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This was brought up in my flgs: does a DP with Black Mace use AP 2 or AP 4
My initial thought is AP 4 as AP 2 is plain OP (Kill a marine or two, rest of the squad drops scenario would occur every assault). However, if a giant demon hits you with an evil stick, your beloved PA probably might crush. Any thoughts?

The attacks made with the mace are both AP4 and AP2 at the same time. of course the cumulative effect is just AP2.

Monstrous creatures always hit at ap2 unless better as per the rulebook.

AP2 it may seem OP but it's pricey once it's all said and done.

Makes sense, thanks

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Monstrous creatures always hit at ap2 unless better as per the rulebook.

Where does it say that?

Smash special rule

Right, but @liturgies responded "always", and Smash is by no means a requirement.

Reread Smash.

A model with Smash is ALWAYS AP2 in melee combat, unless it has a weapon with better AP.

It also has the option of doubling its Str while halving its attacks.

Fine, always is too general. Everything but hammer of wraith get's smash, smash gives attacks ap2 unless better.

Crap... read that incorrectly then...

So m,y commander with a Thunder hammer is I1 and I5..
So I lill use I5

Sinny! wrote:
So m,y commander with a Thunder hammer is I1 and I5..
So I lill use I5

Wrong, your commander is I5. But all his attacks happen at I1. Its crystal clear in the rules.

It was sarcasm

It was also a poor analogy.

So follow up question. The smash attack is made after you roll +D6 for the demon weapon right? Half of 4 is 2, but half of 10 is 5. I'm pretty sure it's after, but not 100%

Humblesteve wrote:
So follow up question. The smash attack is made after you roll +D6 for the demon weapon right? Half of 4 is 2, but half of 10 is 5. I'm pretty sure it's after, but not 100%

No it's the unmodified IIRC so if you have 4 attacks base you now have 2+1(charge)+d6 Mace

Well it doesn't say unmodified it says halve its attacks characteristic, which to me means base attacks.

The Halving of Smash is of your base characteristic. Any bonus attacks are not halved.


So a 3 attack MC that is charging and has 2 CCWs will end up with 4 attacks at double strength.

You half 3 to 1.5, round up to 2. Then add +1 for charging and +1 for having 2 CCWs.

Follow multiple modifiers. Halving (which is multiplying) occurs before anything - so you halve, add 1 (or 2) for charging, then the daemon weapons +D6

Yup, exactly as stated. Ap 2, base attacks /2 + 1 for charge +1d6 for weapon.

It's not so bad though, just toss a single str 10 shot at the old DP and watch him fall.

Just curious...am I correct in assuming that if a DP with the Black Mace makes a smash attack, the 1d6 attacks from the daemon weapon are also double strength.

So 5/2= 3 (rounded up) + 1d6 daemon weapon + 1 for charge all at Str10 is that correct?

Yep, that is correct.

That is so broken! Might start a chaos army....

You say 'that's so broken', but really, you're paying 45pts to add D6 attacks and the RFG effect to its attacks.

It's 225pts for a Daemon Prince with a Mark, Power Armour and the Black Mace. 265 with Wings if you want those.

You're paying 45pts to do... what? Remove a few models extra here and there and gain +D6 attacks?
The prince is already hitting with Str6, AP2 (instant Deathing T3) and can Smash to instant death anything up to T5 anyway.

The Axe of Blind Fury is probably better in this instance, with its +2 Strength, and 10pts cheaper. You keep the +D6 attacks, but even then, it's still 215pts.

It is not broken. A Daemon Prince with mace, wings and armour is 260-265 pts (depending on whitch god it follows) before you bye mastery levels. That is a good chunk of a normal size army in a 5T 4W 3+/5+ save close combat monster who can stab himself in the eye(with a mace none the less).

 Ovion wrote:
You say 'that's so broken', but really, you're paying 45pts to add D6 attacks and the RFG effect to its attacks.

It's 225pts for a Daemon Prince with a Mark, Power Armour and the Black Mace. 265 with Wings if you want those.

You're paying 45pts to do... what? Remove a few models extra here and there and gain +D6 attacks?
The prince is already hitting with Str6, AP2 (instant Deathing T3) and can Smash to instant death anything up to T5 anyway.

The Axe of Blind Fury is probably better in this instance, with its +2 Strength, and 10pts cheaper. You keep the +D6 attacks, but even then, it's still 215pts.

If you pay the axe that means you got a khorne daemon that has FC which is useless since it is str 10 already with the smash attacks and Str 7 is a mediocre str anyway. Insteas for those extra 10 points you can make it a prince of nurgle, loose only 1 attack on the charge but gain the bonus T test thingie and shroud. Shroud is huge, specially if you paid wings, you get a 3+ cover save while flying, that is worth the 10 points easily

 Lord Yayula wrote:
If you pay the axe that means you got a khorne daemon that has FC which is useless since it is str 10 already with the smash attacks and Str 7 is a mediocre str anyway. Insteas for those extra 10 points you can make it a prince of nurgle, loose only 1 attack on the charge but gain the bonus T test thingie and shroud. Shroud is huge, specially if you paid wings, you get a 3+ cover save while flying, that is worth the 10 points easily

A daemon of nurgle DP doesn't get +1T though.

 Minx wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
If you pay the axe that means you got a khorne daemon that has FC which is useless since it is str 10 already with the smash attacks and Str 7 is a mediocre str anyway. Insteas for those extra 10 points you can make it a prince of nurgle, loose only 1 attack on the charge but gain the bonus T test thingie and shroud. Shroud is huge, specially if you paid wings, you get a 3+ cover save while flying, that is worth the 10 points easily

A daemon of nurgle DP doesn't get +1T though.

Uh?, what does +1T has to do with anything?

Fair enough - I'm not entirely familiar with Daemon Princes, as they require a mark and I run a purely undivided army. (Fabius Bile as my lead), so I'll see your advice and accept it

But my initial point was - yes it's reasonably brutal, yes it's killy as hell, but it pays for it, so it's not broken or OTT at the end of the day.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Minx wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
If you pay the axe that means you got a khorne daemon that has FC which is useless since it is str 10 already with the smash attacks and Str 7 is a mediocre str anyway. Insteas for those extra 10 points you can make it a prince of nurgle, loose only 1 attack on the charge but gain the bonus T test thingie and shroud. Shroud is huge, specially if you paid wings, you get a 3+ cover save while flying, that is worth the 10 points easily

A daemon of nurgle DP doesn't get +1T though.

Uh?, what does +1T has to do with anything?

Must have misunderstood your "bonus T test thingie" (and seen too many posts where a dp gets +1T). My apologies.