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In 6th edition I have always outflanked my Vendettas/Valkyries, it has been pointed out this may be the wrong interpretation of the rules since the new IG FAQ came out.
So to those with a better grasp of the rules please explain if a Vendetta/Valkyrie could outflank pre- IG FAQ and can it outflank post- IG FAQ .


IG Codex(pg 56) Valkyrie Assault Carrier Special Rules; Deep Strike, Scout

Rulebook (pg 41) Last line of Scout Special Rule "This also confers the Outflank special rule"

But with the IG FAQ worded as follows which is the argument against outflank for Vendetta/Valkyrie

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or
Vendetta? Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56)
A: It has no effect.

I'd say the Outflank still applies.
We're not told to remove the rule completely (as some errata do), just that the Scout has no effect.
Scout rules don't work with the flyer reserve rules, so it makes sense that it has no effect.
The rule isn't removed, so could still apply outflank, just the Scout rule itself has no effect.

while the scouts rule does nothing. it still grants outflank which does.

the answer to the FAQ question does not remove the scouts rule's ability to grant outflank to the unit, just that a valk/vendetta cant use scouts to come onto board turn one.

Paitryn wrote:
while the scouts rule does nothing. it still grants outflank which does.

the answer to the FAQ question does not remove the scouts rule's ability to grant outflank to the unit, just that a valk/vendetta cant use scouts to come onto board turn one.

Actually IIRC it says exactly as it does nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or
Vendetta? Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56)
A: It has no effect.

Gaining outflank would sadly be an effect.

and veterans can embark and subsequently outflank on a vendetta?

I think if they'd wanted to remove the Scout rule from the Vendetta they would have done so. The purpose of the FAQ is to simply clarify that since the Vendetta must start in Reserves, it can't deploy in Turn 1, and therefore can't make the usual 6" re-deploy move.

The Vendetta still has the Outflank USR courtesy of Scout. It probably would have been easier to make an Amendment such as "replace the Scout USR with the Outflank USR".

Snapshot wrote:
I think if they'd wanted to remove the Scout rule from the Vendetta they would have done so. The purpose of the FAQ is to simply clarify that since the Vendetta must start in Reserves, it can't deploy in Turn 1, and therefore can't make the usual 6" re-deploy move.

The Vendetta still has the Outflank USR courtesy of Scout. It probably would have been easier to make an Amendment such as "replace the Scout USR with the Outflank USR".

As much as I'd like to agree with you with the questions as asked it does nothing.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
I think if they'd wanted to remove the Scout rule from the Vendetta they would have done so. The purpose of the FAQ is to simply clarify that since the Vendetta must start in Reserves, it can't deploy in Turn 1, and therefore can't make the usual 6" re-deploy move.

The Vendetta still has the Outflank USR courtesy of Scout. It probably would have been easier to make an Amendment such as "replace the Scout USR with the Outflank USR".

As much as I'd like to agree with you with the questions as asked it does nothing.

Then why not just remove the rule? There are several examples of other rules removed from units because they serve no purpose.

 grendel083 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
I think if they'd wanted to remove the Scout rule from the Vendetta they would have done so. The purpose of the FAQ is to simply clarify that since the Vendetta must start in Reserves, it can't deploy in Turn 1, and therefore can't make the usual 6" re-deploy move.

The Vendetta still has the Outflank USR courtesy of Scout. It probably would have been easier to make an Amendment such as "replace the Scout USR with the Outflank USR".

As much as I'd like to agree with you with the questions as asked it does nothing.

Then why not just remove the rule? There are several examples of other rules removed from units because they serve no purpose.

And still other rules that do nothing that are still in place

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
I think if they'd wanted to remove the Scout rule from the Vendetta they would have done so. The purpose of the FAQ is to simply clarify that since the Vendetta must start in Reserves, it can't deploy in Turn 1, and therefore can't make the usual 6" re-deploy move.

The Vendetta still has the Outflank USR courtesy of Scout. It probably would have been easier to make an Amendment such as "replace the Scout USR with the Outflank USR".

As much as I'd like to agree with you with the questions as asked it does nothing.

Yeah, I could be wrong, but it just seems that the context of the FAQ question is about the core capabilities of Scouting with the 6" deployment during Turn 1. It's not at all clear to me that they mean the answer to also deny Outflank. We need a FAQFAQ I guess.

I was told the FAQ in other languages clarifies this dispute better. Can anyone from France/Germany/etc confirm this?

The FAQ says it has no effect so it can no longer outflank. It's not the same as saying it can no longer make a scout move but still outflank.

grendel083 wrote:I'd say the Outflank still applies.
We're not told to remove the rule completely (as some errata do), just that the Scout has no effect.
Scout rules don't work with the flyer reserve rules, so it makes sense that it has no effect.
The rule isn't removed, so could still apply outflank, just the Scout rule itself has no effect.

Paitryn wrote:while the scouts rule does nothing. it still grants outflank which does.

the answer to the FAQ question does not remove the scouts rule's ability to grant outflank to the unit, just that a valk/vendetta cant use scouts to come onto board turn one.

Snapshot wrote:I think if they'd wanted to remove the Scout rule from the Vendetta they would have done so. The purpose of the FAQ is to simply clarify that since the Vendetta must start in Reserves, it can't deploy in Turn 1, and therefore can't make the usual 6" re-deploy move.

The Vendetta still has the Outflank USR courtesy of Scout. It probably would have been easier to make an Amendment such as "replace the Scout USR with the Outflank USR".

Please explain why the section of the Scout rule that provides Outflank is not an "effect" but the section that allows you to make Scout moves is. If the Outflank rule said "Units with the Scouts rule also have this rule" I would agree with you, but I don't see any rules-based justification for declaring that one part of a rule is an "effect" and another part isn't, and thus that when a rule has "no effect" some of it still counts.

 amrogers3 wrote:
I was told the FAQ in other languages clarifies this dispute better. Can anyone from France/Germany/etc confirm this?

You mean like when the new Chaos Daemons FAQ came out; and they told us that Flamers/Screamers had no invul save?

No effect is fairly easy to discern. If it did something that would be an effect. If it does nothing it has no effect.

 Hesh_Tank_On wrote:
In 6th edition I have always outflanked my Vendettas/Valkyries, it has been pointed out this may be the wrong interpretation of the rules since the new IG FAQ came out.
So to those with a better grasp of the rules please explain if a Vendetta/Valkyrie could outflank pre- IG FAQ and can it outflank post- IG FAQ .


IG Codex(pg 56) Valkyrie Assault Carrier Special Rules; Deep Strike, Scout

Rulebook (pg 41) Last line of Scout Special Rule "This also confers the Outflank special rule"

But with the IG FAQ worded as follows which is the argument against outflank for Vendetta/Valkyrie

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or
Vendetta? Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56)
A: It has no effect.

I'd say that you still have the Special Rule Scout, but that it has no effect since it is being applied to a Flyer. The Outflank comes with the Scout ability.

The FAQ question is asking what it can do on turn 1. Outflank doesn't happen on turn 1. I'd say it can still outflank since the FAQ doesn't address anything happening on turn 2+

Kevlar wrote:
The FAQ question is asking what it can do on turn 1. Outflank doesn't happen on turn 1. I'd say it can still outflank since the FAQ doesn't address anything happening on turn 2+

Considering there is 2 different questions in the FAQ this isn't true.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or
Vendetta?

Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56)

A: It has no effect.

It may not have been the intention, but as it is I also read it like that. The first question is answered (it has no effect), so the second one, which goes into more detail, does not need to be. For what it's worth, if you were to translate the ruling from the German FAQ, it would be 'The special rule Scout has no effect whatsoever'.

cheers

 amrogers3 wrote:
I was told the FAQ in other languages clarifies this dispute better. Can anyone from France/Germany/etc confirm this?

This is never an approach that holds water. GW's design team work in English, what the products get translated to mean is down to some translators in house or some external company.
English is the gold standard for working out the rules, if you are using a Frech/German codex and have an issue you can look to the english to get a clarification but not the other way round. You don't look at a reflection on a lake to get a better look of a mountain.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


A: It has no effect.

[On turn one...]

Which is how the question is phrased.

If they totally got rid of the scout rule they would have just used an errata.

Kevlar wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


A: It has no effect.

[On turn one...]

Which is how the question is phrased.

If they totally got rid of the scout rule they would have just used an errata.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or
Vendetta?

Funny that it starts with this. Nothing about turn 1. Even has proper sentence structure, a massive accomplishment for GW all in all.

Than we get the second sentence, again GW's grammar here is quite good.

Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56)


Two seperate questions with one set answer.

A: It has no effect.


If it gives them outflank it has an effect. The FAQ states it has none.

By the context of both those questions they are referencing the redeployment part of the Scout rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
By the context of both those questions they are referencing the redeployment part of the Scout rule.

I don't see it that way.

By context; two questions asked; one answer given.

Apply answer to both questions.

The first question only has a clear context in relation to the second question.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or Vendetta? (Not much context here, but the second question must be related as they both have the same answer).

Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56) (And there is your context about the scout move portion of the rule).

 DeathReaper wrote:
The first question only has a clear context in relation to the second question.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or Vendetta? (Not much context here, but the second question must be related as they both have the same answer).
Plenty of context to the answer, no effect.
Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56) (And there is your context about the scout move portion of the rule).

How much context does the answer have to just the second question?
Significantly less than the first.



Either way you look at it, RAW Scout rule has no effect. Otherwise you'd be going against the FAQ.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The first question only has a clear context in relation to the second question.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or Vendetta? (Not much context here, but the second question must be related as they both have the same answer).
Plenty of context to the answer, no effect.
Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56) (And there is your context about the scout move portion of the rule).

How much context does the answer have to just the second question?
Significantly less than the first.



Either way you look at it, RAW Scout rule has no effect. Otherwise you'd be going against the FAQ.

You dont get many games do you? The intent of the FAQ is clear and dry that they are talking about using the scout special rule to forgo the automatic reserve for fliers. In the book it doesn't say my models cant be placed on the bottom side of the board but that they just have to be on the board... does that mean I can place them underneath the board and claim my objectives as long as its less then 3" thick? Abbadon has every mark of chaos but also has different marks of chaos does that mean the leader of chaos cant join marked units? In a csm army it doesnt specify when i decide whether or not a unit of cultist is plague zombies... so turn 4 they are now plague zombies.... See how stupid this can get if you look too much into it?

Take note these are meant to be radical as I view the argument as radical....

As for your argument:
When a rule is no longer valid or needed it is entered in the errata, or amendment section of an faq. If their is a specific question regarding a rule it is listed in the faq portion of an faq. If they wanted the vendetta to have no more effect such as Tau: Target Priority Test etc... they would of listed it in the proper section the one that removes or adds rules not the one that clarifies them.

 Tomb King wrote:


You dont get many games do you?

You don't have much respect do you?

This is a forum in which we're currently discussing RAW or sometimes HIWPI (of which should be noted)

As to answer your question, no I don't get in many games. Than again my work schedule prevents it. Even than though I get in 3+ a week. Why?

Simply because I don't make assumptions about other people.

When a rule is no longer valid or needed it is entered in the errata, or amendment section of an faq. If their is a specific question regarding a rule it is listed in the faq portion of an faq. If they wanted the vendetta to have no more effect such as Tau: Target Priority Test etc... they would of listed it in the proper section the one that removes or adds rules not the one that clarifies them.

It only took what? Most of 5th ed. to errata Target Priority?

Regardless if you wish to allow the Vendetta to outflank that is simply (HIWPI)

Allowing it to outflank goes directly against the FAQ.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:


You dont get many games do you?

You don't have much respect do you?

This is a forum in which we're currently discussing RAW or sometimes HIWPI (of which should be noted)

As to answer your question, no I don't get in many games. Than again my work schedule prevents it. Even than though I get in 3+ a week. Why?

Simply because I don't make assumptions about other people.

When a rule is no longer valid or needed it is entered in the errata, or amendment section of an faq. If their is a specific question regarding a rule it is listed in the faq portion of an faq. If they wanted the vendetta to have no more effect such as Tau: Target Priority Test etc... they would of listed it in the proper section the one that removes or adds rules not the one that clarifies them.

It only took what? Most of 5th ed. to errata Target Priority?

Regardless if you wish to allow the Vendetta to outflank that is simply (HIWPI)

Allowing it to outflank goes directly against the FAQ.

I guess we can save 10 pages and agree to disagree! As for the reason I made my comment about games is the jump you made in the intention of the faq(filling in any vagueness with what you wanted it to be) seemed to favor a certain play style. I have respect... lol it kind of comes with my career selection. I suppose the only reason there is in argument on it is because it wasn't clarified enough. Though the intent of the faq is obviously listing what it references to when it states "it has no effect!" How you interpret that is your own choice but you might find the majority disagreeing with your assessment.

 Tomb King wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:


You dont get many games do you?

You don't have much respect do you?

This is a forum in which we're currently discussing RAW or sometimes HIWPI (of which should be noted)

As to answer your question, no I don't get in many games. Than again my work schedule prevents it. Even than though I get in 3+ a week. Why?

Simply because I don't make assumptions about other people.

When a rule is no longer valid or needed it is entered in the errata, or amendment section of an faq. If their is a specific question regarding a rule it is listed in the faq portion of an faq. If they wanted the vendetta to have no more effect such as Tau: Target Priority Test etc... they would of listed it in the proper section the one that removes or adds rules not the one that clarifies them.

It only took what? Most of 5th ed. to errata Target Priority?

Regardless if you wish to allow the Vendetta to outflank that is simply (HIWPI)

Allowing it to outflank goes directly against the FAQ.

I guess we can save 10 pages and agree to disagree! As for the reason I made my comment about games is the jump you made in the intention of the faq(filling in any vagueness with what you wanted it to be) seemed to favor a certain play style. I have respect... lol it kind of comes with my career selection. I suppose the only reason there is in argument on it is because it wasn't clarified enough. Though the intent of the faq is obviously listing what it references to when it states "it has no effect!" How you interpret that is your own choice but you might find the majority disagreeing with your assessment.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or Vendetta?

If they had A) not used the word effect here, or B) been clear that they only wanted it to apply to the scout move. I'd gladly agree, or better yet there would be no arguement.

Considering the answer states it has no effect, you also have to look at the primary question.

Yes though, I'll play it my way and you can play it yours.

P.S. : It was just a lil jab for a jab (no harm, no foul)

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:


You dont get many games do you?

You don't have much respect do you?

This is a forum in which we're currently discussing RAW or sometimes HIWPI (of which should be noted)

As to answer your question, no I don't get in many games. Than again my work schedule prevents it. Even than though I get in 3+ a week. Why?

Simply because I don't make assumptions about other people.

When a rule is no longer valid or needed it is entered in the errata, or amendment section of an faq. If their is a specific question regarding a rule it is listed in the faq portion of an faq. If they wanted the vendetta to have no more effect such as Tau: Target Priority Test etc... they would of listed it in the proper section the one that removes or adds rules not the one that clarifies them.

It only took what? Most of 5th ed. to errata Target Priority?

Regardless if you wish to allow the Vendetta to outflank that is simply (HIWPI)

Allowing it to outflank goes directly against the FAQ.

I guess we can save 10 pages and agree to disagree! As for the reason I made my comment about games is the jump you made in the intention of the faq(filling in any vagueness with what you wanted it to be) seemed to favor a certain play style. I have respect... lol it kind of comes with my career selection. I suppose the only reason there is in argument on it is because it wasn't clarified enough. Though the intent of the faq is obviously listing what it references to when it states "it has no effect!" How you interpret that is your own choice but you might find the majority disagreeing with your assessment.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or Vendetta?

If they had A) not used the word effect here, or B) been clear that they only wanted it to apply to the scout move. I'd gladly agree, or better yet there would be no arguement.

Considering the answer states it has no effect, you also have to look at the primary question.

Yes though, I'll play it my way and you can play it yours.

P.S. : It was just a lil jab for a jab (no harm, no foul)

How many of the faq's would result in a different outcome if you only applied half the question?

As for the jab its fine im used to it.