally-stable Human psykers represent the next step of natural Human evolution, so they're not really freaks in that light...the unstable Human psykers are just gakky prototypes, so to speak.

It seems to be taken as an axiom that humans must dominate and if not then be better off dead. But really, have we really looked at why that has to be? Is it just because of our own prejudices being human and arrogance that we cannot accept being not at the top?

Humanity was not dominant in the galaxy for the majority of humanity's history. The Eldar were the dominant species, yet humanity still survived, and actually so did many other sentient alien species in the galaxy.

Take the humans under Tau rule for example. The Tau may not be all bright and goodness, but the individual standard of living seems to be better than the work mills and ghetto slums of a hive city in the Imperium. It may be an unequal relationship, and may certainly run counter to modern ideas about equality, but given the alternative of extinction (such as by Tyranids), it would certainly seem a viable albeit sub-optimal arrangement.

Iracundus wrote:
It seems to be taken as an axiom that humans must dominate and if not then be better off dead. But really, have we really looked at why that has to be? Is it just because of our own prejudices being human and arrogance that we cannot accept being not at the top?

Humanity was not dominant in the galaxy for the majority of humanity's history. The Eldar were the dominant species, yet humanity still survived, and actually so did many other sentient alien species in the galaxy.

Take the humans under Tau rule for example. The Tau may not be all bright and goodness, but the individual standard of living seems to be better than the work mills and ghetto slums of a hive city in the Imperium. It may be an unequal relationship, and may certainly run counter to modern ideas about equality, but given the alternative of extinction (such as by Tyranids), it would certainly seem a viable albeit sub-optimal arrangement.

There is more certainty in believing in yourself than than in others. By that reasoning, Human rule is more reliable and secure for Humans than xenos/Chaotic rule.

EDIT: It is Human nature to seek to dominate others, whether our fellow Humans or other species. And we do not need to suppress/reject/deny it - it is perfectly natural for Humans to act in such a manner. To do so is to become less than Human. For Humans to become more than Human, we must accept our nature and use it to benefit the species as a whole.

Some crazy crap is being posted in this thread!

 Tadashi wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
It seems to be taken as an axiom that humans must dominate and if not then be better off dead. But really, have we really looked at why that has to be? Is it just because of our own prejudices being human and arrogance that we cannot accept being not at the top?

Humanity was not dominant in the galaxy for the majority of humanity's history. The Eldar were the dominant species, yet humanity still survived, and actually so did many other sentient alien species in the galaxy.

Take the humans under Tau rule for example. The Tau may not be all bright and goodness, but the individual standard of living seems to be better than the work mills and ghetto slums of a hive city in the Imperium. It may be an unequal relationship, and may certainly run counter to modern ideas about equality, but given the alternative of extinction (such as by Tyranids), it would certainly seem a viable albeit sub-optimal arrangement.

There is more certainty in believing in yourself than than in others. By that reasoning, Human rule is more reliable and secure for Humans than xenos/Chaotic rule.

EDIT: It is Human nature to seek to dominate others, whether our fellow Humans or other species. And we do not need to suppress/reject/deny it - it is perfectly natural for Humans to act in such a manner. To do so is to become less than Human. For Humans to become more than Human, we must accept our nature and use it to benefit the species as a whole.

That is a contentious statement to make. There are quite a few examples of minor powers in the world today that have no desire to dominate and appear happy to be left to their own devices and live their own way of life in their territory.

Movies like Avatar show it is quite possible for human movie-goers to empathize and support non-human protagonists and to be able to view humans as antagonists, or at least not having the best way of doing things. This shows that humans are not restricted to purely siding along species lines even today. So a claim that human audiences will always side with humans in fiction is false.

It is better to have a slice of the pie rather than trying to have it all and ending up with none.

Join the tau with out a question. if they expanded as rapidly as they have, in no time they will be the strongest in the galaxy if for no other reason than superior tech.

Anyone who thinks humans can peacefully and safely live with aliens in 40k has failed to grasp even the most basic principles of the setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:
It is better to have a slice of the pie rather than trying to have it all and ending up with none.

For humanity in 40k, there is no difference between having only a slice and having nothing. Either way, we would starve to death. Therefore, if we must starve, then let us leave the rest poisoned so that hideous Chaos and the filthy xenos choke on it.