Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"In the grim darkness of the far future... there is only war"

I was reading about tau on warhammer wiki the other day, and noticed they where really nice. Almost too nice. The always try to come up with a diplomatic solution, and they are nice to the their prisioners. They contradict the quote above and treat everyone fairly.

They seem a little to good for the hopeles, dark and evil 41st millenium.

This ain't a troll post by the way, and I'm sorry if I affend anyone.

PS. Sorry bout bad spelling doing this on bus with phone.

On the surface yes. However, the Tau have a dark side.

The Etherial's are essentially mind controlling the Tau using pheremones.

Plus the Tau sterilize the bulk of planetary populations they take over by force, with only those loyal to the Tau Empire exempted.

They're also fascists that offer you a choice, join them peacefully or join them by force. This is exactly the option the Imperium offers to lost human colonies. It has also been hinted that ethereals possess mind control abilities and that is how they can convert individuals to serve the Greater Good.

In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos. They're the arrogant, ignorant upstart race that, out of ignorance, is dividing the Imperium's defensive efforts.

By modern standards, Tau are evil. It's a society with no freedom, and no hope. You'll never advance beyond your caste (determined by your birth) and your chosen occupation (determined by your Ethereal masters).

In any other scifi universe the Tau would be the bad guys. They're an aggressive expansionist empire with a rigid caste system, and the only things that make them "good" by 40k's standards is that they aren't incredibly stupid and self destructive all the time. They use technology efficiently to kill you, they don't bother with superstition about "gods" or "honor" or any of that nonsense as they kill you, and they offer you the chance to submit entirely to their rule before they kill you.

So yeah, I'd say the Tau are pretty much perfect for 40k's token "semi-decent faction".

Peregrine wrote:In any other scifi universe the Tau would be the bad guys. They're an aggressive expansionist empire with a rigid caste system, and the only things that make them "good" by 40k's standards is that they aren't incredibly stupid and self destructive all the time. They use technology efficiently to kill you, they don't bother with superstition about "gods" or "honor" or any of that nonsense as they kill you, and they offer you the chance to submit entirely to their rule before they kill you.

So yeah, I'd say the Tau are pretty much perfect for 40k's token "semi-decent faction".

In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

 GreyHamster wrote:
In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos.

Or, from a certain point of view, the race with the best comprehension of chaos. They aren't blinded by superstition where the most powerful space wizards are declared "gods", they simply plot the most efficient way of killing chaos forever.

 Peregrine wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos.

Or, from a certain point of view, the race with the best comprehension of chaos. They aren't blinded by superstition where the most powerful space wizards are declared "gods", they simply plot the most efficient way of killing chaos forever.

Except its not people claiming to be gods. They ARE gods. Real freakin gods. And they arn't friendly gods.

Peregrine wrote:

GreyHamster wrote:In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos.

Or, from a certain point of view, the race with the best comprehension of chaos. They aren't blinded by superstition where the most powerful space wizards are declared "gods", they simply plot the most efficient way of killing chaos forever.

You can't kill Chaos, unless you somehow lobotomize every being that feels emotion. As long as there's emotion, there's Chaos.

That said, Chaos could be contained using crazy ass technology. And individual Daemons (and Gods probably) can be killed too. But Chaos will always be there, lurking. And if the Tau do manage to get rid of it, they'll always need to be on guard.

 LoneLictor wrote:
In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

Nope.

1) The gods are only "real" in the sense that they're the most powerful beings in the universe at the moment. Advancing technology will put an end to that nonsense eventually.

2) History says that it's all superstition. That whole "pray to the machine god or your tank doesn't work" thing? That's just some idiot ten thousand years ago declaring that the user's manual is a sacred text and the startup checklist is a religious ritual to the machine god. And then of course thousands of years of equally idiotic theocracy pushing things to the point that even the slightest questioning of the sacred dogma or attempt to use real science or engineering is heresy and punished by death. Of course it didn't work that way in the past, when all of Imperial technology was first invented, so it's pretty stupid to argue that the machine god is anything but superstition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except its not people claiming to be gods. They ARE gods. Real freakin gods. And they arn't friendly gods.

No, they're just more powerful than anyone else right now. It remains to be seen whether they will continue to do so once the Tau, free of idiotic superstition about science and engineering, advance to the point that a single gun drone can conquer the Imperium out of sheer boredom.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

Nope.

1) The gods are only "real" in the sense that they're the most powerful beings in the universe at the moment. Advancing technology will put an end to that nonsense eventually.

2) History says that it's all superstition. That whole "pray to the machine god or your tank doesn't work" thing? That's just some idiot ten thousand years ago declaring that the user's manual is a sacred text and the startup checklist is a religious ritual to the machine god. And then of course thousands of years of equally idiotic theocracy pushing things to the point that even the slightest questioning of the sacred dogma or attempt to use real science or engineering is heresy and punished by death. Of course it didn't work that way in the past, when all of Imperial technology was first invented, so it's pretty stupid to argue that the machine god is anything but superstition.

1) I doubt that. Progress usually ends badly in 40k. Look at the Necrons, the Eldar, or Mankind. Progress always ends badly.

2) I'm not talking about the Machine God (which is faaaaake), I'm talking about the goddamn Chaos Gods.

Sorry Peregrine, the Chaos Gods really are Gods.

They exist in a dimension of pure madness. The laws of physics(the basis of Technology) do not apply.

You can seal the Warp away, but you must use things of the warp to do it. Such as creating psychic contructs like the Webway.


The Tau will NEVER be able to do that so long as they remain psychic blunts.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos.

Or, from a certain point of view, the race with the best comprehension of chaos. They aren't blinded by superstition where the most powerful space wizards are declared "gods", they simply plot the most efficient way of killing chaos forever.

Except its not people claiming to be gods. They ARE gods. Real freakin gods. And they arn't friendly gods.

That's one of the dark jokes of 40k, an atheistic movement unifies humanity, only to find there are actual gods and daemons, literally born from mortal minds and negative emotions. Tau don't understand the malign nature of the ancient intelligences of the warp and think that negotiation and control ARE possible. THAT is one of the primary reasons they are dangerous. They think it's possible to coexist with things that want to destroy reality.

 Grey Templar wrote:

You can seal the Warp away, but you must use things of the warp to do it.

Necrons would like to have a word with you.

back to OP. No, I don't believe the Tau are too good for 40k. They're an amusing way for us to see a government that we would normally see as oppressive as a respectable and even a hopeful option under the circumstances of 40k.

Back on topic...
I think Tau are actually one of the darker armies. The whole outward appearance contrasted with their actual actions and motives. They will only let you join if you completely submit to the will of the etherials. If you refuse to join, they will systematically wipe you out and take everything. That coupled with the rumors of mind control and other problems makes the Tau a perfect army for the grimdark universe.
The hand with the honey is often the one with the trap.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

Nope.

1) The gods are only "real" in the sense that they're the most powerful beings in the universe at the moment. Advancing technology will put an end to that nonsense eventually.

2) History says that it's all superstition. That whole "pray to the machine god or your tank doesn't work" thing? That's just some idiot ten thousand years ago declaring that the user's manual is a sacred text and the startup checklist is a religious ritual to the machine god. And then of course thousands of years of equally idiotic theocracy pushing things to the point that even the slightest questioning of the sacred dogma or attempt to use real science or engineering is heresy and punished by death. Of course it didn't work that way in the past, when all of Imperial technology was first invented, so it's pretty stupid to argue that the machine god is anything but superstition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except its not people claiming to be gods. They ARE gods. Real freakin gods. And they arn't friendly gods.

No, they're just more powerful than anyone else right now. It remains to be seen whether they will continue to do so once the Tau, free of idiotic superstition about science and engineering, advance to the point that a single gun drone can conquer the Imperium out of sheer boredom.

You know what, for as much as you bash the tau game wise i couldnt help but laugh at this post! I completely agree, with as "fast" as the tau have discovered new tech it shouldnt be very long before they are the top race in the universe simply on tech alone, and yes they might be commies that give you no choice but they work together!!! unlinke chaos and regular marines and the imperium as a whole along with orks and light/dark eldar who are all fighting each other while trying to fighte everyone else too. The tau have been there, done that and moved past it. Thats what makes me think they will be on top.

The thing that makes the Tau "not fit" in the grimdarkiness of 40k in some peoples minds is that they actually try to acheive their ends in ways other than shooting holes in things.

they will buy, negotiate, propaganda , and coherce someone to do what they need, but always have the option of shooting holes in them, they use the least costly and most effective ( in their opinion) ways first and resort to violence when needed.

No they do not shy away from killing their enemies, nor do they shy away from making allies..what ever works to acheive the mission.

they don't do things like humans or the Imperium does..because they are not humans or the Imperium.

They are a alternate shade of grey in the sometimes way to dark 40k setting, and serve to show off how truly dark the likes of Dark eldar, Chaos truly are.

and they appeal to alot of people, in the same way that alot of 40k factions appeal or dont to each person in this game...if everything is dark evil and genocidal..it kinda waters down the evil.

so yes they fit..thats why they are in it, variety is the spice of life.

Well, the Imperium can buy, negotiate, propaganda, and coherce for what they need, it's just that the shoot it full of holes is a much more alluring option.

And the only one the Dogma of the imperium endorses..kill it with bombs...kill it with fire, exterminatus etc etc, pretty much the modus op for all the races in 40k up until Tau fluff, but the FFG books have broadened it a bit. but meh there is no canon and all is equal.

There is one race in the 40k universe that doesn't want to kill everything in sight. Let's keep this niche for gamers, who don't think that crazy raging mass murderers are the coolest thing on earth.

 Kroothawk wrote:
There is one race in the 40k universe that doesn't want to kill everything in sight. Let's keep this niche for gamers, who don't think that crazy raging mass murderers are the coolest thing on earth.

Ditto, this is my idea on the Tau. They aren't religious zealots/fanatics (Imperials, Chaos, Eldar and Dark Eldar) or things that want to kill everything (Ork, Tyranids, Necrons) The Tau actually want to build up a race.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sorry Peregrine, the Chaos Gods really are Gods.

They exist in a dimension of pure madness. The laws of physics(the basis of Technology) do not apply.

You can seal the Warp away, but you must use things of the warp to do it. Such as creating psychic contructs like the Webway.


The Tau will NEVER be able to do that so long as they remain psychic blunts.

Actually necrons would love a word with you, they were sealing off the Warp with their own tech before.

For all they really know, the Warp is just a different alien dimension, with the beings inhabiting it simply being a different sort of alien born from the emotions of another galaxy, based around the energies and laws of that universe, with most of our knowledge seen through Imperial scholars, biased researchers, and beings with no desire to actually Study it because of some ancient rites and laws forbidding those that do with death, with Chaos marines not giving to much of a damn cept for those who wish to take the warp to improve their lives. (Q'Sal have actually managed to create a far better place through Warp Science and Warp Technology, even as they live almost like Tzeentchian Mages plotting!)

There ARE far more beings in the warp than just the chaos gods, there's entire races such as the Enslavers, the Vampyres, astral Spectres, and some psych race.

Not to mention the warp itself didn't grow till the Old Ones messed around with the warp in their war with the Necrotyr, because it certainly wasn't big, bad, or effective during the period of that war till the Old Ones screwed up.

To put it simply, there is much to know, but yet so much truly unknown.

Necrons don't want to kill everything. Just most things.

The Tau are still fairly new to the galactic scene. Give them a few more millennia and they'll get their own version of the Horus Herresies or some such. Be interesting to see if they would look half as good as the imperium after that.

I think the Necrons veiw the universe as thier own gaming table, even have their own cheat codes, and a lite bright room to do resets.

Necrons the gamer nerds of 40k

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Necrons don't want to kill everything. Just most things.

The Tau are still fairly new to the galactic scene. Give them a few more millennia and they'll get their own version of the Horus Herresies or some such. Be interesting to see if they would look half as good as the imperium after that.

Yeah see, this is the problem most people have with them. There is no great backstory for them, they were monkeys, the Aun (Ethereals) came, and now they are smarter monkeys in space. The closest thing to a controversy is the Farsight enclaves, which don't even have a great background. I think we need a newer and more expanded codex and more people might like them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sorry Peregrine, the Chaos Gods really are Gods.

They exist in a dimension of pure madness. The laws of physics(the basis of Technology) do not apply.

You can seal the Warp away, but you must use things of the warp to do it. Such as creating psychic contructs like the Webway.


The Tau will NEVER be able to do that so long as they remain psychic blunts.

Actually necrons would love a word with you, they were sealing off the Warp with their own tech before.

For all they really know, the Warp is just a different alien dimension, with the beings inhabiting it simply being a different sort of alien born from the emotions of another galaxy, based around the energies and laws of that universe, with most of our knowledge seen through Imperial scholars, biased researchers, and beings with no desire to actually Study it because of some ancient rites and laws forbidding those that do with death, with Chaos marines not giving to much of a damn cept for those who wish to take the warp to improve their lives. (Q'Sal have actually managed to create a far better place through Warp Science and Warp Technology, even as they live almost like Tzeentchian Mages plotting!)

There ARE far more beings in the warp than just the chaos gods, there's entire races such as the Enslavers, the Vampyres, astral Spectres, and some psych race.

Not to mention the warp itself didn't grow till the Old Ones messed around with the warp in their war with the Necrotyr, because it certainly wasn't big, bad, or effective during the period of that war till the Old Ones screwed up.

To put it simply, there is much to know, but yet so much truly unknown.

The warp operates by its own set of rules, much of those akin to "magic" rules such as the law of contagion (i.e. like attracts like), True Names, etc... However in certain cases the warp does interact with reality in what seems a purely technological way such as via warp engines, Gellar fields, and the Necron artifacts and null matrices. Almost all of these involve either punching a breach in reality to the warp or warding against the warp. To actually channel and use the energies of the warp seems to require an active warp presence (i.e. have some level of psychic ability), and that is something the Necrons do not have.

But yes, in a nutshell, the warp is like a separate parallel universe with its own aliens and indigenous inhabitants. However the most significant and dangerous inhabitants are the Chaos gods and their spin-off daemons, and these entities are reliant upon being fed by the energies of the inhabitants of realspace. The gods are just energy beings grown mighty on the vast fodder of human souls and emotions over thousands of years. Starve them of input, and they will weaken or die, just as the Eldar gods did when the Eldar turned to decadence instead of their traditional pantheon.

The more mechanistic or rational way the Tau attempt to view the warp has some similarities to the Necrons' view of the world.

...The Tau are an Orwellian dystopia with the added benefit of being mind-controlled by the powerful elite. The fact that they tell you they're nice and shiny and accepting and willing to let you into their little club just adds to the creepiness.

I'm kind of confused on a lot of issues. People keep describing Tau life as if it's something robotic and scripted. I've never really seen any material describing what Tau are like outside of combat. The codex gives a brief mention of one Tau world where the citizens tend to relax and put more time into their personal hobbies than the rest of the empire.

But morality isn't an aboslute either. In a universe where the "good guys" literally want to murder every other species, mutation, and nonbeliever it's hard to actually gauge where morality fits in. On a galactic scale they're doing what they believe is necessary to maintain order, fight off corruption/heresy, and defend from the alien menace.

I think a lot of issues come from the lack of source material for Tau. I've only heard one mention of what color Tau blood is and other forums argue over whether Tau females have breasts (Nerds argue the important details first). But people can claim any "evil" the Tau have and it will reflect on the IoM.

Strict caste breeding? The Imperium has a huge class system. Born into poverty? Enjoy the stay.

Forced to fight? It's a time of galactic war. Who isn't being trained to defend the home front.

Intolerant of those willing to join? The IoM made plenty of alien races extinct. And this was back before the Emp took the long sit on the Golden Comode, before they became "lost"

Morality has a lot to do with the culture. Tau society is raised to believe that they are all important and that they are doing their part to advance their empire. It's not really brainwashing, it's just enforcing a very positive outlook with positive motivation. Issues on this are like saying that Motivational Speakers are like Hitler because they're trying to get you motivated towards a common goal and therefore bad.

Morally they don't seem bad. The only real source of non-propaganda are hints from the DOW games, which I don't believe are cannon or even highly regarded. Didn't that game also have Khornate Sorcerors?

Are the Tau Naive? No. They aren't trying to reason with Tyranids because they realized they are dicks. Do they mind control races? The only solid mention of this is from the Communion Helm of the Vespid. But again it's not really proof. The Helm could just as easily be a translator for the Vespid, and they really dig the message.

Will the Tau fall from grace? Well the IoM did and the Eldar fell so hard the resulting impact ripped a hole in the universe, killed/broke one of their gods, and then brought the god of rape into existence. How bad could it be for the Tau?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why do people keep stating that ethereals mind control Tau like it's a fact? It's suggested in the book, but it's a GW suggestion. They also suggest the Emperor is fading and could be reborn as a dark god or as a god of order. They suggest that Necrons have a frozen primarch. That something is chasing the Nids.

And that would be one hell of a psychich ability to span across planets. They don't mention how spread out ethereals are, but I'm guessing they can't constantly be around to influence people.

And Farsight's enclave doesn't prove that Tau will stray from Greater Good without Ethereal influence. His story isn't clearly explained and sounds more like a case of a loose cannon cop with nothing to lose.

I think some of the tau fluff is a little too nice nice. Try reading their battlefleet book without rolling your eyes.

Grey Templar wrote:On the surface yes. However, the Tau have a dark side.
The Etherial's are essentially mind controlling the Tau using pheremones.
Plus the Tau sterilize the bulk of planetary populations they take over by force, with only those loyal to the Tau Empire exempted.

Admittedly, that is only so far as some non-GW sources claim, and we all know how very much they may deviate from studio vision.
That's not to say that those individual authors' interpretation is not compatible with what the studio itself has churned out (in fact it may fit in quite well) - I'm just cautioning against taking that as gospel, as so many fans are prone to when talking about fluff.

Personally, I very much prefer the dark side of the Tau simply being lots of propaganda and a rigid caste system. You don't need cliché mind control to create a fascist dictatorship. The real world has sufficient examples for how that works simply by influencing the people via education and media, and I think that's actually somewhat more "elegant" and reasonable, insofar as such terms can be applied to a setting like this.

But yeah, preferences.

Grey Templar wrote:Sorry Peregrine, the Chaos Gods really are Gods.

How would you define "god"?
If you think about it, there's nothing supernatural about the Chaos Gods - they exist because of how the Warp works in conjunction with the feelings of beings, and because of how telepathy works in the setting. It would even be possible to analyze all of that with various formula, such as when a Chaos "God" is created, how much emotion it takes to sustain them, and how it would react to outside stimuli.

Of course, if you just say that a "god" is defined as a very powerful being whose capabilities are utterly alien to normal people, then that is true - in the same way as a rank-and-file Space Marine would be seen as a god by some backwater native who has never seen power armour and plasma guns in his life.