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In this Double Header, we see Reecius' Night Lords out against Jy2's Tyranids, and again against Capt'n Dees' 1,000 Sons in a pair of 1750pt BAO test matches.

Enjoy!

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/11/03/chaos-double-header-part-2/

Your reports are usually entertaining but I cant help but whince every turn when you blame the dice. Some of the rolls were lucky for jy2. But there was no small set of rolls that determined the outcome. As jy2 said afterward, you lost at list building. 4 squads of troops seems mighty light especially when they are not very good. Plaguebearers losing go to ground makes them way less impressive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seems like two squads of cultists + 2 squads of plaguemarines would be much better. Bikes + lord or spawn and lord could fit well too.

Reecius, man tough loss. His list appeared alot more Competitive though.

I'm rootin for ya, keep on keepin on.

Just watched game 1, tough dice, but Nids are hard core now. Hard to see what you could have different tactics wise.

I do love the "Alpha Legion" Heldrakes...

Thanks for taking the time to make these battle Report Reecuis and try not to lose hope. JY2 nid list is very good and he did get lucky on with his psychic powers. You played the Screamers too aggressively, left it with no support and was a huge target.

I don't think Daemons are that great of choice for CSM allies, Derp striking is still to limiting and other than the new Tzeench units nothing is worth taking.

Try IG to get more bodies on the table.

I loved Uncle Bad Touch ,you need to get him painted up, even if Defilers aren't worth playing.

Just in case people missed my list at the beginning of the video. Here it is:


2K Tyranids

Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers
Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers

Doom of Ma'lantai - Mycetic Spore
3x Hive Guards
3x Hive Guards

Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Toxin Sacs, Crushing Claws
10x Termagants
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Toxin Sacs, Scything Talons (had an extra 5-pts left)
10x Termagants

3x Biovores
3x Biovores


Normally I would run Swarmy and a flyrant at 2K. However, that is a little too much points-wise at 1750. Thus, I downgraded Swarmy to another flyrant so that I could take all the other units that I wanted. While Swarmy is a better force-multiplier unit, the extra flyrant adds more mobility which I really need especially after dropping my gargoyles. For those who don't have the tools to handle flyers, the dual-tyrants are particularly vicious. However, if one brings an army with enough shooting, then the flyrants will probably die fairly quickly. Unfortunately for Reece, his army just doesn't have enough shooting, especially of the ranged variety.

I knew going in that this would be a tough battle for Reece. He doesn't have enough troops and the troops he does have do not contribute enough to his offense. Plaguemarines are decent, but just 1 unit won't do much of anything. The zombies are a great unit. However, there's just not enough of them. As for the plaguebearers, I'm not really high on them this edition. The nerf to cover, FNP and Slow & Purposeful means that they just aren't what they used to be. The only exception are plagues in a Epidemius build. Otherwise, I'd rather go for 2 units of zombies instead. The Night Lords also do not have enough shooting. Just 1 unit of oblits and 1 unit of havocs won't cut it, especially against a very tough army like nids (it also won't cut it against a meched-up army). The screamers/flamers are a great addition. However, the moment they landed, you just know your opponent is going to focus everything he has on them, which is exactly what I did (dang flamers lasted much, much longer than I had thought). Because besides the flamers/screamers, there were just no other threats of high priority. Well, and the helldrake also, but my flyrant can easily take care of it.

While I like the new CSM dex, it does have some major holes in it. That is unavoidable unless you bring in allies. While the Tzeentch units are very darn good, I don't know if they're the right allies for a competitive CSM army. Why? Because unless the core army is packing some serious threats, the flamers/screamers will always be the ones to get shot down first. Their threat level is higher than almost anything else in the CSM codex. Perhaps as some say, guard maybe a better ally? I have some theories for a competitive CSM build (and no, not an Epidemius-CSM build) abut for now, they are still ideas in my head.

Reece, keep on experimenting with your chaos marines. I'm sure eventually you will find a build that is both competitive and fun to you. Just hang in there.

@Lvalx

Yeah, it is a very bad habit of mine. I do bitch about dice way too much, and I am aware of it, but sometimes I allow myself to complain about it too much, that is true.

I am glad you enjoy the reports, otherwise!

As for the troops, I that 4 is fine, the problem with Chaos is that the troops are either too flimsy or too expensive. Zombies seem to be the best option so far.

The game was actually quite close up until the very end. A few critical things gone my way and I could have taken it. I knew going into it that I was fighting an uphill battle, but I don't mind that as it is better to practice difficult battles than just play easy match-ups. You learn more from defeat than victory.

@jdjamesdean

Thanks! Yeah, Jim's list was very good. I think the Chaos list I was using, or a derivation of it, will be quite good. I just haven't found the sweet spot, yet.

@Jifel

Haha, the Alpha Legion Helldrakes, that was clever!

And yes, Nids are very good now. A lot of competitive players I talk to are playing Nids. They're great fun, too.

@Nakor

Yeah, the Screamers ended up being placed poorly as I had thought that Flamers would have been there to help! Haha, but they misshaped. My plan was to clump everything up with the Masque, hit them hard with Flamers and then come in with Screamers,m but that didn't work out.

Daemons are super random, which does limit them, I agree. I think they are solid allies, but IG is most likely a lot more reliable choice.

And glad you liked Uncle Bad Tough! hahaha, he never lives past turn 1! haha

@Jim

Great game as always!

Your list is solid, my Bug list is very similar, I am sticking with Swarmy, though! I love my Ymgarls too, and will be sticking with mine.

Chaos has some solid lists, and I will keep messing with mine until I find the right mix of units. I knew you had the advantage but it wasn't totally lopsided at all, it was a good game.

I think with some further experimentation it will become clear.

A lot of folks say the new csm is so pricey but all I see is undercosted units. Lords, sorcerers, plain csm, cultists, havocs, spawns and bikes all seem very undercosted. 15 csm with mark of khorne and icon of wrath is only 245. And regular cultists arent bad for plain jane objective grabbing.

Still the codex sucks balls if you face the top armies.

I'm starting to give up to make a good list, part of being an absolute nurgle hater.

There is no way you are going to match:
Tyrannids, Full blown Tzeentch Deamons, Necrons, Grey Knights, Space Wolves.

I would recomend bailing on CSM because from what I have seen they are pretty terrible. I dont think they are optimized to be competitive more of a fun army army to play. If the dice are that bad for you Reece try changing up how you roll them. I watch you just pick up a die and drop it which I think hinders the probability. Why not cup the hands and give it a spin to add more variety? I may sound crazy but I really believe it works and I tell people to roll like this and they tend to like it better. Either that or just stick to Orks or Nids where you can roll massive amounts of dice and it wont even matter!

Chaos can compete easily. I'd play csm over sw. The heldrake alone can swing that matchup. The problem is that people focus too much on toys. Plain csm are a bargain. Same cost as a sister! And sisters did well at NOVA.

LValx wrote:
Chaos can compete easily. I'd play csm over sw. The heldrake alone can swing that matchup. The problem is that people focus too much on toys. Plain csm are a bargain. Same cost as a sister! And sisters did well at NOVA.

Can potentially turn the matchup, agreed.
I truly feel the need for 3 of these badboys though. I think it's that good.

CSM's are great. However everyone wants the "fun" stuff to work and are overlooking the Downright amazing stuff

I think you guys make some great points. Most of the good lists I see have few to no CSMs, which bugs me for some reason.

LValx said he has been having success with regular CSM, and I am very curious to hear more about that as I want mine to work but I just have no luck with them. Mine always run away like weenies.

I was thinking taking some with just bolters might not be bad. They are a good objective grabbing unit that also has good AI capabilities, like how I ran my Dire Avengers in my Footdar list. The thing their though, was that they were made fearless by the Avatar which makes a really, really big difference.

@yodisisray

Honestly, my dice aren't any better or worse than anyone's, it's just those critical roles that swing against you in a tight game that get me to complaining! haha

It's just the way the game goes, I need to man up and shut up about it, it is annoying.

But, you are not crazy about saying it is better to toss the dice. For a truly random roll, a die needs to bounce 3 times (IIRC). For example, in Vegas, playing Craps, you have to bounce the dice off the back wall and they have to tumble a certain amount of times for the toss to count. Your instincts on that are right on the money.

Don't forget you can take CSM's with any Mark you like (or no Mark at all) and still give them the Icon of Vengeance for Fearless. I suck at rolling LD checks too and the old Re-Roll Icon used to help a bit but not having to roll at all is even better. I like 10 CSM with MoN and IoV with gear of your choice, it's a good solid squad that is T5 and Fearless for scoring until wiped out.

I'm going to go ahead and say you should stick with Chaos, but I think you need a few changes. Heldrakes are ace as stated, but I'd say Rhinos really aren't worth it. And Uncle Badtouch... well... go with the Heldrake. For the Havocs I'd consider adding a second squad, or some body bags to make sure they shoot more.

People saying Chaos is awful really pisses me off, perhaps because of how many people wrote off Nids.

What's most important here; ye listen to awesome music.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

LValx wrote:
Chaos can compete easily. I'd play csm over sw. The heldrake alone can swing that matchup. The problem is that people focus too much on toys. Plain csm are a bargain. Same cost as a sister! And sisters did well at NOVA.

Can potentially turn the matchup, agreed.
I truly feel the need for 3 of these badboys though. I think it's that good.

CSM's are great. However everyone wants the "fun" stuff to work and are overlooking the Downright amazing stuff

Help me out. What's the amazing stuff?

DarthDiggler wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

LValx wrote:
Chaos can compete easily. I'd play csm over sw. The heldrake alone can swing that matchup. The problem is that people focus too much on toys. Plain csm are a bargain. Same cost as a sister! And sisters did well at NOVA.

Can potentially turn the matchup, agreed.
I truly feel the need for 3 of these badboys though. I think it's that good.

CSM's are great. However everyone wants the "fun" stuff to work and are overlooking the Downright amazing stuff

Help me out. What's the amazing stuff?

Sorcerors, either blank or Slaanesh.
Chaos Lords on Bikes/Steeds
Typhus/Zombies
Cultists
Bikes
Heldrakes
havocs
Nurgle Oblits
Spawn (if attached to bike lord)

All the above are freaking great. Then, here's the good-but-quite-freaking-great list...

Plague Marines
Noie Marines
Regular Marines
Raptors
Forgefiends
Predators
Nurgle Flying DP with Black Mace

Of course, you can work in other things that'll still be good in th right hands, like WarpSmiths, Vindicators, maybe even Berzerkers! (But probably never Warp Talons...)

Basically, CSM can be very shooty and fairly resilient, while having fast tough units and also having great basic Assault units, as well as some potentially brutal Counter-charge units (Like a Blind Fury axelord on a bike with attached spawn)

@BladeWalker

My only problem with the IoV is that it gets sniped so damn easy. We all use barrage weapons here routinely and just snipe those things like crazy.

@jifel

But, Uncle Bad Touch is their mascot! Haha, but yes, he is pretty terrible!

@Godless-Mimicry

That is just the background music in the shop, folks always say they like which is cool because it's just the music we like.

Few things I noticed, first game doom using a psyhic power on the plague marines then charging the plague bearers, is that right? or is it one of dooms fancy powers?

Second game, you say the cultists made their saves from the flamer, what saves?

Also did his heldrake have a baleflamer? wasnt he stunned from the quad gun interceptor how could he then shoot the havocs?

MarkyMark wrote:
Few things I noticed, first game doom using a psyhic power on the plague marines then charging the plague bearers, is that right? or is it one of dooms fancy powers?

Second game, you say the cultists made their saves from the flamer, what saves?

Also did his heldrake have a baleflamer? wasnt he stunned from the quad gun interceptor how could he then shoot the havocs?

The Doom's power is an aura effect that affects all enemy units within 6". It isn't a shooting attack (though I did take the psychic shriek witchfire power).


-------------------------------------------------


I wouldn't take more than 2 helldrakes. They're cool and all, but a CSM army still has 2 core issues to address - troops and dakka. You need to allocate the majority of your points there IMO.

I've actually been thinking about Nurgle chaos space marines. T5 MEQ's for only 16pts...that's a bargain! Maybe 1 large block of them, 2 units of zombies and 1-2 plague marines in my Nurgle army. Of course 13-pt marines are pretty awesome as well and bears serious consideration.

Then, most importantly, max out your Heavies because that is where all your shooting will be coming from (of the ranged variety).

And if the points are high enough, then I would consider allies to address some of the shortcomings of the CSM. IG, necrons and daemons are all worth considering.

@MarkyMark

Jy2 answered about Doom.

Zombies have a 5+ FnP save.

Helldrake ignores stunned/shaken on a 2+ due to Daemonic possession.

Ah thanks buddy, didnt relise they ignore a 2+ for helldrakes!, damn! and of course didnt relise they were zombie cultists. Thanks for the vid and bat rep, enjoyed it even if you didnt the first game!, I have yet to play a big bug list, hopefully will do soon.

No worries, glad to clear that stuff up!

 jy2 wrote:

I wouldn't take more than 2 helldrakes. They're cool and all, but a CSM army still has 2 core issues to address - troops and dakka. You need to allocate the majority of your points there IMO.

I've actually been thinking about Nurgle chaos space marines. T5 MEQ's for only 16pts...that's a bargain! Maybe 1 large block of them, 2 units of zombies and 1-2 plague marines in my Nurgle army. Of course 13-pt marines are pretty awesome as well and bears serious consideration.

Then, most importantly, max out your Heavies because that is where all your shooting will be coming from (of the ranged variety).

And if the points are high enough, then I would consider allies to address some of the shortcomings of the CSM. IG, necrons and daemons are all worth considering.

This is directed to both JY2 and reecius:

Why I would argue with you about MoN Marines vs Plague Marines (PM):

T5 vs T5, FNP, Fearless- self explanatory
Blight Grenades- off/def grenades. takes away the charge bonus attack from attackers
Plague Knife- poisoned, so I reroll wounds against T4 and below. awesome against almost everything I'll attack
I3- some point to it as a drawback. makes me feel better that I shoot/rapid fire rather than charge. I'll swing second anyhow and have blight grenades, plus I'd rather rapid fire as a charge response anyhow. Also, I equip my champions with either a power fist or plasma pistol/power axe, in case he survives. but you could cheaply just give him a plasma pistol for the couple shots he'll get before he dies
Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Plague Knife- all bases covered
2 special weapons- get 2 plasma guns at the fluffy number of 7 PMs

Mix these with MoN spawn (T6) for seriously fast tarpitting and oblits and a helldrake. T6 bikers would also complement well. Relentless rapid firing and T6 make these another fast tarpit squad.
Also, if you want a pet berserker, put the khorne lord on juggernaut with plain jane spawn, as paying the points for MoK is worthless, as they already have rage.....so stupid
I prefer a nurgle sorcerer, probably on a bike. Man, psychic buffing is so good in Warhammer Fantasy-40k ver 8/6. er, 6th edition.
I run my nurgle lord with MoN, palanquin, burning brand, power axe and sigil (sometimes). Foot slogger. May trade palanquin for Terminator armor. 2+ save is king in 6th.

Oh, and I'll caveat, I take VotLW on all marines. Hatred pays for itself in the first round of HTH. Against marines. Cherry pick when you build one off lists if thats how you roll.

I think this is a good take all comers list for friendly games, not against WAAC guys. It won't match well against IG tank spam armies. Or your Necron flyer spam army. But 97% of America doesn't see those armies. Don't know about DE, but I would say it has a chance against the tyranids you played. Lots of shots in there, lots of plasma. Lots of fearless.

I agree that Plague Marines are awesome. I think they are the best cult troop again this edition. Plague Knives make them just awesome.

VotLW is also great for regular CSMs, it halves their odds of failing a morale check. Hatred, if you play Mainres a lot, is awesome too, as you pointed out.

And yes, Spawn are awesome. Very good unit, no doubt.