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I loved my simple CSMs from the previous codex but with the new book, I'm struggling to a role for them.
Plague marines can pull off the special weapon squads better and come stock with a superior ubergrit setup thanks to plague knives. Noise marines can perform the close combat role better thanks to I5, cheaper ubergrit, fearless and siren.

CSMs are cheaper stock but once you're adding marks, full weapon loadouts and icons, its just better to run cult options.

The HQ requirrment is fairly minor considering Nurgle or Slaanesh lords are both strong options.

Well, CSM units (without upgrades like marks and icons) are more cost effective when compared with cult units.
Unless you want a Nurgle themed army, I'd go for CSM.

It depends on what you want to do.
My playstyle lends itself to wanting as many small squads of special weapons that I can get. I like running 5 man PM squads with dual special weapons. I get more deadly firepower per point that way, plus PMs are hard to kill.

Plaguers are just so much better. It is trivial to get them as troops. They also got better in 6th and just 1 pt more expensive.

CSM being cheaper is no longer that much of an advantage, since now you can just grab a bunch of dirt-cheap cultists for scoring units.

So, I don't see myself taking CSMs in any situation. If I want quality, i go PM. if I want quantity, I go cultists, especially since I possess an IG army. Mostly, I want quality, so yes, 5 PMs with 2x plasma in a rhino is the way to go. Get two or three of these, for a nice army core.

CSMs are cheaper but both PM and NM can get by with less then 10 bodies per squad. 7 PM squads are almost identical in points to the equivalent 10 CSM squad and there isn't a situation I can think of where those 3 bodies matter more than T5, FnP and plague knives.

NM are a little more of an apple to oranges comparison but it's very easy to kit them out to dominate other MEQ units, which is a powerful meta choice.

I love noise marines soooooo much dakka


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And plauges are awesome T5 2 plasmas fearless and FNP for a few more points then CSM
Cult troops are badass

minigun762 wrote:CSMs are cheaper stock but once you're adding marks, full weapon loadouts and icons, its just better to run cult options.

And there's the trap most people are falling into; why do you need to load them up so much? They work best as a cheap unit with two specials. Double Melta is only 160pts and double Plasma is only 170pts. That's a steal for 10 Marines, and that's where their strength lies.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

minigun762 wrote:CSMs are cheaper stock but once you're adding marks, full weapon loadouts and icons, its just better to run cult options.

And there's the trap most people are falling into; why do you need to load them up so much? They work best as a cheap unit with two specials. Double Melta is only 160pts and double Plasma is only 170pts. That's a steal for 10 Marines, and that's where their strength lies.

100% agreed with this.

Why stop at 10? Take 20 with BP and CCW and have some real fun. Give them the Mark of Slaanesh, the Icon of Excess, and 2 flamers and then you're got a party.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

minigun762 wrote:CSMs are cheaper stock but once you're adding marks, full weapon loadouts and icons, its just better to run cult options.

And there's the trap most people are falling into; why do you need to load them up so much? They work best as a cheap unit with two specials. Double Melta is only 160pts and double Plasma is only 170pts. That's a steal for 10 Marines, and that's where their strength lies.

And that's the struggle. Those CSMs are LD9 and lack a power weapon for the forced challenges. They are cheap but vulnerable.
Conversely, 5 PM with 2 melta or plasma are cheaper and fearless and have the same # of attacks in assault. Yes its less bodies but each one is tougher.

I'm annoyed by this as I want to like CSMs.

Could it be that Dakka has so many threads on the question of cult marines vs. CSM right now because the infantry in the new codex is actually more balanced than ever?

It's like all those threads on IG artillery or Russ tanks: the points cost and capabilities are actually so well-balanced, that--aside from a couple of crap choices--most of the options are actually good and that's why it's hard to decide?

So why not do like Eldar used to do in the days when Eldar were still good and combine the good choices?

Take a couple of big, cheap units of CSM as assault troops and a couple of smaller units of PM as backup and objective holders.

or

Take a couple of smaller, buffed units of CSM to hold objectives and use Noise Marines as assault troops.

At 13 points I think stock CSM's are great, 14 for the Bolter+Pistol+CCW is also excellent.

Personally I'd just keep em cheap with bolters and run around with big mobs of them. Sure they're not fearless but just stick a Lord, Abbadon, Kharn etc in there with them and they're awesome.

Look at it this way, 60 of them is 780 points.

 More Dakka wrote:
At 13 points I think stock CSM's are great, 14 for the Bolter+Pistol+CCW is also excellent.

Personally I'd just keep em cheap with bolters and run around with big mobs of them. Sure they're not fearless but just stick a Lord, Abbadon, Kharn etc in there with them and they're awesome.

Look at it this way, 60 of them is 780 points.

its 15 points for bolter pistol and CCW which is pushing it

I think it is either:
13 points for bolter shooty guys that try to stay out of combat
14 points for pistol ccw and VotlW = bus for a lord

Playing devil's advocate, the biggest limitation of running PM and NM is you're maxing out your HQ slots in games <2000 assuming you want scoring cult units.

So we can't run a sorcerer or prince.

 minigun762 wrote:
Playing devil's advocate, the biggest limitation of running PM and NM is you're maxing out your HQ slots in games <2000 assuming you want scoring cult units.

So we can't run a sorcerer or prince.

or a warpsmith or dark apostle....

yes those choices arent good but neither is a prince.

Wow are ksons actually that unvalued

I'm having the same turmoil myself at the moment. Allies and cultists and cults give you all kinds of options for your scoring units. I'm really not good enough to tell what sort of mix is best. I know I like the idea of having one or two very hearty scoring units leaving it open to have a bunch of MSU ones about the board, but I'm just not sure how to get an efficient hearty one working besides Fabulous Bill sorts of tricks and you also have to worry about weapon type saturation with these plans.

A squad of 5 plague marines with 2 plasma and an axe costs the same as 10 unupgraded csm with 2 plasma. It certainly makes you think.

The role noise marines play is a funny one too. I'm not ready to make a call yet, but I'd be tempted to say I'd rather have more 13 point BS4 Bolters than go the extra mile to make them special and situationally better. I'm not sure about it though.

I have always liked my noise marines as either scoring vehicles for AP3 flamers or as pseudo assault marines, but this edition has made rhino rushing worse for that. Truth be told, I think they may be the CSM's best candidate for the rhino-rapidfire-rush. They are more expensive than grey hunters, but they are also fearless and not too expensive to give ultra grit. The AP3 template makes them very exciting in close distances and they are pretty decent when charged by most units with their number of attacks, wall of death and high initiative.

Too bad the Slaanesh Chaos Lord choice is somewhat less than interesting. Some people like sticking them with bikes for the FNP. It doesn't sound awful but it's really not an amazing assault unit.

 Lucre wrote:

A squad of 5 plague marines with 2 plasma and an axe costs the same as 10 unupgraded csm with 2 plasma. It certainly makes you think.

It really makes you think about battle and demonlisher cannons, DE posion, meltaguns/plasma and power fists.

 Exergy wrote:

 Lucre wrote:

It really makes you think about battle and demonlisher cannons, DE posion, meltaguns/plasma and power fists.

Agreed but thanks to the changes to FnP, most of the time PM's will still get some kind save.

Battle cannons, Melta, Plasma, Power Fists and any other S8-9 weapon still allows FnP. This means that 2 PM will die for every 3 CSMs, now the CSM price tag varies but if they are equipped with ubergrit and VotLW you're losing the same amount of points per weapon. At this point, the durability is effectively the same. Its not until you get to S10 or force weapons that PM's aren't as good or better than CSMs.

Now PM's do come with I3 which is a disadvantage, though I'd be tempted to say its negated in large part by having blight grenades, but looking at it positively, CSMs would be able to hit first against PM's and possibly kill off a model or two prior to taking hits. Sadly it takes S4 hits to kill off a plague marine in HtH, so its a bit of a struggle.

One thing to note is that CSM actually make the deadliest melee troops in the codex(bar Chosen with Abby, but they are very point inefficient), without needing you to commit to a maked Lord.

That is, a squad of 10 with mark of Slaneesh and Icon of excess, with a champ with a Power Fist and Lightning claw, two meltas. Boltgun are optional, since the squad is better at melee, but nice.

This is an entire squad that goes on I5, and their champ will murder the vast majority of Sargents before they get to retaliate. Then, opponent's turn, he can just switch to the powerfirst to wreck the rest of the squad. I'd played around with this setup and it's deadly.

It also works well as a footslogging bodyguard with more bodies, but due to battlecannons I try to avoid that.

Other than that, I would guess that lists that opt to go for DPs will generally prefer CSMs to cult troops.

DrDuckman wrote:
One thing to note is that CSM actually make the deadliest melee troops in the codex(bar Chosen with Abby, but they are very point inefficient), without needing you to commit to a maked Lord.

That is, a squad of 10 with mark of Slaneesh and Icon of excess, with a champ with a Power Fist and Lightning claw, two meltas. Boltgun are optional, since the squad is better at melee, but nice.

This is an entire squad that goes on I5, and their champ will murder the vast majority of Sargents before they get to retaliate. Then, opponent's turn, he can just switch to the powerfirst to wreck the rest of the squad. I'd played around with this setup and it's deadly.

It also works well as a footslogging bodyguard with more bodies, but due to battlecannons I try to avoid that.

Other than that, I would guess that lists that opt to go for DPs will generally prefer CSMs to cult troops.

How much does that champ cost? Seems too expensive when you factor in precision shots coming his way. L.O.S. on a non-IC isn't very reliable. And 215 (without champ upgrades) points for that non-fearless unit? For 220 points you could just take 10 noise marines w/ icon.

I always thought the strongest way to run CSM would be in their max squads of 20. If you want to run assault then you switch out the boltgun for CC weapon for free and get either two meltas or two flamers. Then you throw in the Icon that gives you fearless. Keeps em relatively cheap, but fearless and quite choppy if the unit gets in with most of their strength intact. You can also keep the bolters, give em plasma guns and then walk them up the board. That's a lot of very accurate bolt shots coming up along with plasma. This group would murder at the double tap range, and overwatch wouldn't be shabby either.

I think that is their benefit. 20 guys with Space Marine stats running up the board are bound to strike fear in some folk. Support them with large units of raptors and terminators and your opponent has to make some difficult choices with target priority.

I don't think CSM should ever take Ubergrit; actually, they shouldn't take any upgrades except Vets, spec weapons, and maybe a PW for the Champ. Their greatest strength is how cheap they are, and taking ubergrit only dilutes that. If you come to the conclusion that your squad needs more equipment, then you upgrade to a cult unit.

I agree with what's been said above.

Squads of 5-6 Plagues for fighting and cultists for scoring is the best way to go in this codex.
I expect I'll run 10 CSM with 2 melta alongside them for a while as I don't have the models, and that seems like a nice balance.

The primary reason to take plagues is their special weapons. But they have so many reasons they're good, it's impossible to compare them fairly.

Cultists are good for standing on back objectives, or just bulking out your force. I'd not run more than 2 squads of 10 though.

Kevlar wrote:

How much does that champ cost? Seems too expensive when you factor in precision shots coming his way. L.O.S. on a non-IC isn't very reliable. And 215 (without champ upgrades) points for that non-fearless unit? For 220 points you could just take 10 noise marines w/ icon.

If you're worried about precision shots...well just stop. You won't see precision shots in a high enough volume to make a marine sweat. Chances are you will only get one precision shot per unit, unless you're running snipers lol. That hit still has to roll to wound, get past LOS! and a save. Best case precision shots gives you a less than 7% chance per shot to kill that champ and thats with plasma and no cover. Barrage weapons best case for singling out a champ is 18.5% if it denies the armor save, is BS 4, and has LoS. Most barrage weapons wont even deny a 3+ armor save and nobody really takes barrage weapons.

Point is sniping a model is a low probability scenario and not worth mentioning as a downside.

 Tarrasq wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

How much does that champ cost? Seems too expensive when you factor in precision shots coming his way. L.O.S. on a non-IC isn't very reliable. And 215 (without champ upgrades) points for that non-fearless unit? For 220 points you could just take 10 noise marines w/ icon.

If you're worried about precision shots...well just stop. You won't see precision shots in a high enough volume to make a marine sweat. Chances are you will only get one precision shot per unit, unless you're running snipers lol. That hit still has to roll to wound, get past LOS! and a save. Best case precision shots gives you a less than 7% chance per shot to kill that champ and thats with plasma and no cover. Barrage weapons best case for singling out a champ is 18.5% if it denies the armor save, is BS 4, and has LoS. Most barrage weapons wont even deny a 3+ armor save and nobody really takes barrage weapons.

Point is sniping a model is a low probability scenario and not worth mentioning as a downside.

Guess you've never fought necrons with lots of lance crypteks and deathmarks.

 Lucre wrote:


Too bad the Slaanesh Chaos Lord choice is somewhat less than interesting. Some people like sticking them with bikes for the FNP. It doesn't sound awful but it's really not an amazing assault unit.

Besides the bike version, I'm also seeing the outflanking Slaanesh lord on a steed as a viable option.

Or you could just take Lucius. He costs about the same as the other options, should be good in duels, and he brings an extra doom siren to the unit.


I'm not getting the people who say that cultists are good at holding objectives. My experience of 6th edition so far is that low Ld units with poor saves are pretty easy to shoot off objectives, especially when minsized.

If you want nurgle go with plague marines

If you want slaanesh go with csm for objective holding, noise marines for assault (no sonic weapons except doom siren).

Don't waste your points on slaanesh lord, sorcerer is better.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

minigun762 wrote:CSMs are cheaper stock but once you're adding marks, full weapon loadouts and icons, its just better to run cult options.

And there's the trap most people are falling into; why do you need to load them up so much? They work best as a cheap unit with two specials. Double Melta is only 160pts and double Plasma is only 170pts. That's a steal for 10 Marines, and that's where their strength lies.

And that's the struggle. Those CSMs are LD9 and lack a power weapon for the forced challenges. They are cheap but vulnerable.
Conversely, 5 PM with 2 melta or plasma are cheaper and fearless and have the same # of attacks in assault. Yes its less bodies but each one is tougher.

I'm annoyed by this as I want to like CSMs.

Trap number 2; worrying about assault. CSM are best as a cheap shooty unit (in a shooty game no less). Why care about how effective they are in assault, when the aim is to keep them out of it? If you want an assault unit, look at Bikers, not Troop choices. As for the above comparison, it takes 102 Bolter shots to kill those Plague Marines, and 90 to kill those Marines. That's not a lot more dedication to kill the Plague Marines, and for each wound taken the Plague Marines lose out a lot more than the Marines. Plus the more important part here; the Marines put out a lot more firepower. Plague Marines are a slightly better unit for bunkering down, but Marines are a bit better at dealing damage.

I would also note that if you are afraid of losing models in a game then 40k might not be the game for you. In the grand scheme of things most units in this game are vulnerable.

Shooty unit guarding an objective, I am a big proponent of 12 man squads of noise marine decked out.

11 noise + champion. 10 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, Siren and Icon of Excess comes to 319 points.

It's expensive for sure, but thats 12 wounds with 3+ and feel no pain. Stick them in cover and they will last even longer.

Anything outside of 24 inches your blastmaster can threaten. once at 24 inches, you have 30 salvo shots, 2 rapid fire shots and the blastmaster shooting. Weight of fire will put a dent into anything.

If it gets assaulted, it still 30 salvo shots, a Doom Siren and a blastmaster using it's assault mode. Thats going to be on average 3-4 dead marines and they will get to hit after you have in assault. Anything that doenst have a 4+ save launching an assault against this can expect the casualties to double on overwatch.