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Von Marlon wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Searched in vain for the thread so started a new one.

In the new CSM codex characters need to replace weapons to take new weapons from the armory. Most characters start out with a bolt pistol and ccw, or bolt pistol and force weapon or yadda yadda, most come with 2 weapons. Now if you take a bike, it says the bike is fitted with a twinlinked boltgun which does not replace your weapon as it does not require you to.

Now the question is can you replace that twinlinked boltgun with another weapon, a combi bolter for instance? Or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, which is a special flamer.

Regular CSM bikers can that take a special weapon can replace the twinlinked boltgun on their bike with a meltagun or plasmagun, so I am leaning towards yes.

A lord or sorc on a bike is not a regular CSM biker and does not follow the same rules for them unless you can quote something that specifically says he does. He is given a standard bike with a combi-bolter. No where is his rules or universal bike rules does it say he can perform the same modifications to his bike as CSM bikers.

And actually the bike a lord gets is fitted with a combi-boltger as standard, not a twinlinked boltgun which although basically the same weapon still adds to differentiate it from a CSM bikers bike.

A) you should read the thread, the op is not saying what you think he is say6ing.

and 2)The Chaos Bike for the biker and the chaos bike for the Lord/Sorc are exacty the same bike; the statement that one somehow has a different set of bolters is nonsense (and irrelevant anyways).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

Again where does it say this?

A permissive ruleset is where it says this. If it dosent say you can fire a weapon that belongs to something else, then you cant fire a weapon that belongs to something else. Its that simple. Its like me saying "Well I'll get into B2B with my allied detatchment of Tau and fire their weapons!"

Not legit at all.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Von Marlon wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Searched in vain for the thread so started a new one.

In the new CSM codex characters need to replace weapons to take new weapons from the armory. Most characters start out with a bolt pistol and ccw, or bolt pistol and force weapon or yadda yadda, most come with 2 weapons. Now if you take a bike, it says the bike is fitted with a twinlinked boltgun which does not replace your weapon as it does not require you to.

Now the question is can you replace that twinlinked boltgun with another weapon, a combi bolter for instance? Or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, which is a special flamer.

Regular CSM bikers can that take a special weapon can replace the twinlinked boltgun on their bike with a meltagun or plasmagun, so I am leaning towards yes.

A lord or sorc on a bike is not a regular CSM biker and does not follow the same rules for them unless you can quote something that specifically says he does. He is given a standard bike with a combi-bolter. No where is his rules or universal bike rules does it say he can perform the same modifications to his bike as CSM bikers.

And actually the bike a lord gets is fitted with a combi-boltger as standard, not a twinlinked boltgun which although basically the same weapon still adds to differentiate it from a CSM bikers bike.

A) you should read the thread, the op is not saying what you think he is say6ing.

and 2)The Chaos Bike for the biker and the chaos bike for the Lord/Sorc are exacty the same bike; the statement that one somehow has a different set of bolters is nonsense (and irrelevant anyways).

I gathered the OP was talking about Lords and Sorc since they mentioned taking the Burning Brand of Skalathrax in place of the combi-bolter? I replied that the answer was no since the lord does not follow the same rules as CSM bikers and there for doesn't get the same options. He gets a standard bike with combi bolter. That is all. His bike does not have have options unless you can quote me specifically where it say it does? No I didn't think so..

If he were able to, it would say he was able to just like it says for CSM bikers.

I also mentioned it saying he has the combi bolter over the twin linked boltgun (even though they are essentially the same), because I believe to further differentiate him from being a regular CSM biker. Not that it needs it of course... then again, maybe it does.

Von Marlon wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Von Marlon wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Searched in vain for the thread so started a new one.

In the new CSM codex characters need to replace weapons to take new weapons from the armory. Most characters start out with a bolt pistol and ccw, or bolt pistol and force weapon or yadda yadda, most come with 2 weapons. Now if you take a bike, it says the bike is fitted with a twinlinked boltgun which does not replace your weapon as it does not require you to.

Now the question is can you replace that twinlinked boltgun with another weapon, a combi bolter for instance? Or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, which is a special flamer.

Regular CSM bikers can that take a special weapon can replace the twinlinked boltgun on their bike with a meltagun or plasmagun, so I am leaning towards yes.

A lord or sorc on a bike is not a regular CSM biker and does not follow the same rules for them unless you can quote something that specifically says he does. He is given a standard bike with a combi-bolter. No where is his rules or universal bike rules does it say he can perform the same modifications to his bike as CSM bikers.

And actually the bike a lord gets is fitted with a combi-boltger as standard, not a twinlinked boltgun which although basically the same weapon still adds to differentiate it from a CSM bikers bike.

A) you should read the thread, the op is not saying what you think he is say6ing.

and 2)The Chaos Bike for the biker and the chaos bike for the Lord/Sorc are exacty the same bike; the statement that one somehow has a different set of bolters is nonsense (and irrelevant anyways).

I gathered the OP was talking about Lords and Sorc since they mentioned taking the Burning Brand of Skalathrax in place of the combi-bolter? I replied that the answer was no since the lord does not follow the same rules as CSM bikers and there for doesn't get the same options. He gets a standard bike with combi bolter. That is all. His bike does not have have options unless you can quote me specifically where it say it does? No I didn't think so..

If he were able to, it would say he was able to just like it says for CSM bikers.

I also mentioned it saying he has the combi bolter over the twin linked boltgun (even though they are essentially the same), because I believe to further differentiate him from being a regular CSM biker. Not that it needs it of course... then again, maybe it does.

Chaos Lord, pg 93: "May take items from the ... Chaos Artefacts sections of the wargear list."

Chaos Wargear list - Chaos Artefacts, pg 91: "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

Either the the combi-bolter on the bike becomes the Lord's weapon, and can therefore be switched out for the brand, or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

Where is the permission to fire a weapon he does have, I must be missing it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

Where is the permission to fire a weapon he does have, I must be missing it.

Page 12 under "Nominate Unit to Shoot"

That only says that the unit can be nominated to make a shooting attack if one or more models in the unit has a shooting weapon.

"During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks" P.12 (This does not state each model may shoot a weapon he owns, it talks about nominating a unit to make a shooting attack).

Where is the permission to fire a weapon a model has?

I seriously can not find anything saying "A model can fire one of his own weapons in the shooting phase" Or similar.

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

So than I can trade out the Plasma part of a combi -plas?

It's his weapon, it has two distinct firing modes/components of Bolter/plasma

No, you can't trade out part of the combi-weapon as its one weapon with 2 firing modes(like Krak and Frag on a missile launcher)

You could trade the whole thing for something else.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, you can't trade out part of the combi-weapon as its one weapon with 2 firing modes(like Krak and Frag on a missile launcher)

You could trade the whole thing for something else.

I'd classify it more as a bolter with a one shot sub "thingy" comparably to a HKM on a Vehicle.
Gonna look up some combi's be back to discuss further, might even turn a 180 altogether.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, you can't trade out part of the combi-weapon as its one weapon with 2 firing modes(like Krak and Frag on a missile launcher)

You could trade the whole thing for something else.

I'd classify it more as a bolter with a one shot sub "thingy" comparably to a HKM on a Vehicle.
Gonna look up some combi's be back to discuss further, might even turn a 180 altogether.

The rulebook calls it an extra weapon just saying.

pg 56 second paragraph. COmbi weapons

Isn't that what I said?

Its a bolter with a second firing mode that happens to have one shot.


You know what I would have liked? Some piece of terrain that allows you to Re-arm one shot weapons, maybe one of the objectives or a purchasable fortification.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Isn't that what I said?

Its a bolter with a second firing mode that happens to have one shot.


You know what I would have liked? Some piece of terrain that allows you to Re-arm one shot weapons, maybe one of the objectives or a purchasable fortification.

Read the rules for Combi's they're classified as being a seperate weapon. Not just a firing mode.

I'd say no you can not trade out the bike weapons. It seems a bit beardy to try and do so. You buy all your wargear at once so techically you do not even have the bike when you purchase additional wargear.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

So than I can trade out the Plasma part of a combi -plas?

It's his weapon, it has two distinct firing modes/components of Bolter/plasma

no because combi-plas are special versions of combi bolters that can fire once per game as a plasma. note they are twinlinked because they are combibolters, not bolters and further they isnt plasma gun. the combi bolter can fire as a plasma once per game.

 Exergy wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

So than I can trade out the Plasma part of a combi -plas?

It's his weapon, it has two distinct firing modes/components of Bolter/plasma

no because combi-plas are special versions of combi bolters that can fire once per game as a plasma. note they are twinlinked because they are combibolters, not bolters and further they isnt plasma gun. the combi bolter can fire as a plasma once per game.

Thats nice and all however the BRB lists it as 2 seperate weapons. The lord may trade out any weapon, so I will opt to trade out the plasma portion.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

So than I can trade out the Plasma part of a combi -plas?

It's his weapon, it has two distinct firing modes/components of Bolter/plasma

no because combi-plas are special versions of combi bolters that can fire once per game as a plasma. note they are twinlinked because they are combibolters, not bolters and further they isnt plasma gun. the combi bolter can fire as a plasma once per game.

Thats nice and all however the BRB lists it as 2 seperate weapons. The lord may trade out any weapon, so I will opt to trade out the plasma portion.

Combiplas for CSM are listed in the CSM codex, which trumps the BRB.

 Exergy wrote:


Combiplas for CSM are listed in the CSM codex, which trumps the BRB.

Can I get a pg #?

Not seeing it on pg 65 with the other ranged weapons.


This is why you're wrong

"Proflles for the following ranged weapons are listed
on the summary page (pg 105). Their full rules can be
found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. pg 65 C:CSM

"combi-weapons" From the list below

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Combiplas for CSM are listed in the CSM codex, which trumps the BRB.

Can I get a pg #?

Not seeing it on pg 65 with the other ranged weapons.

Page 65, top left corner: Profiles for the listed weapons in the box, have their full rules found in the Warhammer 40K rulebook.

Happyjew wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Combiplas for CSM are listed in the CSM codex, which trumps the BRB.

Can I get a pg #?

Not seeing it on pg 65 with the other ranged weapons.

Page 65, top left corner: Profiles for the listed weapons in the box, have their full rules found in the Warhammer 40K rulebook.

Which tells me to refer to the BGB?

Which tells me they're seperate weapons

Exactly. You can purchase a combi-weapon and then trade away either part as the BRB specifically says they are two separate weapons. You can also trade away your grenades, heck, you could even argue that since the bike allows you to make a HoW attack it too is a weapon (though I think that would be pushing it).

If you we're allowed to further modify the bike, it would be stated as an option under the entry, which it doesn't so you can't exchanged the weapon on the bike for something else.

An example is the Helbrute which has a power fist. There are options listed to further modify the power fist arm or even purchase another one.

The listing of the bike does not purvide with further options, so it cannot be modified in any way.
The listed options under the chaos bikers do not apply to The Lord as he isn't a part of that entry.

So no, buying a bike does not provide you with a further weapon for you to trade away.

You have permission as it is a weapon the lord "has"

Find explicit denial of that permission; or, find something saying it is not a weapon the lord "has"

Anything else is your unsupported opinion, unrelated to the written rules

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have permission as it is a weapon the lord "has"

Find explicit denial of that permission; or, find something saying it is not a weapon the lord "has"

Anything else is your unsupported opinion, unrelated to the written rules

So I can trade in the Bolter for a combi-flamer. Trade the flamer portion for a combi-melta, and the Bolter portion for a combi-plasma?

Sure, you have 2 one shot weapons.

Pretty useless for the point cost.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sure, you have 2 one shot weapons.

Pretty useless for the point cost.

No, he would have a combi-melta, and a combi-plasma, if that were allowed, so 2 boltguns and 2 one shot weapons.

Ahhh, indeed. you are correct.

Of course you are paying the points for 3 combi-weapons to get 2 so I don't see a fairness issue.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ahhh, indeed. you are correct.

Of course you are paying the points for 3 combi-weapons to get 2 so I don't see a fairness issue.

Of course instead you could buy a combi-flamer, trade the bolter for a combi-melta, trade the bolter for a combi-plasma. Now you have a combi-flamer-melta-plasma.

Which you have now paid 3 for 3 combi-weapons. Real expensive.