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Sorry, you are right, dp's don't take marks, my bad also they can't get a 4++ because of upgrades, that was because of te mark of Tzeench which it turns out you can't take. I'm still in the last rule book in my head, though that said they are still damn tough.
Also stealing isn't part of my moral code, so im not going i steal a codex no matter how muchgw may deserve it, neither is dishing out beatings over the keyboard where I couldn't in real life, elspecially to people I have never met. Maybe set out to make the world a better place next time you sit down to go onto the computer, or just read a chaos space marine rulebook first.
It may actually worth using that pea sized brain of yours to tell me wether you think that an iron armed dp could take a smarm lord, and even if the dp didn't get iron arm they could still potentially enfeeble the swarm lord, gain endurance, extra initiative and fleet, regenerate wounds with life leech or cause a wound (about 50/50 chance for that) with haemorrhage. Doesn't seem that bad if the dp doesn't get iron arm to me...
Again I think that it's much more rewarding and useful to make someone happy, so give it a try, there is always time for a first.

Nemesor wrote:
It may actually worth using that pea sized brain of yours to tell me wether you think that an iron armed dp could take a smarm lord, and even if the dp didn't get iron arm they could still potentially enfeeble the swarm lord, gain endurance, extra initiative and fleet, regenerate wounds with life leech or cause a wound (about 50/50 chance for that) with haemorrhage. Doesn't seem that bad if the dp doesn't get iron arm to me...

Not sure how you figure a 50/50 chance:
Leadership 9 psychic test on 3d6 (Haemorrhage is 12" range, so always within Shadow of the Warp): 37.5% to pass.
5+ Deny the Witch from the Swarmlord, as he is a Mastery level 2 Psyker: 66.6% chance to pass.
Toughness test on T6: 16.6% chance to pass.
37.5% * 66.6% * 16.6% = 4.2% chance to cause a wound with Haemorrhage. Seeing that casting a psychic power when under the influence of Shadow in the Warp gives you a 14.8% to get a Perils of the Warp, you're more likely to wound yourself than your target. :p

And close combat with a Daemon Prince against a Swarmlord is probably also not a good idea. Your only advantages are your higher initiative and increased mobility, as he only has to get 1 wound through to kill you unless you happen to have Iron Arm. And again, even if you are lucky enough to roll for Iron Arm, if you want to use Iron Arm when within 12" of the Swarmlord, you only have a 37.5% chance to get it off.

Redemption wrote:5+ Deny the Witch from the Swarmlord, as he is a Mastery level 2 Psyker: 66.6% chance to pass.

Whereas your overall point was correct, this is quite the brainfart. 66.6% chance to fail a 5+, not pass it.

Ah, meant bypass.

Eldercaveman wrote:
I just think kill points is always going to be an uphill struggle for a Nid list, far to many soft kill points. Other than that, great report as always!

Sure, spawning gants could be a crux in VP games, but I don't think nids have it that bad. Usually, the big beasties, especially when enhanced by psychic powers, are quite durable.

 Toban wrote:
Nice batrep as usual JY2 and finally a concrete test of this famous tally list.

May however ask you a couple of things about your nids?

- does you maybe had forget the third troop of Gants? I must had missed them during the battle..

- does you consider Adrenal Glands on Tervigons (and consequentely on Gants) something really not important? I do think that some reroll would generally help in assault, even if in this particular batrep not particulary useful of course.

- what are your general thought about the Doom after some batrep? In particular, considering his potential effectiveness, does is really worth to exchange Cataclysm for a Biomancy power on him?

- Do you eventually return on more "competitive" (talking about synergy) Zoanthropes unit?

They were hiding in the opposite corner in area terrain. Chaos was too far away to ever really threaten them. I just didn't bother to take pictures of them.

While I've used AG before, I normally don't run them because I normally don't play my tervigons too aggressively (this was back in 5th). Now in 6th, with Smash attacks, tervigons don't really need them. As for the termagants, I usually use them as tarpitting units, hopefully to tie up units until my big guys can get there to finish them off. To me, AG is a secondary option. I get them if I have spare points only.

I like the Doom a lot. As with zoans, the Doom himself is also a force-multiplying unit. While he isn't as psychically strong as the zoans, he is much, much more of an offensive threat and requires much more of the opponent's "attention" to deal with him. That means your big guys will survive a lot longer. As a bonus, he will usually give me Linebreaker because I try to drop him in my opponents deployment zone if possible. He's also a great objective-contester. I think he' going to be a permanent fixture in my bug list. Sorry, zoans, but I just like him too much.

Nemesor wrote:
Yessss! I called it! New. Question what the swarm lords starlike and special rules? I can't find it anywhere.

Good call.

He's a very good character. He's a stud in combat and he's also a force-multiplier for the tyranid army with his better-than-normal Synapse, reserves bonuses, ability to cast 2 psychic powers (he can get 4 powers!) and his ability to give friendly units either Furious Charge or Prefered Enemy. With 4 biomancy powers, he's a combat stud if he gets Iron Arm and/or Endurance and Warp Speed. Finally, his attacks cause Instant Death and he forces you to re-roll successful Invulns. You really don't want to mess with him.

Nemesor wrote:
Also why don't people iron arm chaos lords and daemon princes? Surely an iron armed deamon prince will eat pretty much anything alive with i8-9 depending on mark and both toughness 8-9 depending on the mark and strength 9 assuming you are lucky, or iron arm with multiple units? Plus a 3+ 4++ (upgrades) and 4 wounds that seems pretty like a pretty good match for about anything out to me, unless im missing something huge, which I probably am.
So I don't have the tyranid codex, I'm not rich enough to buy every single codex, and we only have 1 bug player and he keeps his book close to him because we hae some pretty dodgey people where I live, or he just is an ass and doesn't want people to know.

He's hugely expensive and actually quite easy to kill. To try to get Iron Arm, you practically have to make him a Lvl 3 psyker. Now you're talking about a 300+ pt monster who isn't even guaranteed to get the powers he wants. Charge any monstrous creature and get smashed to death.

 Redemption wrote:
Yeah, the killing your own units to get the Tally up seems gamy at best. Add to that the question if units not chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons should even get to benefit from the Tally rule in the first place (I would be far from surprised if that gets FAQed), and the army list feels like its entire right of existence is to abuse loopholes in the rules.

The 'Nids did get some bad luck in the beginning; I'm sure that if the 2 Flyrants were Swooping around empowered with Psychic powers instead of being lost by a seized Initiative and a incorrect Overwatch, the game could have gone very different.

But very nice report, I always enjoy reading yours jy2! Looking forward to more 'Nid reports in general, as these are still pretty uncommon.

Nemesor wrote:
Yessss! I called it! New. Question what the swarm lords starlike and special rules? I can't find it anywhere.

Statline is on the official GW site:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440179a&prodId=prod1460211a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

Thanks!

CSM units do benefit from the Tally. The Tally affects all things Nurgle, friend of foe. So if you play another Nurgle opponent, his army would actually benefit from your Tally and add to it as well!

There is a FAQ that came out. That FAQ pertains to the ignoring armour saves part and says that the Tally affects both close combat and shooting attacks. Since when do Nurgle daemons have shooting attacks? That FAQ was directed at their CSM counter-parts.

 jy2 wrote:
Since when do Nurgle daemons have shooting attacks?

A Great Unclean One, Ku'Gath, Herald of Nurgle, Nurgle Daemon Prince with Breath of Chaos or Daemonic Gaze I suppose? But GW seems pretty adamant about cross-codex buffs between allies. As I said, I would be far from surprised if they changed it with a FAQ or the new Chaos Daemons codex coming soon.

 Redemption wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Since when do Nurgle daemons have shooting attacks?

A Great Unclean One, Ku'Gath, Herald of Nurgle, Nurgle Daemon Prince with Breath of Chaos or Daemonic Gaze I suppose? But GW seems pretty adamant about cross-codex buffs between allies. As I said, I would be far from surprised if they changed it with a FAQ or the new Chaos Daemons codex coming soon.

Well, let's put it this way. 2 FAQ's have already come out. They nerfed Fateweaver's protection in regards to his CSM allies. But they left Epidemius' Tally alone....

But who knows what will happen when the next daemon codex comes out.

Considering it worked for plague marines when they were on opposite sides of the table, no reason it shouldnt work when they are on the same side.....

Love your nid list, though I'm not always psyched about the swarmlord and I like to see more gargoyle and gant boots on the ground at the start of the game!

At this point level, and thinking about ditching Typhus and the zombies, have you thought about a forgefiend in the backfield, 8 S8 shots and a blast marker each turn are ok, especially if you're going to run the ADL.

Also, why move your oblits forward, knowing his army was going to have to come to you? I don't think you got enough shooting out of your "gunline" army, which PMs are. They're great at accepting charges, but it doesn't seem like you got all the shooting out of them you should have, especially as you knew his army was going to have to come to you across an amazingly open board. No reason to advance and make his game easier.

I also agree that a helldrake coming on would have been nice, though not super effective if you look for it to go against the Flyrants.

Nice report, and thanks!

you dont even have the nurgle herald what the has the world come 2

 Lucre wrote:
Love your nid list, though I'm not always psyched about the swarmlord and I like to see more gargoyle and gant boots on the ground at the start of the game!

I try to bring a hybrid list with both big and small guys. The big guys are so expensive, however, that I have to limit the small guys. Good thing though in this battle. The small ones just makes the Tally go up faster.

Salacious Greed wrote:
At this point level, and thinking about ditching Typhus and the zombies, have you thought about a forgefiend in the backfield, 8 S8 shots and a blast marker each turn are ok, especially if you're going to run the ADL.

Also, why move your oblits forward, knowing his army was going to have to come to you? I don't think you got enough shooting out of your "gunline" army, which PMs are. They're great at accepting charges, but it doesn't seem like you got all the shooting out of them you should have, especially as you knew his army was going to have to come to you across an amazingly open board. No reason to advance and make his game easier.

I also agree that a helldrake coming on would have been nice, though not super effective if you look for it to go against the Flyrants.

Nice report, and thanks!

I was actually thinking about running a maulerfiend (still am). It's such a cool model. However, it's hard to justify the forgefiend over the oblits/havocs. Typhus and zombies are necessary to make this list work, but if I were to run another Chaos build, I probably will try something else.

Oblits can still hurt the big guys in assault with their powerfists. I also need to get them into better firing angles because a savvy opponent will use terrain to limit your LOS. Also, I wanted to get them into assault cannon range of the gargoyles to help increase the Tally.

tonyneedspills23 wrote:
you dont even have the nurgle herald what the has the world come 2

Still working on him. You may well see him in my next battle report (or if not, then the one after that).

Thanks for the report, Jy2!

A tactical note for future battles that might or might not help the next time you get "Seized" --

Monstrous creatures now benefit from area terrain 5+ cover saves! As with any edition change, the old habits sometimes die hard and monstrous creatures not getting saves from craters and forests is a thing of the past. What's even better, is now that Move through cover additionally allows you to automatically pass dangerous terrain, there is no penalty for winged or flying monstrous creatures to deploy in, or jump/swoop out of, area terrain!

I'm not saying that you would have definitely survived from (i'm guessing 6) lascannons on turn 1 but a 5+ could certainly have helped. Just a friendly tip from a fellow tyranid hive.

Good to know! I think I may have to re-read the 6E BRB again. Easy to miss some of the more minute changes.

Deploying them out in the open and not taking into account having the initiative stolen was definitely a mistake. That 5+ cover could have made a difference.

Thanks for the tip!

That was an epic match and for me an entirely unexpected result, those nids are just so hard!

BaconUprising wrote:
That was an epic match and for me an entirely unexpected result, those nids are just so hard!

Yeah, they are better than what many people think. Currently, there is a notion going around on the interwebz that nids are one of the weakest armies currently. Heh, I'd like to see when those poor folks play against a tyranid player who knows what he is doing. They are going to be in for a rude awakening.

 Redemption wrote:

Nemesor wrote:
It may actually worth using that pea sized brain of yours to tell me wether you think that an iron armed dp could take a smarm lord, and even if the dp didn't get iron arm they could still potentially enfeeble the swarm lord, gain endurance, extra initiative and fleet, regenerate wounds with life leech or cause a wound (about 50/50 chance for that) with haemorrhage. Doesn't seem that bad if the dp doesn't get iron arm to me...

Not sure how you figure a 50/50 chance:
Leadership 9 psychic test on 3d6 (Haemorrhage is 12" range, so always within Shadow of the Warp): 37.5% to pass.
5+ Deny the Witch from the Swarmlord, as he is a Mastery level 2 Psyker: 66.6% chance to pass.
Toughness test on T6: 16.6% chance to pass.
37.5% * 66.6% * 16.6% = 4.2% chance to cause a wound with Haemorrhage. Seeing that casting a psychic power when under the influence of Shadow in the Warp gives you a 14.8% to get a Perils of the Warp, you're more likely to wound yourself than your target. :p

And close combat with a Daemon Prince against a Swarmlord is probably also not a good idea. Your only advantages are your higher initiative and increased mobility, as he only has to get 1 wound through to kill you unless you happen to have Iron Arm. And again, even if you are lucky enough to roll for Iron Arm, if you want to use Iron Arm when within 12" of the Swarmlord, you only have a 37.5% chance to get it off.

\

Sorry, that was a grammatical fail, I meant that the hemorrhage could be used on something like a gaunt or ripper swarm lol. My bad, I was just saying that even if you didn't get iron arm you could still still get some good stuff from the biomancy powers.

Nemesor wrote:
Sorry, that was a grammatical fail, I meant that the hemorrhage could be used on something like a gaunt or ripper swarm lol. My bad, I was just saying that even if you didn't get iron arm you could still still get some good stuff from the biomancy powers.

My friend Janthkin showed me how potentially devastating Hemorrhage could be under the right circumstances (i.e. after casting a couple of Enfeebles on the target unit to drop their Toughness to 2 or 1).

BaconUprising wrote:
Agreed, a decent nid player will swamp and overrun his opponent and end up dominating. In my opinion they are hard to play well but when you can they are up there with GK's and crons.

They still have some bad matchups against certain army builds, but tyranids have definitely become much more durable in 6th thanks to their psychic powers (and to the new Fearless rules). I think they actually matchup quite well against the GK's and necrons in this edition. The armies that they will have more problems against are the super-shooty ones that can take out their MC's quickly.

Dark eldar, CURSE THEM AND THEIR POISONED WEAPONS!!!

BaconUprising wrote:
Dark eldar, CURSE THEM AND THEIR POISONED WEAPONS!!!

That is one bad matchup for nids.

Another is still Space Wolf Rune Priest/long fang-spam.

Other problematic matchups? Believe it or not, Tau broadside/fireknives and Eldar war-walker-spam could still give them trouble. So can necron flyer-spam, shooty guards, stormbolter-spam grey knights and Tzeentch daemons.

Of course it isn't as bad as in 5th edition, but those army builds are still challenging builds for the bugs to face.

imho Nids should have wiped the board a few lucky rolls for Chaos that prevented this but hey its what happens

Tyranids are a tough matchup for Chaos. Not unbeatable but just tough. Chaos really needs to spam those heavy/special weapons in order to deal with the big bugs. In this battle, stealing the initiative was huge and was just the break that they needed. It gave them just enough of an edge to win this game.

Potentaily sisters of Battle could be a serious risk haven't played many tho

Yeah, Sisters could potentially hurt nids as well. The combination of flamers, heavy flamers, meltas and exorcists definitely give them the tools to play against the bugs. And St. Celestine just by herself is quite deadly.

However, it will be a tough, tough match for the Sisters as well. Back in 5th, I really didn't have that much problems against a melta-spammy sisters army and bugs wasn't even as tough as they are right now with psychic powers and flying monstrous creatures. But in their defense, I ran a much shootier tyranid army back then with 8-9 hive guards and no Doom. Lists have changed since then.