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Hey dakka!

I'm beginning my first 6th edition army and I'm set upon an Alpha Legion cell ( Codex: chaos space marines) supported by traitor guard.

I have the main concept for the list worked out(one thing to not is that it will include Huron) but I want to include a unit that could represent the elite Infiltration teams of Astartes that the Legion is known to use. The issue is I'm unsure how to represent this unit on the tabletop especially considering how sub-par the chosen are currently, and because i dont feel that they adecuately represent the "elite" status of highly trained Legion squads. One unit I have been considering to fill this role is:

10 Noise marines
Blast master
8 sonic blasters
Doom Soren
Icon of excess
CCW for all except champion
This unit comes out to about 260ish points.

Now, as I see it, this unit would be a very, very nasty thing to see 12" away from you on the first turn. There are 3 reasons for this I can see:
1. They will be putting out 16 S4 shots at 24" or 24 shots at 12" (which is how far from their target they should be if infiltrating) and on top of those shots the blastmaster will (hopefully) drop an AP3 small blast.

2. They are Initative 5, which means that against nearly all marines they will strike first in CC, not to mention the fact that their over watch fire is disgustingly strong due to the Doom Siren and it's D3 shots.

3. With FnP they are fairly durable unless heavy firepower is dedicated to them, in which case the rest of my army will be free to attack at will.

The only downside to this unit I see is its cost, but to me it seems worth it to have the opportunity to wipe backfield units out entirely and pose a serious threat to the rear armor of enemy vehicles once that has been achieved (either mode of blastmaster fire will suffice).

What say you Dakka?

I think you're understanding salvo wrongly. You get your full number of shots at max range if you dont move. Thats 24 shots at 24" stationary 16 shots at 12" on the move.

I'm not convinced shooty units are good infiltrators. Assaulting units have several advantages over shooty ones as far as infiltrators go. They tie up a unit that can harrass you downfield. They are protected from shooting if they can get into assault. They also can do their job going first or second.

Shooty units dont really do any of the above. Noise marines arent particularly devastating enough for this job. Usually you want a unit that can come in and cripple vehicles or that can severely diminish a units numbers. Noise marines cant really do the first. They can throw out a lot of dakka but are restricted to soft targets that hide in cover. Harder targets can shrug off sonic blasters so you have to rely on the blastmaster.

You also have to go first to be effective. If you go second you give your opponent too much control on what targets you can shoot at. Noise Marines have to start 18" away in the open because you dont want to move. This leaves you open to getting seized and blown out before you can do anything. You are also unlikey to survive the return fire.

Infiltrators, especially shooty ones, are a 1 for 1 sacrificial unit. You want to be able to take out your opponents most dangerous unit and expect your unit to die. You want them to be cheap. Noise Marines are not that.

Most of the times you'll only be 18" away after Infiltrating and unless you're in a rhino, no one can move 6" and be within 12".

Well my rules interpretation explains why I thought this was a good idea so thank you for correcting me!

I really want to be able to represent the Alpha Legion's tactics of sneaking elite squads into advantageous positions, but chosen just don't seem to be "elite" enough due to their standard stats and complete lack of special rules, and as far as the other "elite" infantry goes (berserkers, thousand sons etc...) I saw them as being more closely representative of the sort of Commando type Astartes (higher initiative, tougher, fearless, unique weaponry etc) I believe the Aplha Legion employs.

But you make a good point Tarrasq when you say they are a very expensive unit to be dropping close to my opponent, especially if they need to be in the open to fire their weapons.

In light of this, what sorts of units (aside from suicide ultra-u fluffy chosen teams) would you recommend using Huron's ability on?
Terminators perhaps?

Thanks so much for the replies!

A large unit of Khorne Berserkers is a very good candidate for infiltration, especially if you put Kharn in the unit.

Terminators make a fine unit when tailoring a list around the automatic 1 Infiltrating unit.

I can actually see this as an effective infiltrator, but not one to get directly in the enemy's face.

Infiltrating a shooting unit like this would save them the 1-2 turns it would take to advance up the midfield to take advantageous positions. Keep in mind, you can't be closer than 18 inches but you can be further away. Which is fine. The noise marines then have good control over that area of the board, nothing is going to want to come within 24" lest it get the everliving hell shot out of it. This gives you a measure of board control as your opponent isn't going to want to enter that area, and their FnP is going to make them hard to shift out of it.

I'd cut the close combat weapons though. Between their brutal overwatch and their high initiative, I don't think you really need much more to tip the assault in your favor. Especially since you'll probably get one turn of shooting at them off before they can charge. It is a bit expensive, no doubt, but it can be a very valuable tactical asset for midfield board control.

^
That's actually similar to the idea I had for the unit, especially because they are significantly more durable than any other units able to put out that kind of dakka except a large unit of terminators.

My idea is to have the unit of noise marines and a unit of terminators, the marines are going to infiltrate nearly 100% of the time, and of the terminators has the opportunity (i.e I roll a 3+ for Huron) they will as well, and of they can't, they'll be able to deep strike or walk depending on the situation.

However, I definitely see the power of Khorne berserkers infiltrating, and they'd be a quite effective sheparding squad I force my opponent to shift their heavy weapons and vehicles or lose them, which is always nice!

@Bromethius
How would you equip such a squad?
I'd think a large, heavily armed squad would be very effective, and they'd need a few bodies if they were going to make it all the way into combat. I'd also assume that Tzeentch marked ones would be ideal, they would likely need it to survive the inevitable plasma fire.



@Lokas
The CCWs are so dirt cheap though, why not have an extra attack?

infiltrate 2 fully tooled up squads into seperate pieces of cover now you have a massive control radius and 2 hard as nails units for the enemy to shoot at he has to split fire or focus on one group meanibg the rest of your force can move up the field unmolested another unit o use huron on would be raptors or spawn both are very fast moving and very durable give the raptors IoE and some melta guns. if you should be able to get into combat 1st turn

@Crimson-King 2120
Two fully tooled units of what? Noise Marines? Terminators? It seems that either one would work in the role you are suggesting, and I'd say the noise marines would perform that role better IMO, mostly due to their much greater firepower at the 24" mark, and with the blastmaster safely in cover it can drop the template every turn.

Try the noisemarines for a couple of games and see how it works.

Some things that look great on paper dont translate as well onto the tabletop (stupid Defilers.....). it SOUNDS like it could be really nasty. As you can infiltrate D3 units your Noisemarines will ALWAYS infiltrate, the only question is, will anything else?

I am still a big fan of berzerkers and if you could infiltrate them as well as some Noisemarines for fire support then you are laughing.

So turn one you have a full wall of sonic blasters denying cover...followed up moments later by the face busting charge of a Berzerker unit. All the while the rest of you army is moving up the board as normal.


EDIT:


BTW - nice one. After all the intial posts from Alpha Legion players saying they got nothing out this codex, it's nice to see someone adapting the codex to suit their needs and playing a fluffy Alpha Legion army.

i meant noise marines mate

It's also worth noting OP that the unit you proposed costs quite a bit more than 260pts. Then again, close combat weapons on a static suppression unit aren't exactly the best idea.

What do you mean "will anything else"? you GOT other units around right? so just infiltrate them into the place where they normally belong anyway!
You can infiltrate into your own deployment zone just as well, the point is that they enemy does not know where place them even if you did deploy first until after he places his own army.

The more infiltrates the better, even if used just to cover up your deployment.

As for the nosie marines, I think a fully-equipped ranged unit might be the best (as in all guns upgrades, no melee upgrades), it will seriously dominate it's sphere of influence from turn 1, and placing it 18'' away allows you to decimate a unit on turn 1 if you go first.

10 man unit 8 sonic blasters blastmaster doom siren 279pts i normally dont bother with the doom siren as they are not assaulting anyone

 Tarrasq wrote:

I'm not convinced shooty units are good infiltrators. Assaulting units have several advantages over shooty ones as far as infiltrators go. They tie up a unit that can harrass you downfield. They are protected from shooting if they can get into assault. They also can do their job going first or second.

Shooty units dont really do any of the above. Noise marines arent particularly devastating enough for this job. Usually you want a unit that can come in and cripple vehicles or that can severely diminish a units numbers. Noise marines cant really do the first. They can throw out a lot of dakka but are restricted to soft targets that hide in cover. Harder targets can shrug off sonic blasters so you have to rely on the blastmaster.

You also have to go first to be effective. If you go second you give your opponent too much control on what targets you can shoot at. Noise Marines have to start 18" away in the open because you dont want to move. This leaves you open to getting seized and blown out before you can do anything. You are also unlikey to survive the return fire.

Infiltrators, especially shooty ones, are a 1 for 1 sacrificial unit. You want to be able to take out your opponents most dangerous unit and expect your unit to die. You want them to be cheap. Noise Marines are not that.

I politely disagree. Noise Marines can be very effective infiltrators and are especially tough against footslogging armies, which seems to be the new meta in 6th edition.

In a recent game against Space Wolves, I infiltrated 2 squads of 10 NMs with 8 sonic blasters, a blastmaster, an Icon of Excess and a Rhino. The NMs shot up 2 squads of Grey Hunters on the first turn, causing about 5 wounds each and pinning one of them. I used the Rhinos as mobile cover, placing them between my units and most of the rest of his army.

His side of the turn was disastrous. When his troops returned fire, they caused a couple wounds I was able to shrug off due to feel no pain. The rest of his army focused on shooting up the Rhinos, taking out one but not the other. He moved up 2 other squads of Grey Hunters, getting ready for an assault.

The next turn, I moved my remaining Rhino out of the way and proceeded to shoot up 2 more Grey Hunter squads. At this point, 4 of his 5 troop units were down to half strength or less, my infiltrated Noise Marines were untouched, and I had 2 more squads of Noise Marines in Rhinos plus 2 large squads of Chaos Bikers moving in. My Defiler was dropping battle cannon shots on his ML Long Fangs from all the way across the board, and I still had Obliterators in reserve, ready to drop in and shoot them up from behind.

When he did charge the next turn, the infiltrated NMs were able to wipe out 2 of his Grey Hunters squads with a mixture of overwatch plus high initiative attacks. His shooting phase was mostly focused on the Noise Marines in the front, which was important because it allowed me to set up my other units for assaults and more shooting the next turn.

The NMs were devastating as infiltrators. The IoE made them highly durable and their Rhinos made it very hard for my opponent to shoot back. They were able to wipe out 3 tactical squads without taking any serious damage themselves and were really what kept my opponent on his side of the board the entire game (except for his Wolf Lord and some Thunderwolves, which did charge across to get my Defiler).

10man terminator units are best with this setup:

2x Chainfist
Veterans
Axes
Icon of Vengeance.

techsoldaten wrote:In a recent game against Space Wolves, I infiltrated 2 squads of 10 NMs with 8 sonic blasters, a blastmaster, an Icon of Excess and a Rhino. The NMs shot up 2 squads of Grey Hunters on the first turn, causing about 5 wounds each and pinning one of them. I used the Rhinos as mobile cover, placing them between my units and most of the rest of his army.

Well see the problem is you got a huge benefit from playing rules wrong. The Rhino can only Infiltrate with the squad if the squad deploy inside it, meaning either they can't shoot on turn 1 (defeating the purpose of Infiltrating them), or they can but then the Rhino cannot Infiltrate. So the results of your game don't really prove much.

Why can't they infiltrate inthe Rhino, then disembark and shoot in turn 1?

I would think that deploying doesn't count as moving so the Rhino hasn't moved more than 6".

you can infiltrate them inside the rhino disembark and still shoot 12inch

Wow lots of replies!

@Praxiss
That sounds like buckets of fun! I think I'll try lists with double noise marines, a NM and a zerker, and then with an NM and terminators tooled as @Bromethius suggested, a versatile assault unit. The terminators seem like they might be a little better just because they are SO durable.

@Crimson-King2120
That's a good point and I'll probably drop the CCWs for that reason, however my idea around the Soren was not so much as an offensive weapon, but as a further deterrent to being assaulted. I don't know many MEQ armies that would like to run head long into 24 bolter shots, a heavy bolter (assault mode blastmaster), and then D3 auto hits from a S5 ap3 flamer!

That said dropping the siren would help to subsidize the cost of a rhino which I'm seeing more and more as a valuable investment.

@techsoldaten
Using them to focus down enemy scoring units seems like another really great use for these guys, especially since few troops will be able to exchange fire with them and come out on top at 24".


Oh, and thanks for the Alpha Legion shout out Praxiss!

That could be interesting. With Berzerkers vs terminators you are kind of swappign quality for quantity.

With the 'zerkers you will get more attacks at higher WS, plus more ablative wounds. With the terminators you will get few attacks but a lot fo those (or all, depending on wargear/target) will deny armour saves and a better armour save.

personally i woudl go with the 'zerkers and have a Khorne lord somewhwere so they can go on to capture an objective (unless that is the plan for the Noise marines)

@Praxiss
I am planning on a Khorne Lord on bike/juggernaught with Khorne spawns as the army's hammer, so I'd say the Zerkers would be a FAR better option. I hadn't even considered that they'd be scoring, and the very fact that a large blob of Zerkers behind enemy lines would certainly draw fire from the rest of my army, not to mention the noise marines who will seem like a lower priority.

However as I've mentioned before the terminators have a distinct advantage over the berserkers because they are not entirely dependent on the Huron roll to deploy in an advantageous position, especially because in order for the berserkers to have an edge over the terminators they must have more than 10 members, and if they do, they can't use a rhino which in turn means that they will either have to footslog in the event of my rolling a 1-2, or have fewer than 10 men and take a rhino. So basically its starting to look like the termies have got the edge here.

What do you think about that?

your problem here is that you need to take Huron which only leaves you with 1 Free HQ slot if you take the khorne lord the noise marines cant be troops and vice versa

Good point. With that in mind i think i would go terminators.

if you then take a Slaanesh lord the Noise marines could start mving up after the intial fire exchange and capture an objective - i woudl think they would be better at holding one than berzerkers as well.

So the termaintors move up and clear the way, the Noise Marines camp on the objective and just dig in.

Having scoring noise marines sounds all fine and dandy, but wouldnt that mean that my beatstick lord would take a serious power hit? I was planning on using my lord on jugger with the spawn.

I guess I should try it out both ways and see how it turns out.

How would you run a Slaanesh lord? I haven't really looked into it at all since I'd decided on the Khorne one. Would you put him on a steed in a unit of bikes with the icon of excess? And would you recommend taking more than just the two noise marine squads because they are now troops, or using vanilla CSM as my primary infantry?

 Praxiss wrote:
Why can't they infiltrate inthe Rhino, then disembark and shoot in turn 1?

I would think that deploying doesn't count as moving so the Rhino hasn't moved more than 6".

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
you can infiltrate them inside the rhino disembark and still shoot 12inch

A bit of simply math goes a long way. You have to Infiltrate outside of 18", so we'll saying 18.1", you get out 6", so now you are 12.1" away, i.e. out of range. And sure you could move the Rhino first, but you are still giving up 8 shots just to put a Rhino up there, which is not a very good idea.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
Why can't they infiltrate inthe Rhino, then disembark and shoot in turn 1?

I would think that deploying doesn't count as moving so the Rhino hasn't moved more than 6".

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
you can infiltrate them inside the rhino disembark and still shoot 12inch

A bit of simply math goes a long way. You have to Infiltrate outside of 18", so we'll saying 18.1", you get out 6", so now you are 12.1" away, i.e. out of range. And sure you could move the Rhino first, but you are still giving up 8 shots just to put a Rhino up there, which is not a very good idea.

I didn't say it was a good idea just that it can be done :-D

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


A bit of simply math goes a long way. You have to Infiltrate outside of 18", so we'll saying 18.1", you get out 6", so now you are 12.1" away, i.e. out of range. And sure you could move the Rhino first, but you are still giving up 8 shots just to put a Rhino up there, which is not a very good idea.

Moving the rhino up 6" and then disembarking lets you get just outside 6". Plus it gives you access to searchlights that can light up pretty much any enemy unit so that your long range shooters have a target. Infiltrating d3 rhinos full of infantry might give you a decent edge on night fight missions.

It's probably worth reminding everyone that Infiltrators cannot ever charge on the first turn, no matter how close you can get them. So if you deploy recklessly hoping for a first turn charge, you're going to get shot to bits. Squishy units like a 10 man squad of Khorne Berzerkers will get dakka'd to hell and back before they even have a chance to yell "Blood for the Blood God!"