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Voldrak wrote:
Shooty unit guarding an objective, I am a big proponent of 12 man squads of noise marine decked out.

11 noise + champion. 10 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, Siren and Icon of Excess comes to 319 points.

It's expensive for sure, but thats 12 wounds with 3+ and feel no pain. Stick them in cover and they will last even longer.

Anything outside of 24 inches your blastmaster can threaten. once at 24 inches, you have 30 salvo shots, 2 rapid fire shots and the blastmaster shooting. Weight of fire will put a dent into anything.

If it gets assaulted, it still 30 salvo shots, a Doom Siren and a blastmaster using it's assault mode. Thats going to be on average 3-4 dead marines and they will get to hit after you have in assault. Anything that doenst have a 4+ save launching an assault against this can expect the casualties to double on overwatch.

Seems way too expensive for something with only a 24" threat range. Your opponent can just sit out of range and blast you good. The blastmaster is nice, but you pay way too high a tax for it with all those bodies that can't do anything.

Throw 10 cultists on an objective, stick 6 noise marines in a rhino with a doom siren and go doom siren people.

24 inches is not that bad.

Unless your opponent is staying on his table edge and not making a go for the objective, you will be in range of a lot of his stuff on turn 2.

Start on your 12 inch mark, move them forward on turn 1 and run if needed to get in cover.

1 Squad can provide a 48 inch denial bubble in the middle of the table. 2 squads and you'll be dominating the center field.

2-3 other cheap cultist squads for objective grabbing and you're looking decent on troops or under 800 points.

A Squad of Autocannon havoks in your back field to pop open transports going for the center of the table and make the content available to your noise marines is a nice little bonus.

HURON is the answer deck out a squad of noise marines 12 with sonics blastmaster icon siren and a power wepon infiltrate them into cover and you are within 18in first turn Huron will be sat with them so if they are charged thats 30 salvo shots 2 str5 ap4 shots an ap3 flamer and a heavy flamer the noise champ takes the challenge whilst huron wrecks the rest of the squad. at int 5 the rest of the marines are likely to strike first unless your fighting Eldar/Deldar and a 3= save FNP and a cover save will make them very very durable they will also be a massive distraction allowing the rest of your army to advance unmolested if you get the chance to infiltrate 2 of these that would be immensly cruel this could also work with full strength plauge squads and even thousand sons against marines. Furthermore the 20 man CC CM squad with FNP mentioned earlier could also benefit from this a turn 2 charge would be excellent

Voldrak wrote:


Anything outside of 24 inches your blastmaster can threaten.

In a game with premeasuring, who in their right mind would ever walk within 24" of this unit?

Just stay 24.1" away, and that's 319 points of overpriced marines sitting in the woods, wishing they were doing something worthwhile.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
HURON is the answer deck out a squad of noise marines 12 with sonics blastmaster icon siren and a power wepon infiltrate them into cover and you are within 18in first turn Huron will be sat with them so if they are charged thats 30 salvo shots 2 str5 ap4 shots an ap3 flamer and a heavy flamer the noise champ takes the challenge whilst huron wrecks the rest of the squad. at int 5 the rest of the marines are likely to strike first unless your fighting Eldar/Deldar and a 3= save FNP and a cover save will make them very very durable they will also be a massive distraction allowing the rest of your army to advance unmolested if you get the chance to infiltrate 2 of these that would be immensly cruel this could also work with full strength plauge squads and even thousand sons against marines. Furthermore the 20 man CC CM squad with FNP mentioned earlier could also benefit from this a turn 2 charge would be excellent

Note the area I've bolded above; this is a problem with many propositions on this forum lately. The assumption is if it can't be charged it's ok. Problem is, this is only true when being charged is their only weakness. No opponent will charge it, they'll just shoot it to pieces. I've played against Blood Angels enough to know a bunch of Marines with FNP still isn't all that hard a nut to crack when they present themselves to all your guns.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Voldrak wrote:


Anything outside of 24 inches your blastmaster can threaten.

In a game with premeasuring, who in their right mind would ever walk within 24" of this unit?

Just stay 24.1" away, and that's 319 points of overpriced marines sitting in the woods, wishing they were doing something worthwhile.

Then you've just handed me the objective and possibly the game

Obviously there are counters to a unit like this to remove it from the objective, and to those counters I could provide counters, but that is not the point of this post.
The point was to demonstrate that this can be a solid unit to guard an objective and help secure you the objective in question and if you're unwilling to get a troop choice within it's circle of control, then it's done it's job.

Voldrak wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Voldrak wrote:


Anything outside of 24 inches your blastmaster can threaten.

In a game with premeasuring, who in their right mind would ever walk within 24" of this unit?

Just stay 24.1" away, and that's 319 points of overpriced marines sitting in the woods, wishing they were doing something worthwhile.

Then you've just handed me the objective and possibly the game

Obviously there are counters to a unit like this to remove it from the objective, and to those counters I could provide counters, but that is not the point of this post.
The point was to demonstrate that this can be a solid unit to guard an objective and help secure you the objective in question and if you're unwilling to get a troop choice within it's circle of control, then it's done it's job.

exactly these guys have a big area of control and any troops choice apart from MEQ is going to be torn apart well before they are even contesting the objective
also it will take alot of high str high ap wepons to dislodge this unit and if the enemy is focusing his high str loq Ap wepons at a single troops choice in cover then that leaves the rest of my army free and unmolested

Voldrak wrote:
Shooty unit guarding an objective, I am a big proponent of 12 man squads of noise marine decked out.

11 noise + champion. 10 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, Siren and Icon of Excess comes to 319 points.

It's expensive for sure, but thats 12 wounds with 3+ and feel no pain. Stick them in cover and they will last even longer.

Anything outside of 24 inches your blastmaster can threaten. once at 24 inches, you have 30 salvo shots, 2 rapid fire shots and the blastmaster shooting. Weight of fire will put a dent into anything.

If it gets assaulted, it still 30 salvo shots, a Doom Siren and a blastmaster using it's assault mode. Thats going to be on average 3-4 dead marines and they will get to hit after you have in assault. Anything that doenst have a 4+ save launching an assault against this can expect the casualties to double on overwatch.

Sounds really awesome but there couple of issues.

1. How are noise marines getting to an objective? If they footslog their range is reduced to 12", if they are in a rhino they will take atleast 2 turns to get out of the rhino.

2. What if opponent uses tranports to take his troops to assault you? You can only hurt av11 with blastmaster and most av10 can move 24" in a turn.

3. What if somebody tries to assault you? You can't overwatch, you can't assult him first if you shoot with your guns and you hit like a girl.

4. What do you do if you meet something like a demolisher or a battlecannon?

Voldrak wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Voldrak wrote:


Anything outside of 24 inches your blastmaster can threaten.

In a game with premeasuring, who in their right mind would ever walk within 24" of this unit?

Just stay 24.1" away, and that's 319 points of overpriced marines sitting in the woods, wishing they were doing something worthwhile.

Then you've just handed me the objective and possibly the game

Again, same problem as the guy above; you think you are safe if they are out of your range. So you are telling me Imperial Guard or Dark Eldar who stay out of 24" are handing you the game? The simple fact is that the you-shoot-me-I-shoot-back paradigm isn't always there, and it isn't always a tit for tat sort of trade-off.

That's not to mention that problem outside of the Codex altogether that shuts down this supposition; most games have a lot of objectives, and there's usually at least 1 you can completely ignore. The Emperor's Will aside, if the game is coming down to one specific objective, somebody is doing something wrong.

illuknisaa wrote:3. What if somebody tries to assault you? You can't overwatch, you can't assult him first if you shoot with your guns and you hit like a girl.

Where did you get the idea that he can't overwatch?

Crimson-King2120 wrote:

exactly these guys have a big area of control and any troops choice apart from MEQ is going to be torn apart well before they are even contesting the objective
also it will take alot of high str high ap wepons to dislodge this unit and if the enemy is focusing his high str loq Ap wepons at a single troops choice in cover then that leaves the rest of my army free and unmolested

A unit of five flamers ~100ish points would take out that 300 point unit without breaking a sweat, or taking any damage in return. There are a lot of other similar units to flamers that would do the same thing. And you always have to worry about stuff like battle cannons or snipers picking off your expensive blast master.

Kevlar wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:

exactly these guys have a big area of control and any troops choice apart from MEQ is going to be torn apart well before they are even contesting the objective
also it will take alot of high str high ap wepons to dislodge this unit and if the enemy is focusing his high str loq Ap wepons at a single troops choice in cover then that leaves the rest of my army free and unmolested

A unit of five flamers ~100ish points would take out that 300 point unit without breaking a sweat, or taking any damage in return. There are a lot of other similar units to flamers that would do the same thing. And you always have to worry about stuff like battle cannons or snipers picking off your expensive blast master.

Not just the Blastmaster; if they are relying on FNP to stay alive the Icon Bearer is also a prime target for such shots.

You can make the sniping arguement for any unit really. If you are really worried about it so much and are not taking the doom siren, just throw the banner on the unit sergeant(especially if you are building the unit around shooting instead of assault.

Now they need to roll a 6 to hit, then have to wound, then you have to fail your LOS, then have to fail armor and FNP.

Not very good odds.

Also with a 24 inch threat radius and objectives having to only be 12 inches apart, it is quite possible to cover multiple objectives with one unit. I will spend a turn not shooting at max range to move 9ish inches into position. Also on the move it is still a No cover save bolter at 12 inches.

I think that noise marines could slot quite nicely into many lists.

Your flamers are ap3? Plus that unit has to get in range alsi any unit in a transport has to endure a turn of shooting before they can assault. They are the best objective holders in the game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
You can make the sniping arguement for any unit really. If you are really worried about it so much and are not taking the doom siren, just throw the banner on the unit sergeant(especially if you are building the unit around shooting instead of assault.

Now they need to roll a 6 to hit, then have to wound, then you have to fail your LOS, then have to fail armor and FNP.

Not very good odds.

Also with a 24 inch threat radius and objectives having to only be 12 inches apart, it is quite possible to cover multiple objectives with one unit. I will spend a turn not shooting at max range to move 9ish inches into position. Also on the move it is still a No cover save bolter at 12 inches.

I think that noise marines could slot quite nicely into many lists.

if you take Huron or Ahriman just infiltrate into position

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

minigun762 wrote:CSMs are cheaper stock but once you're adding marks, full weapon loadouts and icons, its just better to run cult options.

And there's the trap most people are falling into; why do you need to load them up so much? They work best as a cheap unit with two specials. Double Melta is only 160pts and double Plasma is only 170pts. That's a steal for 10 Marines, and that's where their strength lies.

QFT. This needs to be emphasized, because they are pretty damn cheap and cheerful as basic troops.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Could it be that Dakka has so many threads on the question of cult marines vs. CSM right now because the infantry in the new codex is actually more balanced than ever?

It's like all those threads on IG artillery or Russ tanks: the points cost and capabilities are actually so well-balanced, that--aside from a couple of crap choices--most of the options are actually good and that's why it's hard to decide?

So why not do like Eldar used to do in the days when Eldar were still good and combine the good choices?

Take a couple of big, cheap units of CSM as assault troops and a couple of smaller units of PM as backup and objective holders.

or

Take a couple of smaller, buffed units of CSM to hold objectives and use Noise Marines as assault troops.

QF-Mother ing truth. Mix and match seems to be better than spamming, more enjoyable too!