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Yes, free leader and greandaes would have been nice,

FenixZero wrote:
If Tau squads came with leaders normally, and FW came with both gernades (EMP and Photon) I would feel that they would be OK, if a little UP, at 10pts a piece.

Of course, that isn't going to happen. Xenos must pay the usual tax for fielding units.

The other thing about the leader is the markerlight he gets isn't networked. It points out how the codex doesn't have much synergy. I don't understand why the Team leader can't buff his own unit, and really doubt that I'd fire a suit and FW squad at the same target enough to make it worth it.

I still think BS3 for the base unit with no option to upgrade it, i.e. veteran troops, is completely crap. Markerlights are too costly and limited to justify such a shooty army having a low base BS. Infact, I don't even think Markerlights should increase BS. They should provide shooting buffs, like re-rolling 1's and removing cover saves or something. But why is Tau limited to this?

Here's an example. SW are now WS2 and S2. They are a CC heavy army. Don't worry though. If another SW squad from 1 FOC slot (at a boosted price) is in combat they can up the S and WS of the other squad to a max of 5 for every successful wound they caused. WS5 and S5 SW?! Sign me up on that! Sure the example is quite a bit off, but it's still bull to be forced to rely on an entire FOC just to make a shooty army be able to hit their targets. And don't include the FW tetra when looking at markerlights.

I'd pay the same points for a heavy weapon, that only buffs another unit firing at the same target, that other units would pay for a meltagun. And unless I want to spend more points for the model to fire it's other weapon as well, then it's an entire model wasted to only making another model get a buff.

Look at the stealth marker team (Horrible idea, nobody ever try it ever ever) that some people are running (Don't listen to them, bad idea. Terrible unit)
90 points for the team alone, with 1 markerlight and 2 markerdrones making it cost 135 total for 3 BS3 markerlights. I'm paying extra points for the team leader to not fire his main weapon just to give a 50/50 chance to boost another unit's BS. Pants on head slowed.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Look at the stealth marker team (Horrible idea, nobody ever try it ever ever) that some people are running (Don't listen to them, bad idea. Terrible unit) 90 points for the team alone, with 1 markerlight and 2 markerdrones making it cost 135 total for 3 BS3 markerlights. I'm paying extra points for the team leader to not fire his main weapon just to give a 50/50 chance to boost another unit's BS. Pants on head slowed.

I have actually used this, but once my enemies close in I fold, because either they kill the SMT or kill my shooting units. Reducing the effectiveness of the whole set up.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

But they are supposed to be "shooting experts" who train day and night at shooting stuff, yet even the "best of the best" in the codex are mere BS3-as skilled as an average guy.

I don't think that BS3 is so bad from a super-trained soldier who has the eyesight of a mole. A BS4 non-suit infantry model with I2 would be quite odd...

And on topic, I'm quite glad that the Tau will have a Cruddex. Because it means that we will get a good Forgeworld stuff, and its "different" version for sure (Valkyre/Vendetta, Trygon/Mawloc). And I would be happy with anything from FW to find its way into the official codex.

Actually the "Bad Sight" is only for gauging things either.

A: Up close (Which is why they have horrible WS)

B: Depth issues (Which isn't an issue, due to pulse weapons not falling out like normal bullets)

The first is easily shown (WS2) second is not.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Actually the "Bad Sight" is only for gauging things either.

Oh, I meant the bad sight by their more detailed description: the FFG RPG rules. There, the average Tau Fire Warrior have an Agility of 25 and a Perception of 20 while having a Ballistic Skill of 35 (Guardsman's stats are Agility 30-35, Perception 30-35 and BS 35). The two "bad stats" actually decrease their ranged fighting capacity tremendously (they are barely better than a Conscript, and only reach Guardsman level because of their equipment), and I kinda refered to this situation. On the tabletop, you can say that FWs have BS3 because they have I2.

Interesting point. I was actually using a Kroot with the pulse rifle in the game and thought it was kinda broken. Now that I understand how the bad stats reduce it's effectiveness.

FWs just need to be cheaper. And Suits should get a BS increase to 4 because the systems in the suit compensate for their poor depth perception and slow reaction time.

I like Mr Cruddace Nids so wouldn't have a problem with him writing the codex. Where I see a problem is Tau models not only having none of the grimdark but some also looking like cheap toys (XV8). If the new codex deals with that, that will be something.

And don't even get me started on Kroot, they're worse thing that happened to 40k model/ visual design wise with Newcrons as a strong second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
People want ward because they know it'll at least be middle tier and the rest wants that sweet OP spot

No, no, please no, never. I prefer 6 years of uphill battle and 300 points for basic Trygon over this man touching any of Tyranid fluff or models.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The other thing about the leader is the markerlight he gets isn't networked. It points out how the codex doesn't have much synergy. I don't understand why the Team leader can't buff his own unit, and really doubt that I'd fire a suit and FW squad at the same target enough to make it worth it.

I'm starting to suspect a bit of a switcharoud... where a Markerlight (not networked) will work on the model's own squad, and a Networked Markerlight will work for any unit.
Also wondering if it will be simplified a bit... working more like a space marine sergeant with a Signum, except maybe working for the whole squad?

That switch makes sense for the terminology in place.

Personally I think they should all work for all units. Resolve the markerlight effect before the unit shoots.

Also once the markerlight is there, the Seeker should be an automatic hit instead of a BS 5.

Is he like Matt Ward or sth?

So does this mean that there's plans for a Tau codex?

If the Tau codex ends up terrible, it's one of the ones that the Mechanicum codex project writers are working on, so it will at least have an unofficial backup.

Rumor is that Tau have been getting worked on for about two years now, but nobody wants to take charge of writing the dex.

I say give the codex to the writers from FW, they have made almost a codex worth of new units for Tau already, and most of those are actually fair to good units by themselves.

It would make my day for sure.

Coyote81 wrote:
I say give the codex to the writers from FW, they have made almost a codex worth of new units for Tau already, and most of those are actually fair to good units by themselves.

It would make my day for sure.

Stop saying things that I agree with!

Here's what I've learned from some playing experience against both tau and IG with my orks.

both armies utilized a psyker with prescience:

The tau army can shoot once at 30" and with the psyker reroll to hit.

The IG can shoot TWICE (thanks to FRF) and reroll to hit.

now both outrange my shootas, while one wounds most of the time, it comes down to 6 losses.

now the IG, he takes a 20 man blob squad so 40 shots tl'd, and while hitting on 5's and 6's, deals 10 wounds. thats more wounds output for the same cost. (130 for pcs and 2 10 squads) sure i may make a save, (6+) but in my experience its 1 out of 10, strict math hammer says ill save 2 at best.

while not much of a difference, If I save none, the IG player actually forced a save against my 160pt 20 man boyz sqd. The other is getting a face full of ork fist in the next turn or so.

while pulse rifles deal wounds easier, the Tau crappy BS fails to deliver the hits needed to deal the wounds. IG can actually cause more hits and wounds for the price.

against meq its a little more even, the 3+ save changes the score to Tau 2, IG 3.

against each other, its tau 8, IG 8 (7.5 after saves made by tau 4+)

tau are sort of balanced, for the points they dish out around the same kills, unfortunately they are short about 13 bodies to make this at least decent. I say this because in reality, the IG just won the fight in forcing a LD test on the 4 remaining FWs while the IG have 12 men left to fire in the next round (24 more shots, dealing 4.5 wounds after saves)

I did not include markerlights because unlike the pcs, markerlights are not standard with the point cost of the unit.

Paitryn wrote:
Here's what I've learned from some playing experience against both tau and IG with my orks.

both armies utilized a psyker with prescience:

The tau army can shoot once at 30" and with the psyker reroll to hit.

The IG can shoot TWICE (thanks to FRF) and reroll to hit.

now both outrange my shootas, while one wounds most of the time, it comes down to 6 losses.

now the IG, he takes a 20 man blob squad so 40 shots tl'd, and while hitting on 5's and 6's, deals 10 wounds. thats more wounds output for the same cost. (130 for pcs and 2 10 squads) sure i may make a save, (6+) but in my experience its 1 out of 10, strict math hammer says ill save 2 at best.

while not much of a difference, If I save none, the IG player actually forced a save against my 160pt 20 man boyz sqd. The other is getting a face full of ork fist in the next turn or so.

while pulse rifles deal wounds easier, the Tau crappy BS fails to deliver the hits needed to deal the wounds. IG can actually cause more hits and wounds for the price.

against meq its a little more even, the 3+ save changes the score to Tau 2, IG 3.

against each other, its tau 8, IG 8 (7.5 after saves made by tau 4+)

tau are sort of balanced, for the points they dish out around the same kills, unfortunately they are short about 13 bodies to make this at least decent. I say this because in reality, the IG just won the fight in forcing a LD test on the 4 remaining FWs while the IG have 12 men left to fire in the next round (24 more shots, dealing 4.5 wounds after saves)

I did not include markerlights because unlike the pcs, markerlights are not standard with the point cost of the unit.

This math hammer brother after my own heart has explained the simple truth. While the results maybe end up similiar for points costs, the pure number of wounds in the unit and the options already included make this an easy victory for the IG platton being clearly better the FWs and makes me continue to preach the need for FWs to be improved.

Coyote81 wrote:

This math hammer brother after my own heart has explained the simple truth. While the results maybe end up similiar for points costs, the pure number of wounds in the unit and the options already included make this an easy victory for the IG platton being clearly better the FWs and makes me continue to preach the need for FWs to be improved.

However, Pulse rifles do have some other advantages:

-Pulse rifles have longer maximum range, and in 6th, also longer Rapid fire range.
-Pulse rifles can hurt light vehicles, Lasguns can't.
-same goes for some high-toughness targets like Monstrous creatures. T5 targets like Daemon princes or SM Bikes are hurt 4+ with Pulse rifles, 6+ with Lasguns.

Um... But Tau have no psykers. So without allies, they would be hitting much less often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless the point was to show that IG have orders to get around the low BS, while Tau need to bring a secondary army just to try and make the basic troop guardsman level.

Backfire wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

This math hammer brother after my own heart has explained the simple truth. While the results maybe end up similiar for points costs, the pure number of wounds in the unit and the options already included make this an easy victory for the IG platton being clearly better the FWs and makes me continue to preach the need for FWs to be improved.

However, Pulse rifles do have some other advantages:

-Pulse rifles have longer maximum range, and in 6th, also longer Rapid fire range.
-Pulse rifles can hurt light vehicles, Lasguns can't.
-same goes for some high-toughness targets like Monstrous creatures. T5 targets like Daemon princes or SM Bikes are hurt 4+ with Pulse rifles, 6+ with Lasguns.

There is no arguing that the pulse rifles are the only thing the firewarriors have going in their favor, but that doesn't outweigh the variety of advantages that the guardsmen have over the FWs. the main problem I see if that fireawarriors come with disadvantages to weigh with their advantages, where as guardsmen have only advantages, just attempted balance by point value.

Coyote81 wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

This math hammer brother after my own heart has explained the simple truth. While the results maybe end up similiar for points costs, the pure number of wounds in the unit and the options already included make this an easy victory for the IG platton being clearly better the FWs and makes me continue to preach the need for FWs to be improved.

However, Pulse rifles do have some other advantages:

-Pulse rifles have longer maximum range, and in 6th, also longer Rapid fire range.
-Pulse rifles can hurt light vehicles, Lasguns can't.
-same goes for some high-toughness targets like Monstrous creatures. T5 targets like Daemon princes or SM Bikes are hurt 4+ with Pulse rifles, 6+ with Lasguns.

There is no arguing that the pulse rifles are the only thing the firewarriors have going in their favor, but that doesn't outweigh the variety of advantages that the guardsmen have over the FWs. the main problem I see if that fireawarriors come with disadvantages to weigh with their advantages, where as guardsmen have only advantages, just attempted balance by point value.

Maybe instead of factoring the cost with them, maybe make it so that if the Team Leader is alive, he grants a +1BS bonus to the group, justifying why you would want a sarge in the squad. Maybe use the fact he's coordinating fire with an auspex sort of wargear (I cannot remember what the tau's equivalent was called) make them slightly cheaper, but make the team leader worth buying aside from wargear he doesn't really use.

Or have him for free and all that, but you pay for an upgrade for him to pass onto the squad. Probably some different options for the sake of diversity within the codex.

 n0t_u wrote:
Or have him for free and all that, but you pay for an upgrade for him to pass onto the squad. Probably some different options for the sake of diversity within the codex.

Actually that would be pretty neat, upgrades given to the Team Leader that benefit the whole squad akin to wargear for other races which would define protecting the Team Leader over the rest of the squad. Seeing as most of the time if you took a Team leader, it was simply for the Fire Knife, having an actual purpose for him would be useful.

I was hoping that's how the marker light would end up being. You purchase a marker for team leaders
For every team leader with a marker light, roll a BS test at the beginning of the shooting phase.
For each squad a successful test passed gives them different buffs. Crisis suits ignore cover, Firewarriors re-roll to 1's to hit, broadsides re-roll wound/pen, so on and so forth. If a unit is targetted by multiple units then the ability stacks. So if suits and broadside lit up a tank, they get no cover from either unit and reroll pen, if its destroyed before the other units fire the. They don't get their buff when targeting another unit. I know my example is a bit odd, and needs a lot of work, but its what I feel markers should be. Having an entire slot dedicated to making your shooting army shoot better than standard, even for elites, is BS in my book.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Um... But Tau have no psykers. So without allies, they would be hitting much less often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless the point was to show that IG have orders to get around the low BS, while Tau need to bring a secondary army just to try and make the basic troop guardsman level.

He was probably saying that Tau took an Eldar ally. In any case, Tau have markerlights to get around their low BS, as well as to deprive their target of cover saves. They do not need a secondary army.

 Archonate wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Um... But Tau have no psykers. So without allies, they would be hitting much less often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless the point was to show that IG have orders to get around the low BS, while Tau need to bring a secondary army just to try and make the basic troop guardsman level.

He was probably saying that Tau took an Eldar ally. In any case, Tau have markerlights to get around their low BS, as well as to deprive their target of cover saves. They do not need a secondary army.

But you would be better off spending the points from Markerlights on Allies.

a minimum squad of BS3 markerlights, including a transport that is for the most part overpriced and useless, you're spending about 130 points. And thats for 4 markers, which on average 2 will hit.

Unless someone has an excessive amount of markerlights, he is going to have more important units to use them on like crisis suits and broadsides. It's still insane to say that markerlights justifies BS3 when they are easy to lose, expensive to field, immobile, and too innaccurrate themselves.

No other army has to dedicate a FOC slot to to making the army suck less. The fact that allies lets us take a psyker who can get such a useful ability shows you how bad this is, since other armies get this as part of their regular army, not having to borrow from other 'dexs and generally have a higher BS anyways.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
including a transport that is for the most part overpriced and useless, .

Actually, the Devilfish is kinda' cool now. 3+ cover save on the move (Jink + Disruption Pod) or a 2+ behind an Aegis makes it nearly as tough as an AV14 vehicle. And with the new Turbo Boost rules, you can do some crazy FoF moves with a DF and 12 FWs.

That's 205 points minimum! Devilfish are tough, but they just don't offer enough for their high price. Especially since the fish doesn't count as scoring anymore.

Their weapons are too limited only having 5 S5 shots at 18" range.

And if you're trying to move your devilfish up at all, then you're risking the loss of shrouding. If you really want to use FW, just stick them in a ADL and enjoy 30" range.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
That's 205 points minimum! Devilfish are tough, but they just don't offer enough for their high price. Especially since the fish doesn't count as scoring anymore.

Their weapons are too limited only having 5 S5 shots at 18" range.

And if you're trying to move your devilfish up at all, then you're risking the loss of shrouding. If you really want to use FW, just stick them in a ADL and enjoy 30" range.

Yeah, but thats 205 points of pure annoyment for your opponent. The DF can soak up lots of damage (7 BS4 LC shots to strip a single HP?), and once the enemy gets close (and he has to, as long-range shots are fairly ineffective) then you can play FoF with the attackers. And it is a very heart-warming sight to see half of the enemy army trying to take out a single DF and 12 FWs while the rest of your army is busy doing whatevery they want.