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2012/11/01 02:25:49
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora (Completed)
I've been contemplating playing the new Chaos Space Marines and in particular, Nurgle Space Marines. I've already got a small force of Chaos Space Marines and a large Chaos Daemons army. It wouldn't take too much more for me to build a CSM army. Well, I would have to get a lot of cultists....
Now the early buzz is that an Epidemius-Typhus Chaos Space Marines-Daemons build may well be one of the new codices' stronger, if not the strongest build. This got me curious, so I decided to set up a test game against my own tyranids - Hive Fleet Pandora. I think this army will be a good test for the new Nurgle Chaos army.
Now, a few thoughts about the Epidemius-CSM build. It is potentially a very strong army build. However, it is not a truly balanced build so will be susceptible to certain matchups. It will do much better against other foot lists but will have problems against fully-meched and/or flyer armies. I do not look at this army as an ultra-competitive tournament-winning build. Rather, I think it is a strong build that could be fun as heck to play as well (well, maybe not so much against certain opponents). But a word of warning, DO NOT use this list in a casual game against a casual opponent. In the end, you may get a frustrated opponent who may leave with a bad experience. So if you do run this list, I would recommend you let your opponent know just how strong it potentially is.
For my tyranid list, I am making a few tweaks and trying out a couple of new things. Mainly, I am swapping out the zoanthropes for the Doom in a spore. I am also giving each tervigon another psychic power and dropping Old Adversary on my flyrant.
20x Cultists
20x Zombie Cultists
25x Cultists - Autoguns, Mark of Nurgle
25x Cultists - Autoguns, Mark of Nurgle
25x Cultists - Autoguns, Mark of Nurgle
10x Plaguebearers
8x Havocs - 4x Missile Launchers, Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
DISCLAIMER: There will be a lot of proxying in this game. If you are really sensitive to battle reports with a lot of count-as models, then you may want to skip this battle. But if you want to find just how hardcore the new Chaos Space Marines can be, then definitely stick around.
So what do you guys think? Is the Epidemius-Chaos Marine a good build and how do you think it will fare against my nids? Report will probably be out by Friday.
Chaos Space Marines: This is how an Epidemius-Typhus list works. Assuming Epidemius comes in, there are 2 ways to get the Tally up. The first is to shoot down the tyranid gribblies - gargoyles and termagants. Autocannons will focus on biovores and hive guards if possible. If not, then the Tyranid Monstrous Creatures (TMC's). And the oblits will focus on the big guys. If you start killing the small guys, the Tally will go up quite fast.
The second way to get the Tally up, and this is the cheesy way to do it, is to assault your own quad-gun. Typhus should be attached to the unmarked cultists. They then assault the quad-guns and pack it in as nice and tight as they can. Then instead of attacking, Typhus uses his Destroyer Hive special ability, which will kill both friends and foes. This is almost guaranteed to get your Tally up very quickly. As a matter of fact, if you combine the 2, you should be able to kill 20+ models in just 1 turn.
Even the biovore blasts shouldn't be able to stop them if played properly. The most the biovores can do is wipe out the unmarked cultists, and if they spread out and Typhus tanks some of the biovore wounds, the cultists may even survive. But in the case that they do get wiped out, you need to deploy you marked/zombie cultists nearby for Plan B - assaulting the quad-gun along with Typhus.
By the ways, there is a slight controversy on whether Chaos Space Marines get Noxious Touch via the Tally. By pure RAW, the answer would be yes, but only models who are daemons can actually use it. However, I believe the RAI (rules-as-intended) is that even non-daemon Nurgle followers would be able to use it. Why? Because it was FAQ'd that both the shooting and close combat attacks of the followers benefit from the Tally (in regards to ignoring armor saves). This was obviously meant to apply to CSM as nurgle daemons (with the exception of Kugath) have no shooting attack. In the absence of a FAQ, in this game, I will play it such that nurgle CSM can benefit from Noxious Touch. For those who disagree, consider it a houserule. That means once the tally hits 20, both the close combat attacks, boltguns and autoguns of all Nurgle units are wounding on 2+ and ignore armor saves.
Thus, the strategy of Chaos is try to max out the Tally as quickly as possible and then....profit!
Tyranids: Tyranid strategy will be to either 1) kill Typhus first to prevent him from using his Destroyer (tough) or 2) kill off all the cultists nearby (tough) or 3) kill off Epidemius when he comes in (tough) or 4) kill the quad-gun (less tough). If chaos can get the Tally up to 20+ and keep Epidemius alive, I have a bad feeling for my nids. Biovores will focus mainly on infantry. Actually so will hive guards and flyrant. I'd probably deal with the havocs before the oblits. The oblits are just too damn tough to kill with normal firepower. They need to be smashed by monstrous creatures. However, target #1 would be Epidemius. If he goes down, so will all the special buffs from his Tally.
Otherwise, tyranid strategy would be to advance, shoot and assault. Termagants will swarm objectives. You know, the typical bug strategy.
First of all, the psychic powers in this game. For tyranids, it's all Biomancy.
Swarmlord: Endurance, Life Leech, Warp Speed, Hemorrhage
Flyrant: Iron Arm, Warp Speed
Doom: Enfeeble
Tervigon #1: Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Enfeeble
Tervigon #2: Enfeeble, Life Leech, Hemorrhage
Typhus (proxied using Abaddon): Gift of Contagion, Plague Wind
And for the Warlord traits:
Swarmlord: Legendary Fighter (+1VP for character slain in a challenge)
Typhus: Something useless
Map of the terrain.
All 4 objectives. If you look closely, you can see a turtle in water.
Chaos sets up their Aegis Defense Line. How we normally play here is we setup all terrain first and fortifications later. Just a houserule here as I think setting up fortications before terrain placement is somewhat stupid.
Tyranid deployment. I believe everything is deplored except the Doom of Ma'lantai, who is in reserves.
Another perspective of tyranid deployment.
Chaos deployment on the right (from the perspective of the tyranids).
Proxies used:
Orks - Cultists with Mark of Nurgle
Guardsmen in black carapace - Unmarked Cultists
Guardsmen in green - Zombies
Gargoyles form a screen. Wasn't a very wise move, but I was trying to give cover to the big guys.
Tyranid advancement, from the perspective of Chaos.
Nids focus on the cultists with biovores and the flyrant. When the dust clears, nids have put 2W on Typhus and killed 12 cultists from his unit (it would have been more had Typhus not tanked some of the wounds) and another 5 from the zombies.
1 biovore blast also manages to kill off the havoc sergeant.
Finally hive guards manage to put only 1W on the quad-gun.
Chaos 1
Spoiler:
I've got 2 choices to make here. I can either play it safe and deepstrike Epidemius into the Chaos deployment zone, hopefully out of range of the tyranid guns, or I can play him aggressively and deepstrike him into tyranid territory? Why would I want to do this?
1. To split up the tyranid army. Tyranid synergy is greatest when they are together. They are also most dangerous when they function as a cohesive force. Splitting them up will help to dilute the army's power and inter-dependencies.
2. If chaos plays it safe (by deepstriking into their own backyard), then they are at a disadvantage for the game. Why? Because tyranids will be advancing while chaos will be defending. They don't have any fast units that can reach the tyranid home objectives. Thus, tyranids will own the objectives while chaos will be playing not to lose their objectives. In short, tyranids will have the Positional Superiority.
3. Linebreaker bonus point.
Now what's the downside? Obviously, Epidemius and his unit is at risk.
I decide to play aggressively. I am hoping the resiliency of Nurgle plaguebearers with FNP will survive.
And if this strategy fails, then I can just use the excuse that this is my very first time playing with Chaos marines in a regular game ever.
Chaos movement to the left.
Notice how everyone is getting really nice and cozy with Typhus.
And movement to the right.
Just shooting by all those autoguns, havocs and left obliterators (using assault cannons) is enough to kill 16 gargoyles!
The right obliterators put 3W on the right tervigon. (They could not see the 2 remaining gargoyles.)
Typhus' unit then assault the quad-gun (they did not shoot this turn).
Typhus then uses his Destroyer Hive, which is a S4 AP2 large blast centered around him that hits both friend and foe.
He kills another 8 cultists - 5 from his unit and 3 zombies!!!
So already, chaos has maxed their Tally at 24 kills (only need 20 kills to max out the Tally). Now at the beginning of their next turn, all Nurgle attacks, both shooting and assault, will ignore all armour saves. Also, Nurgle close-combat attacks will wound on a 2+ (remember, I house-ruled that Noxious Touch given by the Tally will work on all Nurgle units) and Typhus, Epidemius and the plaguebearers will have 3+ FNP.
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2. Tyranids cast all their psychic powers.
Here goes nothing. Both tervigons cast Enfeeble on the plaguebearers, reducting them to T3.
Left tervigon spawns 10 gants (rolling doubles in the process) who then go after the plaguebearers. Actually, almost every tyranid unit will be gunning for the plaguebearers.
Swarmy goes and hides behind the tower. BTW, he casts Endurance on the wounded tervigon.
Right tervigon spawns 8 gants. Flyrant glides 12" back in order to deal with the plaguebearers. Tervigon then goes to screen him out and provide cover.
Shooting is devastating. Both biovore barrages land directly on-target. Flyrant devourers are ignoring the FNP from the T3 plaguebearers. Gants and hive guards also focus on them. When all is said and done, the entire unit, including Epidemius, is wiped out.
Tervigon attempts to charge the cultists but fails on snake-eyes.
Chaos 2
Spoiler:
Chaos advance on the left.
And on the right.
Shooting by the right cultists only kill 2 termagants.
I believe that the oblits take off 2W from the flyrant.
Shooting against the right tervigon puts another 2W on him.
Typhus and zombies then assault the closest termagants....
....and wipe them out, only losing 3 zombies in the process.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Doom comes in.
Tyranid movement. Swarmy gets ready to cut down some cultists.
Flyrant swoops.
Biovores shoot down 5 cultists.
Doom kills 2 oblits and put 1W on the 3rd. Flyrant shoots down 5 havocs. The combination of the Doom and biovores kill off 13 cultists.
Cluster spines from the tervigon lands directly on the Enfeebled cultists, killing 7.
Havocs then fail morale and huff it.
Finally, both the Swarmlord and a tervigon with Endurance make their assaults. The tyrant guard actually dies to Overwatch.
Swarmy sweeps his target. The tervigon kills 2 and they stay locked in combat.
Chaos 3
Spoiler:
Chaos goes for broke.
Typhus splits off from his unit to go after the tervigon.
Oblits get into plasma rapid-fire range of the Swarmlord.
They only manage to take off 2W from Swarmy.
The oblit and 3 cultists dies to the Doom's Spirit Leech.
Finally, both Typhus and the zombies fail to make their assaults with 3" charges.
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
Oblits get Enfeebled. I believe Swarmy eats 1W to Overwatch.
Tervigon goes after Typhus. Flyrant goes after the zombies. Gants swarm the objectives.
Hive guards shoot down some troops on an objective.
Doom kills 3 more guys. However, the cultists continue to pass morale.
Tervigon charges in, going into smash mode.
Swarmy assaults the oblits.
Cultists finally manage to finish off the tervigon. Only 1 termagant dies in the ensuing explosion.
Swarmy easily deals with the oblits.
Typhus rolls a for his daemon weapon and fails to hurt the tervigon. The tervigon then successfully smashes Typhus 3 times. He makes all 3 saves for a tie combat.
Chaos 4
Spoiler:
Cultists manage to finally bring down the Swarmlord.
Typhus wounds the tervigon but fails his force activation due to Shadows. The tervigon then smashes him into pulp.
Tyranid victory. Your last game showed that gants will outdo cultists in CC, a single enfeeble + charge will deny FnP and wreck them. I think Tyranids can hold two and then at least contest one... The Flyrants seems key here for taking down Epi, as he has the manuevrability to get around and jump him.
2012/11/01 03:51:46
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
I'm assuming this will be using the assault the quad gun slaughter your own cultists trick. Does killing Epi remove the army wide benefits?
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2012/11/01 03:53:27
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
Eldarain wrote: I'm assuming this will be using the assault the quad gun slaughter your own cultists trick. Does killing Epi remove the army wide benefits?
Eldarain wrote: I'm assuming this will be using the assault the quad gun slaughter your own cultists trick. Does killing Epi remove the army wide benefits?
Yes, and yes.
Sounds like it will come down to whether the Nids can Nom Epi or not.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2012/11/01 04:10:25
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
I think this is a very strong army IF everything goes well. However, if Epidemius does not deploy in the first wave or if your opponent goes first and destroys your quad-gun or many of your sacrificial Cultists before you can use the ability, you will be in trouble. Flyer lists are also a big problem. Against flyer lists it might actually be better not to use the quad-gun to do the trick but instead to fire it at the enemy.
That said this is a very powerful army if things work correctly and you have a good matchup.
One important thing in this game will be seeing who goes first and whether you can get Epidemius in quickly. Six Biovores offer a ton of anti-infantry firepower and could really do some damage to your Cultists-- once they get their 3+ FNP up, this will largely be mitigated, but until then Biovores will be highly lethal.
2012/11/01 04:24:29
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
Kingsley wrote: I think this is a very strong army IF everything goes well. However, if Epidemius does not deploy in the first wave or if your opponent goes first and destroys your quad-gun or many of your sacrificial Cultists before you can use the ability, you will be in trouble. Flyer lists are also a big problem. Against flyer lists it might actually be better not to use the quad-gun to do the trick but instead to fire it at the enemy.
That said this is a very powerful army if things work correctly and you have a good matchup.
One important thing in this game will be seeing who goes first and whether you can get Epidemius in quickly. Six Biovores offer a ton of anti-infantry firepower and could really do some damage to your Cultists-- once they get their 3+ FNP up, this will largely be mitigated, but until then Biovores will be highly lethal.
Agreed. It needs a number of things to go its way, but when that happens, it will kill things.
Epi+plaguebearers automatically come in on Turn 1 because there is only 1 daemon unit.
Unfortunately, no FNP units besides the plaguebearers. Cultists with MoN don't have FNP and the zombies with FNP don't have MoN. Go figure.
It's a gimmick list, I personally can see warning an opponent of the trick but I wouldn't consider it a cheesy army by any means. It relies on too many tings going correct as well as the fact it has a hard counter against mech. That said I am super excited to see this one as I have only seen theory on this build until now.
As others have suggested, first turn is pivotal in this game for chaos. If his biovores destroy the unmarked cultists first turn this could be a short one.
At the same time if the gimmick goes off smoothly then we will see army wide targets in the nids. I personally feel that the doom could shatter this list alone if he gets iron arm though, not much to stop him then lol.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/01 04:33:13
In all the zombie spam lists (especially the ones with spawn) csm players seem to have been really over eager moving out straight away- your HS should be able to get the tally rolling. I have a feeling with your quad gun + HS youll be able to mostly encourage most armies to come to you...
Keep the zombies/cultists in cover at the start- possibly even in reserve? 4+ and fnp is pretty reliable with 20+ boddies.
Looking forward to it.
2012/11/01 08:36:16
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
Epi+plaguebearers automatically come in on Turn 1 because there is only 1 daemon unit.
I've heard this statement from various sources, why is this again? I dont see how only having 1 unit permits you to ignore deamonic assault. Has there been a ymdc topic about it? Dont want to derail your batrep JY2.
I'm gonna say tyranids win, mostly because I play tyranids, also because I dont like how this (or variants of this) chaos list is all I keep seeing getting play currently.
2013 Nova Open Tournament Champ- 2014 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/13th overall 2014 NOVA Open Second to One 2015 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/10th overall
jy2 wrote: Epi+plaguebearers automatically come in on Turn 1 because there is only 1 daemon unit.
Unfortunately, no FNP units besides the plaguebearers. Cultists with MoN don't have FNP and the zombies with FNP don't have MoN. Go figure.
I guess that just goes to show my unfamiliarity with Codex: Daemons-- I thought Epidemius's Tally gave everyone with the Mark 3+ FNP, regardless of whether they already had FNP or not. On the other hand, I also thought he would only deploy on a 3+. With those differences taken into account, the list seems as if it has less raw power-- it only becomes super killy with the tally, not super killy AND super tough-- but also significantly more reliability, since there isn't a preferred wave to worry about.
2012/11/01 12:15:52
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
thanatos67 wrote: I've heard this statement from various sources, why is this again? I dont see how only having 1 unit permits you to ignore deamonic assault. Has there been a ymdc topic about it? Dont want to derail your batrep JY2.
You're not ignoring Demonic Assault, half of your units go in reserve, and half deep strike. If you have an odd number of units you choose which wave the remaining unit goes in (although with 6th it could be that it auto goes in the first wave, I haven't checked the FAQ), here, that unit is going in the first wave.
Here I'm going to say that Chaos should win, I think that here they'll be able to get their tally up pretty quickly but overall I'm not a fan of the build itself, I just think that this is a good match up for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/01 12:36:10
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2012/11/01 13:07:00
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
Epi+plaguebearers automatically come in on Turn 1 because there is only 1 daemon unit.
I've heard this statement from various sources, why is this again? I dont see how only having 1 unit permits you to ignore deamonic assault. Has there been a ymdc topic about it? Dont want to derail your batrep JY2.
I'm gonna say tyranids win, mostly because I play tyranids, also because I dont like how this (or variants of this) chaos list is all I keep seeing getting play currently.
Daemonic assault, take the number of units in your list round up. I'm not seeing anywhere that if it's 1/0 that it automatically comes in Turn 1 though. It's not the same as Drop pods, as you have to roll a Die to get preferred on a 1-2 you get the shaft.
"If you want a hobby that doesn't cost anything go catch butterflies." swordbrotherjim
If chaos manages to get the tally up, and take out the zoeys quickly, they'll have a chance - but really, the fact that the majority of the army misses out on some or all of the benefits of the tally (only epidemius, typhus and the plaguebearers get the works) means their pony's only trick isn't really all that useful. If they had a bigger unit of plaguebearers, maybe some plaguemarines to take advantage of the tally, they'd have a better chance but most of those cultists will still die in droves, even if they are wounding on a 2+ in CC after 10 gants or gargoyles go down.
Noxious touch against the TMC's will be interesting to see though, looking forward to this one...
Run a whole lot of wfrp and other rpg's, play The Woods and Kill Team, gather and look mournfully at imperial guard knowing I'll never finish enough to use them on the tabletop
2012/11/01 13:38:53
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
Ithani wrote: In all the zombie spam lists (especially the ones with spawn) csm players seem to have been really over eager moving out straight away- your HS should be able to get the tally rolling. I have a feeling with your quad gun + HS youll be able to mostly encourage most armies to come to you...
Keep the zombies/cultists in cover at the start- possibly even in reserve? 4+ and fnp is pretty reliable with 20+ boddies.
Looking forward to it.
They've got the Aegis Defense Line to give them 4+ cover to all tyranid shooting except the biovores.
I'm not going to leave them in reserves because they are just so slow. If the enemy wants to shoot at them, have at it. They're only 4-6pt models so its no biggie.
Daemonic assault, take the number of units in your list round up. I'm not seeing anywhere that if it's 1/0 that it automatically comes in Turn 1 though. It's not the same as Drop pods, as you have to roll a Die to get preferred on a 1-2 you get the shaft.
After double-checking the rules, you guys are right. So it seems that there is a chance of Epi not coming in on Turn 1 after all.
Captain Roderick wrote: If chaos manages to get the tally up, and take out the zoeys quickly, they'll have a chance - but really, the fact that the majority of the army misses out on some or all of the benefits of the tally (only epidemius, typhus and the plaguebearers get the works) means their pony's only trick isn't really all that useful. If they had a bigger unit of plaguebearers, maybe some plaguemarines to take advantage of the tally, they'd have a better chance but most of those cultists will still die in droves, even if they are wounding on a 2+ in CC after 10 gants or gargoyles go down.
Noxious touch against the TMC's will be interesting to see though, looking forward to this one...
Correct. Here I am giving up defense (FNP plague marines) for more offense (hordes and hordes of infantry wounding on 2+ and ignoring armor saves). I'm hoping the numbers will make up for the lack of FNP. Sometimes, quantity has a quality of its own.
Rakeeb wrote: Oh, is this built around another kill-your-own-units setup, like using the Plague AOE power on Grots?
Vile. I'd rule that only the opposing players' models count towards the Tally. That is how the ability is intended to be used, after all.
Yup.
The Tally affects everyone, both friendly and foe. The enemy will also benefit and contribute to the Tally if he brought Nurgle units as well. Thus, if you were playing against another Nurgle army, you would count the kills of both armies as long as it comes from a Nurgle unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: It's a gimmick list, I personally can see warning an opponent of the trick but I wouldn't consider it a cheesy army by any means. It relies on too many tings going correct as well as the fact it has a hard counter against mech. That said I am super excited to see this one as I have only seen theory on this build until now.
As others have suggested, first turn is pivotal in this game for chaos. If his biovores destroy the unmarked cultists first turn this could be a short one.
At the same time if the gimmick goes off smoothly then we will see army wide targets in the nids. I personally feel that the doom could shatter this list alone if he gets iron arm though, not much to stop him then lol.
It is gimmicky, but if the gimmick goes off, then its super-nasty against the right opponent.
It doesn't matter if the biovores destroy the unmarked cultists. Then you would just sacrifice the zombies or even the marked cultists. You do whatever needs to be done to get that Tally up. Also, tyranids have a weakness and that is its gribblies. They're pretty easy to drop, even with autoguns. Thus the cultists may not even need to be sacrificed (or sacrificed too much).
Don't count on Iron Arm. It's a 1 in 6 chance for the Doom.
Niiai wrote: Shurly the biovores where a beast in this battle? And also the doom of malanthi. What did you target with the doom? Obliterators or cultists?
Basically, the Doom would usually go where it can affect the most units. However, placing him near the oblits is a good idea as well, though then there is a chance of him getting shot at by meltas/lascannons and then power-fisted to death by the oblits.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/01 14:47:49
I've seen the doom be pretty effective with the telepathy primaris power...hes a pretty impressive wildcard unit that I wouldnt mind taking in my own nid list.
I'm not sold on the new oblits yet. T5 is really good but low LD and not fearless is a huge set back for them IMO.
2013 Nova Open Tournament Champ- 2014 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/13th overall 2014 NOVA Open Second to One 2015 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/10th overall
It's all very interesting but I would not expect the little "trick" to survive into the next Chaos Daemons Codex. It's truly on the edge of what is considered sporting or fun imho. Should be an interesting report though, are you playing against yourself?
EDIT: Did not mean to sound rude, just did not want you to get all those cultists and have the list not work in 6 months. :-)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/01 17:04:18
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2012/11/01 18:32:53
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
No plague marines??? the best unit of the list is not in...
Havocs why not 3 more oblits?
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2012/11/01 19:14:40
Subject: Re:1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
I'm confused why you upgraded the sacrifical unit to have Autoguns. Could've spent those 20 points somewhere else.
I also don't like the large amounts of Cultist units. Multiple large units without Fearless or any trick to boost their morale has never worked for me or... well, anyone. I understand it is for cheap armor-ignoring firepower, but I don't see them staying on the field for very long once the Biovores start firing. And I also wish there were more Biovores.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Valek wrote: No plague marines??? the best unit of the list is not in...
Havocs why not 3 more oblits?
Because Havocs are:
A) Better.
B) Cheaper.
C) All of the above.
Take your pick.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/01 19:17:26
2012/11/01 19:51:19
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
Siphen wrote: Tyranids all the way. Mostly because I don't think the Tally will work. Assuming that Epidemius arrives on turn 1 and doesn't have a bad scatter, the Biovores can still kill the unmarked cultists. Against the zombies or marked cultists, the strength 2 ap- hit will actually have a hard time killing them (3-4 if it hits the entire squad).
More importantly, can Aura of Decay actually hurt the cultists? I believe Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines treat each other as friendly units (battle brothers).
This all seems a little messy, but I'm looking forward to a great report as always. Go Nids!
This list doesn't rely on Aura of Decay, but rather on assaulting its own quad-gun and using Typhus's Destroyer Hive.
2012/11/02 23:48:08
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
Epi's Noxious touch only effects Deamons close combat attacks. So the only benefit Cultist get from the tally is ignoring armour. Plague Marines are needed all the way for combo to be extremely effective.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/02 23:52:37
Waaaaaaaaaaggghhh!!!!!
2012/11/03 00:35:44
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
Waaaaagh wrote: Epi's Noxious touch only effects Deamons close combat attacks. So the only benefit Cultist get from the tally is ignoring armour. Plague Marines are needed all the way for combo to be extremely effective.
Where is this stated?
"All followers of Nurgle have Noxious touch" pg 52 C:CD
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/03 00:40:22
"If you want a hobby that doesn't cost anything go catch butterflies." swordbrotherjim
Waaaaagh wrote: Epi's Noxious touch only effects Deamons close combat attacks. So the only benefit Cultist get from the tally is ignoring armour. Plague Marines are needed all the way for combo to be extremely effective.
Where is this stated?
"All followers of Nurgle have Noxious touch" pg 52 C:CD
I believe the issue is that Noxious Touch is worded such that it only applies to Daemons.
2012/11/03 20:16:26
Subject: 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora
Waaaaagh wrote: Epi's Noxious touch only effects Deamons close combat attacks. So the only benefit Cultist get from the tally is ignoring armour. Plague Marines are needed all the way for combo to be extremely effective.
Where is this stated?
"All followers of Nurgle have Noxious touch" pg 52 C:CD
I believe the issue is that Noxious Touch is worded such that it only applies to Daemons.
Ah so it seems. Unless it's a "Daemon" from C:CSM as well, than it should work out just fine.
"If you want a hobby that doesn't cost anything go catch butterflies." swordbrotherjim
thanatos67 wrote: I've seen the doom be pretty effective with the telepathy primaris power...hes a pretty impressive wildcard unit that I wouldnt mind taking in my own nid list.
I'm not sold on the new oblits yet. T5 is really good but low LD and not fearless is a huge set back for them IMO.
I like the MoN oblits but they are quite pricey. 237-pts for 3 MoN veteran oblits!
BladeWalker wrote: It's all very interesting but I would not expect the little "trick" to survive into the next Chaos Daemons Codex. It's truly on the edge of what is considered sporting or fun imho. Should be an interesting report though, are you playing against yourself?
EDIT: Did not mean to sound rude, just did not want you to get all those cultists and have the list not work in 6 months. :-)
Probably, but since I already have Epidemius in my daemons army, I thought what-the-hey. But even without Epidemius, I think Nurgle marines are still a solid chaos build.
Valek wrote: No plague marines??? the best unit of the list is not in...
Havocs why not 3 more oblits?
Plaguemarines will come in future games. Right now, I am trying out massed cultists. 9 oblits are really expensive. In my configuration, that's 700+ pts!
Besides, in a Epidemius list, havocs become deadly even with just their boltguns.
somerandomdude wrote: I'm confused why you upgraded the sacrifical unit to have Autoguns. Could've spent those 20 points somewhere else.
I also don't like the large amounts of Cultist units. Multiple large units without Fearless or any trick to boost their morale has never worked for me or... well, anyone. I understand it is for cheap armor-ignoring firepower, but I don't see them staying on the field for very long once the Biovores start firing. And I also wish there were more Biovores.
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Valek wrote: No plague marines??? the best unit of the list is not in...
Havocs why not 3 more oblits?
Because Havocs are:
A) Better.
B) Cheaper.
C) All of the above.
Take your pick.
Actually, I made a mistake. I didn't get autoguns for the unmarked cultists. I will go back and change the list. A sacrificial unit that doesn't benefit from the Tally does not deserve any upgrades.
Yeah, non-fearless cultist units have LD problems. This is just an experimentation with them. If I were to build an actual CSM list, I probably wouldn't use them. Only the zombie cultists and possibly 1 unit to attach to my HQ.
My other list ran 9 biovores, but I am now trying to get away from spamming too much. 2 for redundancy is ok.
Waaaaagh wrote: Epi's Noxious touch only effects Deamons close combat attacks. So the only benefit Cultist get from the tally is ignoring armour. Plague Marines are needed all the way for combo to be extremely effective.
For this game, I played it that Noxious Touch do benefit the non-daemons mainly because I am playing RAI. However, I will probably play it as they don't benefit in the future. It is a little too strong for them to get both wounding on 2's and ignoring armour saves.
And in a "real" CSM list, I'd probably run some plague marines.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/11/04 04:26:39
for his daemon weapon and fails to hurt the tervigon. The tervigon then successfully smashes Typhus 3 times. He makes all 3 saves for a tie combat.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7K Points of Black Legion and Daemons 
5K Points of Grey Knights and Red Hunters 
Waaaaaaaaaaggghhh!!!!! 
