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So the new Chaos Space Marine codex is out and our Plague Marines became elite choices instead of troop unless we take a Chaos Lord with the MoN.

The basic Plague Marine squad with 10 models cost 240 pts with no upgrade and no special weapons.
The basic Chaos Space Marine squad with 10 models, close combat weapons and the MoN cost 188 pts.

So the Plague Marines have FnP, blight grenades, plague knives and they are fearless.
The CSM squad have Krak and Frag grenades which are better than blight grenades who are only defensive and offensive grenades and give no plus. Plague knives are cool because they are poisoned (+4) but it's useful only against MC's or high toughness models. FnP is great to have but it's been downgraded to a 5+ save against anything in the 6th edition.

We can give fearless to our CSM squad of Nurgle with an Icon of Vengeance, so our squad of 10 model cost 213 pts. I know the Icon can be sniped or killed but it still gives fearless to the unit so it's about the same. That fearlesness can also be achieved by joining a fearless character to the squad, therefore saving the need for an Icon, but I won't factor that into account.

Now both of them have T5 but the Plague Marines have I3 while the CSM of Nurgle still have I4.

What do you think? Is it worth it to take Plague Marines instead of Chaos Space Marines dedicated to Nurgle?

So it comes down to I3, FnP, plague knife Plague Marines for 240 pts vs I4 CSM of Nurgle for 213 pts.

Does that 27 pts justify the drop of initiative and the gain of FnP and a poisoned close combat weapon?

I feel that a squad of CSM with the MoN can be tailored more easily than a squad of Plague Marines and that they can be a good alternative in smaller point games. Also I like the freedom to take the HQ I want to take instead of taking a Chaos Lord with the MoN so my Plague Marines count as troops.

Being able to take multiple special weapons like Double Plasma without even needing a full squad.

Being able to Re-roll CC due to poison.

T5 with FNP means pretty much armor/cover +fnp to most weapons in the game.

I would either go CSM Dirt cheap.
Or squads of PM 7-8 deep

plague knives give posion, which means you either are wounding on 4+ against superiour toughness or you get a reroll against equal or lessor toughness. Rerolling to wound is great.

Plague Marines can also take 2 special weapons without taking 10 men

so think of it this way
3 units of 5 PM with 2 meltas each, costs 435
2 units of 10 CSM with CCW with 2 meltas each, costs 420

yes the PM only have 15 bodies, but FNP means they will last longer against anyhting but str10
plague knives mean they will do more damage in CC than the CSM
the only place the CSM win is with bolter shots but the plagues have 50% more special weapons and can fire at multiple targets.

If you want to add rhinos it might affect your choices but sometimes more rhinos are better.

Yes, I must admit that the number of special weapons in our units do matter and that FnP can make a squad last longer.

I forgot about the re-roll in CC too due to poison attacks which a net advantage.

Plus the fact that they are fearless without an Icon.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Being able to take multiple special weapons like Double Plasma without even needing a full squad.

Being able to Re-roll CC due to poison.

T5 with FNP means pretty much armor/cover +fnp to most weapons in the game.

This. 5 Plague Marines with 2 special weapons in a Rhino... x 3, make them scoring. Play Typhus and throw 70-100 zombies on the board while you're at it.

Plague Marines really are the best troops choice Chaos has. They beat Zerkers in melee while still being pretty shooty, all while being T5 with FnP.

If you were talking about plain old cheap CSMs then I'd say it is a toss-up and depends on the list, but with the MoN they become expensive, losing their most important advantage, and as such I'd say Plague Marines.

T5 FNP is amazingly good. Blight grenades and poisoned weapons are very solid. 2x special weapons below 10 man strength is really good.

I would take my 7x Plague Marine squad with 2 plasma guns over a similar 10 man CSM squad absolutely any day.

I had worked out some sloppy expected value mathhammer and if I recall correctly if you run 5 man PM squads with double plasma vs 10 man CSM, MoN squads with double plasma you get the same durability (as long as FNP isn't ignored) with more firepower from the PMs than CSM point for point. If you run larger squads of PMs then you can shift the balance from offense to defense and, for the same points, get similar firepower in the two squads with PMs having higher durability.

Considering that a CSM with MoN costs 16 points vs 24 for a Plague Marine (so 2/3rds the price) the points and is 2/3rds as durable (due to FNP) Plague Marines are almost always going to come out ahead. The exceptions come from when you're unable/unwilling to take a Nurgle lord, are using CSM as allies (so that you can't make PMs troops), and potentially against some I3 and I4 units in close combat. Plague marines really are the chicken de China, the Chinese chicken.

Yeah, Plagues are superior in most ways. A better comparison would be Plague Marines against Slaneesh CSM in close combat etc.

The CSM advantage is not cost efficiency, it's customization. Even the Bezerkers are better point for point that Khorne CSMs, for example.

Also remember that part of the cost of Plague marines is running the appropriate lord. Granted, you might have run a Nurgle lord anyway, but it does limit you, and you get a better specilist for that trade off. For example, personally I'd much rather run a Khorne lord with Axe of Blinding fury in most lists, as it's the deadliest lord by far.... but I can;t really use Bezerkers for defending objectives, so I need to use some CSMs too. Or just bite the bullet and get a somewhat weaker Nurgle lord.

My basic list starts with :
Typhus (All the toys : psyker, CC beast, daemon weapon, PM as troops...)
2 7-strong squads of PM /w 2 specials (melta or flamers) + champ with only meltabomb.

I'd take PM over nurgle CSM anyday. It was the plague knives that made it for me. I usually used them as running around on wheels and melta-ing everyting. In the end tar-pitting some unit. Now, I have less fear of them getting stuck in combat.

DrDuckman wrote:
Even the Bezerkers are better point for point that Khorne CSMs, for example.

Except they're not. For similar cost you get less Berserkers, with less specials, paying a premium for WS5 and Fearless. More Marines with the same combat potential but with more flexibility is a better choice in every way.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

DrDuckman wrote:
Even the Bezerkers are better point for point that Khorne CSMs, for example.

Except they're not. For similar cost you get less Berserkers, with less specials, paying a premium for WS5 and Fearless. More Marines with the same combat potential but with more flexibility is a better choice in every way.

basically yes. Zerkers were nerfed hard in 6th.

 Exergy wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

DrDuckman wrote:
Even the Bezerkers are better point for point that Khorne CSMs, for example.

Except they're not. For similar cost you get less Berserkers, with less specials, paying a premium for WS5 and Fearless. More Marines with the same combat potential but with more flexibility is a better choice in every way.

basically yes. Zerkers were nerfed hard in 6th.

Sadly yes. No I5,+random charge and overwatch hurt, and the no assaulting out of vehicles without ramps/open topped was the rank 2 month old cherry place atop this cake.

I still think plague marines are worth it, even with the lord tax. Nurgle lord's aren't as chop chop as AoBF khorne lords, but they are still a lord and can be built nasty tough or dirt cheap. What I wish is that you could have a nurgle sorcerer or slaaneshi sorc to unlock plague-O's and noise marines, because their psychic powers are preeeeety boss if you ask me.

Tommy Lee Jones, what do you reckon of the new Slaaneshi/nurgle psychic powers?


Even the big T.L Jones knows whats up

 Lansirill wrote:
I had worked out some sloppy expected value mathhammer and if I recall correctly if you run 5 man PM squads with double plasma vs 10 man CSM, MoN squads with double plasma you get the same durability (as long as FNP isn't ignored) with more firepower from the PMs than CSM point for point. If you run larger squads of PMs then you can shift the balance from offense to defense and, for the same points, get similar firepower in the two squads with PMs having higher durability.

Considering that a CSM with MoN costs 16 points vs 24 for a Plague Marine (so 2/3rds the price) the points and is 2/3rds as durable (due to FNP) Plague Marines are almost always going to come out ahead. The exceptions come from when you're unable/unwilling to take a Nurgle lord, are using CSM as allies (so that you can't make PMs troops), and potentially against some I3 and I4 units in close combat. Plague marines really are the chicken de China, the Chinese chicken.

You can have allied Troop Plague Marines, if the allied HQ is a Nurgle Lord or Typhus.

I would take them in combo with typhus and plague zombies. They are still a great unit and so versatile with 2 plasmaguns, and worth their points, but I think they are just too elite and costly to be relying on more than 2 squads. The plague zombies do the job of sitting on objectives and confounding the enemy with too many bodies much better. Plague Marines are great as midfield-advancing shock troops.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Lansirill wrote:
I had worked out some sloppy expected value mathhammer and if I recall correctly if you run 5 man PM squads with double plasma vs 10 man CSM, MoN squads with double plasma you get the same durability (as long as FNP isn't ignored) with more firepower from the PMs than CSM point for point. If you run larger squads of PMs then you can shift the balance from offense to defense and, for the same points, get similar firepower in the two squads with PMs having higher durability.

Considering that a CSM with MoN costs 16 points vs 24 for a Plague Marine (so 2/3rds the price) the points and is 2/3rds as durable (due to FNP) Plague Marines are almost always going to come out ahead. The exceptions come from when you're unable/unwilling to take a Nurgle lord, are using CSM as allies (so that you can't make PMs troops), and potentially against some I3 and I4 units in close combat. Plague marines really are the chicken de China, the Chinese chicken.

You can have allied Troop Plague Marines, if the allied HQ is a Nurgle Lord or Typhus.

No you can't, read the box out for the Chaos Lord.

Typhus is not a lord he is a sorc so no plagies do not become troops however zombies are and can hold objectives and the snp doesnt really mess with them as they cant shoot anyway however if you ally and epidmus and same nurglings with a sslp it makes a nasty combo

 muagenreaper wrote:
Typhus is not a lord he is a sorc so no plagies do not become troops however zombies are and can hold objectives and the snp doesnt really mess with them as they cant shoot anyway however if you ally and epidmus and same nurglings with a sslp it makes a nasty combo

Typhus has a little blurb in his unit entry that says plague marines count as troops.

Epidemius is a good combo with the plague marines and nurgle oblits, but not with the zombies since they are not very killy and don't technically have the mark of nurgle so they don't benefit from the tally. Plus people will find ways to just take him out, I personally wouldn't build a list around it.

 muagenreaper wrote:
Typhus is not a lord he is a sorc so no plagies do not become troops...

LOLWUT?

Typhus has a little blurb in his unit entry that says plague marines count as troops.

Epidemius is a good combo with the plague marines and nurgle oblits, but not with the zombies since they are not very killy and don't technically have the mark of nurgle so they don't benefit from the tally. Plus people will find ways to just take him out, I personally wouldn't build a list around it.

A couple things for this thread.

Blight grenades are the bomb. Plague Marines have Blight grenades AND Krak grenades. The initial point that Plagues don't have Frag grenades is invalid, as a Frag grenade is an offensive grenade, and Blight grenades count as both offensive and defensive grenades. And the -1 attack from being assaulted makes up for the I3 on Plagues.

The reroll from poisoned weapons is awesome. As is the fact that every Plague Marine has an off hand weapon (pistol), as well as that bolter for shooting 24 when they move or when charged. I very rarely charge with Plagues. Much better to rapid fire on my turn, then rapid fire as the charge response, as they won't get the +1 attack for charging, and I won't attack ahead of them anyway. More shooting for me.

No contest, Plague Marines are better than Nurgle CSM. In any flavor. The only drawback in my viewpoint is already shared by standard CSM, and that is above 10 marines, no more special weapons. It would be a great flavorful move to get another special weapon at 14 Plague Marines. However, they're already rock hard, and when supplemented by units of 5 T6 Nurgle Spawn that can effectively tarpit just about anything on the board that I want slowed down, a Plague Marine army is tough to deal with. You should have 1 Plague Marine squad for each 500 points you're playing. My choice is squads of 7 with 2 plasma guns and either a power axe/plasma pistol or power fist. My champion is already going second, might as well have +Str.

Now, for making them better, a Sorcerer with Nurgle powers and Biomancy really enhances Plagues. Crappy that the powers are now random, but with a level 3 Sorcerer, you can get something to make your Plague army better usually.

Also, talking about taking a lord for Plague troops, if you aren't going to put him Terminator armor, put him on a palanquin to make him survivable, give him a power axe for AP2 removal, and the Burning Brand, so that there's a 12"+ zone around him of AP3 shooting that is a 50/50 removal of Marine Equiv. armor. I personally would plus that Plague squad up to 10 or more, just for supplemental wounds, makes them a very solid core to your army. But, its foot slogging, so initial placement is important.

Plague marines are still the best CSM troop.

MSU they provide access to a lot of firepower for little points, and they don't suffer as bad as most MSU when it comes to incoming fire.

The problem being now you pay a nurgle lord tax to unlock them, and nurgle lords aren't that competitive. Its funny that once a plague marine becomes a lord he loses access to his feel no pain, grenades, plague knife...

Kevlar wrote:
Plague marines are still the best CSM troop.

MSU they provide access to a lot of firepower for little points, and they don't suffer as bad as most MSU when it comes to incoming fire.

The problem being now you pay a nurgle lord tax to unlock them, and nurgle lords aren't that competitive. Its funny that once a plague marine becomes a lord he loses access to his feel no pain, grenades, plague knife...

Yeah love the consistency of this codex; in addition to the above slaaneshi lords lose access sonic weapons & doom siren, and tzeentchian lords lose inferno bolts and can't possibly be a psyker. Also only khorne & tzeentch get their own special artifacts, tough luck other gods. Rant over, sorry to hijack : )

It's the little things that make the difference. The unit selection in this dex is really nuanced. It means you have to look a little bit deeper and that there are some outlier things the chaos dex just does do well, because it focuses so much on MEQ guys and spammed str 7-8 hits, but there are benefits there.

What is worth looking at for the berserkers is their torrenting ability. Now they may not have the sheer numerical force of an extra tick in the attacks section or something like +2 or rending we've been trained to look for in our assault units, but they do come with a sizable weight of attacks on their sturdy frame and the attacks are slightly better than the expectation. 2 instances of .16 better in fact. At the end of the day what hurts berserkers, and much of CSM is that rhinos no longer really benefit assault troops anymore. They are much more helpful on rapidfire units. But it isn't a deathstar or a real combat unit. It's a countercharge unit or a forward grinding objective holder. Fearless marine profiles and lots of attacks aren't bad! Infiltrate them!

9 berserkers making it into combat (not counting any champion) are bringing 36 attacks. In most cases 23.7 of those are hitting. If you got the charge in most cases that makes for 15.6 wounds. That's a couple missed saves no matter how you look at it. Shame about the lack of a bolter but 19 point fearless marines aren't exactly horrible. Especially given what they do to thunder hammer terminators.

Plagues seem like they are still a great way to do MSU. 7 man squads might work. Doesn't really discount CSM squads for the double special weapon purpose though, but as I said, I tend to be a big fan of survivable scoring fearless MEQ profiles. If you want CSM squads, either buy them with volume in mind (big squads or lots of units), or something besides being rapidfire dudes.

If I had to make a case for nurgle CSM, my first point is that they are a buttload cheaper, and they can go to ground. 5 nurgle CSM can sunbathe in cover all game. Also the volume of 16-17 point marines you could be fielding with 5 toughness could be really frustrating for someone to play against. Despite all the special weapons people build their unit's around, bolters end up doing a lot of work in a game and 5 toughness reduces that significantly.

I usually jump to Noise Marines just being better than slaanesh CSM but there may be a use to them. 5 initiative is often as influential as counter attack on a rapid fire unit, and plasma and melta are really something any list could do more with if you find you already have enough AP3 flamers. I've been seeing lists with Slaanesh CSM and Fabulous Bill and the icon in a big blobs of 20. I'm sort of a fan of keeping that unit as cheap as possible and playing it like orks, but 20 FNP 5S 5I fearless marines seems pretty decent.

Noise marines are just plain decent as an assault unit, grey hunter clone style unit, hard forward scoring or just as an MSU upgrade to a rhino so it can shoot AP3 flamer out it's top and score in the last turn.

Plauges seem like a really good option right now though. I'm trying to figure out an appropriate other scoring unit to run alongside them. Something heavier and able to safely move behind lines.

Nurgle CSM can go to ground, but also are not fearless and will be taking tests. If you really need some CSM's to sit in your back field then yes, however you will probably need to shell out for Volw or the fearless icon.

Cultists do the same job, but better. For 200 points you can buy four cultist units.... they will be taking 3+ saves in area terrain and 2+ behind aegis if you go to ground, and if you do go to ground, you don't lose anything by not being able to move or fire next turn.

Even if the enemy has a unit that can effectively shoot and take that out in one turn (thunderfire cannon?) they still can only shoot one per turn, they are not guaranteed to be successful.

And zombies are that much better because all you need to do is hide them out of LOS, where only barrage can hurt them, and barrage scatters all over the place. All you need is that one zombie left to have a scoring unit, and he wont run away.