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With the release of the CSM codex, and the general lack of variability among the various legions, I've been rather upset. Yes, you can make a "fluffy" army, and it will look pretty, but it won't play any different than any other CSM army. You can make the argument that with the addition of allies, it's possible to make a vast majority of the legions "work", but lets face facts for a minute. Iron Warriors still don't get special access to artillery or siege weapons, Night Lords aren't going to be fielding insane amount of raptors or warp talons, etc. The rule's just aren't there, plain and simple...or are they?

Loyalist Marine's get, what, like 6 different codex's to cover space marines? Space Wolves, Blood Angles, Dark Angles, Space Maines, Black Templars, Grey Knights, and whatever else I may be forgetting. Point being, each one plays differently, has unique rules, but uses (mostly) the same models. So now comes the question:

What's the general consensus and using a codex's rules for a different army? A literal "counts as" army for CSM? As an example, using the Space Wolf codex to run Iron Warriors? Or using the Dark Angels codex as Word Bearers? Or Blood Angels as Night Lords? Not mixing of Codex: CSM and Codex: <insert> by any means, but literally modelling everything in a CSM way.

As an example, let's say I want Iron Warriors (which I do). I decide on using the Space Wolf codex for my rules and units. Long Fangs are simply better Havocs, I get access to all the Land Raider patterns I want, Terminators abound, Techmarines are there (I think?), and I even get my IG artillery as battle brothers. The only unit I won't be able to duplicate that's actually missed is the obliterator and defiler.

Would there be any actual problem doing this? The issue I'm concerned with is that it will create too much confusion for my opponent. My army would look like Iron Warriors, but play like Space Wolves and IG.

Thoughts?

Fine by me, some people my call you a codex hopper and whatnot, ignore them.

It might be kind of confusing, and you need to be REALLY helpful with explaining what's what to people, but there should never be a problem.

If you do anything to make it seem like you're playing the confusion to your advantage, you're going to be despised.

As long as everything is wysiwyg, it's all done well and modeled clearly, and you're clear on what it is, you'll be fine.

The main thing is ensuring it's not easy to get units confused and it looks cool.

I mean, with my Dark Eldar, my Haemonculi are Dryads, my Grotesques, Deyad 'frames' with GS enhancements and my Wracks are Plague Monks.
But everything is clearly WYSIWYG.

This is a tough one.

Personally, I have my dark Angels army, but I'm using the vanilla codex just because it s more up to date, Everyone I play with is aware that's what I'm doing, so no one has an issue. You know, MEQ, but everything is WYSIwYG.

But Anyone can walk over to the table go. "Oh space marines Vs (whatever)" and understand whats going on and how things should be working.

But like take your first example, using the space wolves dex for iron warriors. People will walk over, go "Oh Chaos Vs (whatever)" and when something in the rules don't make sense they'll be confuse. Sure if your just doing friendly games, it shouldn't be an issue, but I'm pretty sure in a tournament setting they wouldn't allow it, because you would be violating WYSIWYG rather hard.

...we really need an FAQ for threads like this.

If we did, do you think they would be read anyway?

Maybe a mix of some guard into it so you get the artillery as well that IW used to love so much before it was ripped away.

Ralis wrote:
This is a tough one.

Personally, I have my dark Angels army, but I'm using the vanilla codex just because it s more up to date, Everyone I play with is aware that's what I'm doing, so no one has an issue. You know, MEQ, but everything is WYSIwYG.

But Anyone can walk over to the table go. "Oh space marines Vs (whatever)" and understand whats going on and how things should be working.

But like take your first example, using the space wolves dex for iron warriors. People will walk over, go "Oh Chaos Vs (whatever)" and when something in the rules don't make sense they'll be confuse. Sure if your just doing friendly games, it shouldn't be an issue, but I'm pretty sure in a tournament setting they wouldn't allow it, because you would be violating WYSIWYG rather hard.

I think you may be misunderstanding, or taking WYSIWYG to far. As far as I know and have seen played, WYSIWYG is about wargear, and proper model representation. So, a Space Marine in power armor armed with a Boltgun, can be played in any Marine Codex, CSM, C:SM,SW,BT,BA and DA, as long as it is being played as a Marine with Boltgun. Now if you decided to say that your ten man group of all boltgun marines had a sgt with powersword & combi plas, a Plasma gun and a Plasma Cannon, but all had boltguns, that would be breaking WYSIWYG.

It shouldn't be all that hard to explain to be honest, have your list handy and point stuff out, or even better show your Codex when you play. As long as they are armed clearly, IE Plasma Guns are Plasma Guns, Missile Launchers are Missile Launchers your fine.

To be clear, absolutely everything would be WYSIWYG, to a tee. I wouldn't dare ask my opponent to just know that this sword is actually a powerfist, or this bolter is really an autocannon, or these rhino's are actually land raider crusaders.

I guess what it falls into is do you really violate any rules by painting or modelling your army in this way? Does it specifically say something to the effect of "Don't paint your space marines like CSM"?

No, your fine, some people might gripe, but that'll mostly be people on the internet. Enjoy your models the way you want to, and if using the SW book to play Iron Warriors the way you want them played is it, then go for it. I know I am

Aipoch wrote:
To be clear, absolutely everything would be WYSIWYG, to a tee. I wouldn't dare ask my opponent to just know that this sword is actually a powerfist, or this bolter is really an autocannon, or these rhino's are actually land raider crusaders.

I guess what it falls into is do you really violate any rules by painting or modelling your army in this way? Does it specifically say something to the effect of "Don't paint your space marines like CSM"?

If everything is the WYSIWYG then no one can say anything about the legality of your force. How your army is painted or decorated has no bearing on the models and their use. As long as its Power Armor with bolters and such, its all good. There's nothing for your opponent to keep track of. This technically isn't even "count as", it just is painted spikey.

I'm doing a similar thing here. I enjoy using Terminators, but I can't stand the Space Wolves' point costs. I mean, come on, 63 points per model for a hammer/shield? A unit of 10 would run almost 200 points more than running them out of the vanilla marine codex. So I wound up picking up the Dark Angels codex and built the entire army as Space Wolves counts as Dark Angels. The justification is simple enough - both codices actually have a model that gives them a Terminator as a troop (Belial for the Angels, Grimnar for the Wolves), so I just run Logan Grimnar as Belial and a bunch of Space Wolf Terminators in lieu of Dark Angels ones.

As long as you're keeping it strictly to power armor (that is, substituting one marine codex's models for another's rules), I think you're good.

Its your hobby enjoy it your way.

That said if your doing night lords use Shrike from codex space marines he would work so well.

 captain collius wrote:
Its your hobby enjoy it your way.

That said if your doing night lords use Shrike from codex space marines he would work so well.

^ <3

I have often considered making a Chaos army using a loyalist codex or just using whatever codex i like the most rules wise for what i want the army i am spending my time and money on to be. As long as wargear is correct for the codex you want to use it shouldn't matter. For some crazy Iron Warriors action you could even run them as Vanilla and pick up the IA Badab War books for some crazy siege action.

If anyone gives you stick simply say they're a successor chapter to the space wolves that like to stick "large wolf fangs" all over their armor

This may be coming late to the game with a point of order on the original poster's comments, but Space Wolves and Grey Knights operate pretty differently from the regular Marine books and use some pretty different models...

I run Night Lords using the BA codex. I have since it came out. Seeing the new CSM book, I will continue to do so as well.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
This may be coming late to the game with a point of order on the original poster's comments, but Space Wolves and Grey Knights operate pretty differently from the regular Marine books and use some pretty different models...

Except for Grey Knights, a marine is pretty much universal. It has power armor and a boltgun across all the codexes. The aesthetics on the armor don't matter at all for WYSIWYG.

A guy on The Tyranid Hive uses an entire army of Skaven-as-Tyranind with no problems. *shrug* Up to the people you play with.

People have been playing marines of irrelevant color since they started having different rules.

As long as everything is WYSIWYG (which you appear to be doing), there should be no issue as long as you are clear on what everything is.

Let me speak from experience.

I run a Raven Guard painted army from the Blood Angels codex, as I simply felt it allowed me to run fluffier lists while still giving me a chance to compete on the table.

Never has one person had a problem, I occasionally have to explain that my marines in black armour aren't Death Company, but the marines I've painted in white armour (to represent marines who have decided to seek death in combat before their unstable geneseed causes them to devolve into monsters) are. Once that's clear everything else is straightforward. I do adhere strictly to wysiwyg as I think that's only fair, doubly so when you're messing with paint schemes.

In fact I have inspired someone else to build a list they've wanted to do for a long time using the same idea, so I can say the only effect my army has had on people has been positive.

Good on you imo, no problem with what you're suggesting. I'd be fine with a completely third party army so long as it was wysiwyg, looks good and isnt done for power reasons. ie. eisenkern valkir as marines, or stormtroopers as guard. Or both!

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
This may be coming late to the game with a point of order on the original poster's comments, but Space Wolves and Grey Knights operate pretty differently from the regular Marine books and use some pretty different models...

Except for Grey Knights, a marine is pretty much universal. It has power armor and a boltgun across all the codexes. The aesthetics on the armor don't matter at all for WYSIWYG.

A Marine is a Marine is a Marine, hrm? Not quite, it turns out. Let's enumerate the differences between the various 'Space Marine' books:

Codex: Space Marines: A versatile list, composed of a mixture of units that can't do anything as well as specialized lists but can hold its own in every area. Jack of all trades, master of none. Competitive lists make heavy use of bikes/Land Speeders.

Codex: Blood Angels: Much more heavily CC-weighted than Codex: Space Marines, but functionally similar. Competitive lists make heavy use of Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Death Company.

Codex: Black Templars: An oddity, they're a little worse than the current Space Marine Codex, but have easy access to Land Raiders and pistol/CCW soldiers. Competitive lists don't exist but if they did they would spam Land Raider Crusaders.

Codex: Dark Angels: Would be going the way of the Black Templars except for redeeming factors in the shape of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing. Competitive lists make heavy use of Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Bikes/Land Speeders.

Codex: Space Wolves: Much more close-combat-focused than ordinary Space Marines, their advantages lie in access to a startling density of powerful close-ranged weapons stuck in Drop Pods.

Codex: Grey Knights: Very powerful short-ranged units, but also tending to be fragile due to small model count. There are many ways to build a competitive list, but they all rely on either using transports or Deep Strike to get your units into the fray.

So yes, a Marine is a Marine is a Marine and they tend to use very similar models, but the rules and playstyle vary widely between the six different 'Marine' Codexes.

What he was saying is the models are WYSIWYG pretty much across the board.

An Ultramarine Devastator squad with 4 Missile Launchers and a Squad Leader can use the same models as a Long fang pack, or a Blood Angels Devastator squad as long as they are equipped with with 4 Missile Launchers and a Squad Leader.

So Except for Grey Knights, a marine is pretty much universal. A Marine with a Missile Launcher is a Marine with a Missile launcher Be it a Long fang, or an Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Dark Angel or Black Templar. They use the same wargear, so the phys rep does not matter.

Just refer to your units by what they represent. Don't point at Havoc models and call them Havocs. Always refer to them as Long Fangs or whatever.

And make it clear to the opponent that he's free to ask what any specific unit is before he makes any of his moves and you'd be glad to explain.

Should have zero problems. I don't mind taking a few extra seconds to double-check what the squad is that I'm charging if it makes my opponent happier playing them as Space Wolves instead of Chaos.

Glad to see most people are reasonable here.

I'm building a Night Lords army. I can see it expanding to use BA rules (if I buy a lot of the lovely raptor models) or possibly Vanilla SM for Shrike and Korvydae.

I don't think anyone will have a problem if I use a 10 man Night Lord Raptors unit with two melta guns to represent a 10 man assault marine unit with two melta guns...

So obviously, I think it's fine. It's your models, your money, and your time. Have fun.

Not sure I understand why Space Wolves would represent Iron Warriors better.

That being said, I have no problem with someone running counts as like this. If they were clearly doing it to use 'the best codex' then I'd probably not keep playing them, as we're not going to have fun, but if it's just to get closer to the fluff of the army as they see it then it'd be mean spirited to refuse.