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Salacious Greed wrote:

So, I think PM are hands down the best troops choice in the codex (of Cult troops) when you know how to maximise them. But, everyone has to play to their own play style and flavor, so this doesn't make much difference if you don't want a slow, compact methodical army. Flavor and play style trump stripped down statistical comparisons anyway. Play to have fun with your army!

They were by far the best in the 4th edition 'dex, and remain by far the best in the current 'dex. Although Slaanesh did close the game some with I:5 and icon of excess. For specialist assault troops like twin claw terminators the MOS is the way to go.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

loreweaver wrote:Also, the guy who said Chosen don't suck, clearly looked at the unit before the points cost. Chosen cost too much, like everything else in the Chaos book.

You preach about people clearly not looking at the book and then make a statement like this? It's always amusing when the pot speaks.

Sorry what? Chosen are too expensive. How is that the "pot calling the kettle black"?

Chosen suck, make an argument that they don't. They, quite clearly, cost way too many points.

---

Also, regarding bikes, as someone mentioned it. Bikes are actually pretty reasonably costed. I withdraw my previous statement of "everything in the book costs too much" to "most things in the book cost too much"

loreweaver wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

loreweaver wrote:Also, the guy who said Chosen don't suck, clearly looked at the unit before the points cost. Chosen cost too much, like everything else in the Chaos book.

You preach about people clearly not looking at the book and then make a statement like this? It's always amusing when the pot speaks.

Sorry what? Chosen are too expensive. How is that the "pot calling the kettle black"?

Chosen suck, make an argument that they don't. They, quite clearly, cost way too many points.

---

Also, regarding bikes, as someone mentioned it. Bikes are actually pretty reasonably costed. I withdraw my previous statement of "everything in the book costs too much" to "most things in the book cost too much"

My point isn't about Chosen, you said 'Chosen cost too much, like everything else in the Chaos book', and that's the issue. Lords, Sorcerers, all but one of the SCs, Terminators, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikes, Heldrakes, Spawn, Raptors, Havocs, Maulerfiends, Oblits, and Predators are all reasonably costed with a few being a bit undercosted. That's most of the Codex, and they don't cost too much. Or were you expecting Necron levels of brokeness with this book?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

My point isn't about Chosen, you said 'Chosen cost too much, like everything else in the Chaos book', and that's the issue. Lords, Sorcerers, all but one of the SCs, Terminators, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikes, Heldrakes, Spawn, Raptors, Havocs, Maulerfiends, Oblits, and Predators are all reasonably costed with a few being a bit undercosted. That's most of the Codex, and they don't cost too much. Or were you expecting Necron levels of brokeness with this book?

Fair enough.

I'd argue that Lords and Sorcerers are a tax. Both over 100pts once you kit them out. If you leave them cheap, they're not very competitive (but at least they're cheap).

SC's are all quite pricey for what they do, I'm not seeing any special value to any of them. Maybe Kharn.

Terminators are slightly over-costed, but competitive
Plague Marines, respectable value, but over costed. 2pts less would be about right.
Noise Marines are alright, but too easy to spend too many points on (250 points for a unit with a blastmaster and some toys)
Cultists are over-priced. Should be 40pts base and 3pts / cultist. At 4 points per guy, they're like guardsmen without any of the guardsmen benefits.
Bikes are under-costed, which is good, because the book needs something of value.
Heldrakes are over-costed, no question. If they were 20pts less, they'd be much better. They compare unfavorably to Vendetta's.
Spawn are good value.
Raptors are balanced, but easy to spend points on. The unit's not very competitive.
Havoc's can be good. I'm a fan of the 5 man unit with 4 autocannons, those are good value.
Maulterfiends are balanced, due to size and ease of walker death, only effective if spammed.
Oblits are about right
Predators are about right

Edit: Lets limit this to scoring choices though...
All 8 potential scoring choices are either "almost balanced" or over-priced.
The best value coming in from Typhus's Plague Zombies and Basic CSM (10 guys, two special weapons, in a rhino for ~225)

Scoring Choices being
Chosen (with Abbaddon tax)
Thousand Sons (with Sorcerer, or Ahriman tax)
Zombies (with Typhus)
Plague Marines (Nurgle Lord tax with or Typhus)
Noise Marines (with Slaanesh Lord/Lucious tax)
Beserkers (with Khorne Lord Tax or Kharn)
Basic CSM
Cultists

loreweaver wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

My point isn't about Chosen, you said 'Chosen cost too much, like everything else in the Chaos book', and that's the issue. Lords, Sorcerers, all but one of the SCs, Terminators, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikes, Heldrakes, Spawn, Raptors, Havocs, Maulerfiends, Oblits, and Predators are all reasonably costed with a few being a bit undercosted. That's most of the Codex, and they don't cost too much. Or were you expecting Necron levels of brokeness with this book?

Fair enough.


Plague Marines, respectable value, but over costed. 2pts less would be about right.
Heldrakes are over-costed, no question. If they were 20pts less, they'd be much better. They compare unfavorably to Vendetta's.
Raptors are balanced, but easy to spend points on. The unit's not very competitive.

Disagree about PM, HellDrakes, and Raptors
PMs get soo many beneftis, they really are worth every bit of their 23 point cost. A similar CSM costs 18 points and the PM get FNP, blight grenades, fearless, 2 specials, and plague knives for 5 points. Thats a good deal.
Helldrakes are about right, Vendettas are simply 50 points to cheap.
Raptors are overcosted, far worse than a lot of things in the book. They should be 16(perhaps even 15) points with VotlW as +1 instead of +2. They are meant for combat so they need the hatred, meaning they now cost 19 points instead of a more reasonable 15-16 points.
Looking at assault marines vs tactical marines, the jump pack only costs 2 points per model, and CSM are 13 points base.

loreweaver wrote:All 8 potential scoring choices are either "almost balanced" or over-priced.
The best value coming in from Typhus's Plague Zombies and Basic CSM (10 guys, two special weapons, in a rhino for ~225)

You obviously know already that I disagree with you on most of the above, so I don't need to repeat myself. However, maybe it is because you are misinformed of costs? At the least, this comment above makes me believe so, as 10 CSM with two Meltas in a Rhino is 195pts, and with Plasma is 205pts. Not really close to what you had thought.

BTW, as noted, don't compare anything to Vendettas; everyone knows they are heavily undercosted. Flyers in all the future books are going to start paying for all the new special rules they never had before they became Flyers, which is why the Heldrake seems expensive, however they always get their weight in gold back on the battlefield.

 muagenreaper wrote:
Remember any cult you take has and hq tax to to turn them into troops and ksons are hard to dig out once they get to where they are going . yes pm can are just as good at this and have more flexible weapon options however mon is more expensive on all other units and will be killed by the same fusilade of fire as ksons aand the icon is just as useless and cost about the same after upgrades so in all actuality the best bet is to take a nurgle lord of some sort and huron and take pms instead because pms have one other advantage they dont leave their blades and pistols at home and epidemus +plague marines and cultists = evil

Small arms fire is much less effective against plague marines than it is thousand sons. Thousand sons are no more resilient vs bolter fire than regular CSM, yet cost close to twice as much per model.

The HQ tax for any cult troop isn't very high. Non-existent really because you have to field an HQ. Unless you are going to daemon prince out the cost to move cult marines into troops is nothing.

Apparently you didnt notice the previous posts whineing about the hq tax i was merely pointing out that any cult has an hq tax to turn them into troops
also if you actually read the post i eventually meandered to the pms side

I see lots of people mention a tax, but I often think to myself, is it really a tax when you'd pay those few point anyways to make you biker lord T6? I see see it being a take for +1 I/+1inv or rage/CA. But +1T is no tax at all in most cases.

Long live the plague marines, or at least until they run into a Space Marine Hospitalier Fleet. lol

Plague Marines are brutal, played a game with them again last night.

Their blight grenades plus Poison plus T5 FnP makes them very worth their points. In my opinion PM's are the best option like they were in 5th but now they are even better.

Man, I couldn't agree more that PM are soooo good. I'll take a squad of 7 PMs hands down any day over a squad of 10 CSM. Blight grenades, plague weapons, FNP, Fearless, 2 special weapons below 10 guys, 24" shots on the move now. That points difference from MoN CSM to PM is not worth saving to take MoN CSM. 1 PM squad per 500 points and everything else to either flavor, play style or the meta in your area. My playstyle is relentless footsloggers, though I'm going to buy the helldrake today. Put the undead fantasy dragon wings on it maybe to make it nurgly instead of the metal wings it comes with(not swapping them in the same spot).

@Kevlar: I agree with you, MoS on Terminators with power weapons is brutal. I have a power armored squad of Chosen kitted with 2 melta guns, 3 power weapons and a champ with a power weapon. They look fantastic, but I don't play them. They'd do great with a Slaaneshi sorcerer buffing them with Biomancy, but only really when playing large games. And between schedule and all, I don't get that many games, and my circle mainly enjoys 1500pts. I like bigger games that take all of 3 hours. (Mainly 'cause we're not rules lawyering each other to death and playing friendly.) So I just play my all nurgle army.

Are you bringing the great space chicken?

Kevlar wrote:

 muagenreaper wrote:
Remember any cult you take has and hq tax to to turn them into troops and ksons are hard to dig out once they get to where they are going . yes pm can are just as good at this and have more flexible weapon options however mon is more expensive on all other units and will be killed by the same fusilade of fire as ksons aand the icon is just as useless and cost about the same after upgrades so in all actuality the best bet is to take a nurgle lord of some sort and huron and take pms instead because pms have one other advantage they dont leave their blades and pistols at home and epidemus +plague marines and cultists = evil

The HQ tax for any cult troop isn't very high. Non-existent really because you have to field an HQ. Unless you are going to daemon prince out the cost to move cult marines into troops is nothing.

For PM, Zerkers, and NM you dont just need an HQ but you need a Lord with that mark. For Tsons you need a sorc with MoT. Taking MoT on a sorc gets you a better invuln as normal but also makes you roll on tzeenches terrible spell table. Its a huge tax.

God of magic my ass, right Exergy?

Soooooo. Getting tired of the "can't overwatch" con people keep saying. Are you guys really missing the few 6's that hit (and probably dont wound?) against models in cover when they charge?

 Brometheus wrote:
God of magic my ass, right Exergy?

Soooooo. Getting tired of the "can't overwatch" con people keep saying. Are you guys really missing the few 6's that hit (and probably dont wound?) against models in cover when they charge?

The biggest "con" is they die to small arms fire or regular assault troops the same as a 13 point marine. You just don't get enough bodies to do anything useful. No overwatch just adds insult to injury, you can't even thin out that herd of 30 orks before they rape your face.

Brometheus wrote:Soooooo. Getting tired of the "can't overwatch" con people keep saying. Are you guys really missing the few 6's that hit (and probably dont wound?) against models in cover when they charge?

Not as much as the rest of us are tired of the ignorance to their downsides con I'd wager. Kevlar sums it up nicely above without going into the endless detail several of us have had to lay on the table already. I have to say though, it's like they really captured the true essence of Chaos in this book, because it seems once someone likes something in it they become devoted, which is kind of cool when you consider what it is.