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So I recently battled my friend who runs VC, and he came up with a new list that really takes advantage of the new FAQ ruling that says Terrorgeists/Banshees are allowed to use there shooting-howl attack into combats they are not apart of.
I am a Wood Elf player, and I run an odd list with 3 treemen, and 2 eagle riders, so he basically had 5 ideal targets for his howling monsters. (This list does fairly well against traditional lists with lots of short guys to stomp.)
Needless to say, I got slaughtered.
His howling took out all but one of my monsters, and by the end of turn 4 I threw in the towel.

From my perspective, the howling into combat is incredibly unfair, seeing as the monster doing the howling can be kept completely out of harms way, and there is very little the defending player can do to stop it. I might be mistaken, but I don't think there is anything else in the game that allows a unit to do this much damage to a model that is in combat with another model. It creates a game play element that goes against what I thought of as one of the traditional WHFB strategies "if you can get into combat, you can get away from the guns"

However, I think that it is very likely that I'm just suffering from whiny loser syndrom, and can't get over the fact that I was stomped so mercilessly.

How does everybody feel about this new rule? fair/unfair?

ChaosPotato wrote:
So I recently battled my friend who runs VC, and he came up with a new list that really takes advantage of the new FAQ ruling that says Terrorgeists/Banshees are allowed to use there shooting-howl attack into combats they are not apart of.
I am a Wood Elf player, and I run an odd list with 3 treemen, and 2 eagle riders, so he basically had 5 ideal targets for his howling monsters. (This list does fairly well against traditional lists with lots of short guys to stomp.)
Needless to say, I got slaughtered.
His howling took out all but one of my monsters, and by the end of turn 4 I threw in the towel.

From my perspective, the howling into combat is incredibly unfair, seeing as the monster doing the howling can be kept completely out of harms way, and there is very little the defending player can do to stop it. I might be mistaken, but I don't think there is anything else in the game that allows a unit to do this much damage to a model that is in combat with another model. It creates a game play element that goes against what I thought of as one of the traditional WHFB strategies "if you can get into combat, you can get away from the guns"

However, I think that it is very likely that I'm just suffering from whiny loser syndrom, and can't get over the fact that I was stomped so mercilessly.

How does everybody feel about this new rule? fair/unfair?

I'd put it in the same ball-park as Burning Alignment (Engine of the Gods doing hits with no save over a small area), or the Mortis Engine (larger area, but you get saves).
I think banshees needed the boost and terrorgheists didn't.
The problem with terrorgheists is base size. They are freaking huge. While the screams and howls can now go into combat, they are still limited to their own combat if they are in melee.
Terrorgheists aren't all that hard to kill. T6 and 6+ regen only goes so far. S5 isn't much hitting power.

As a VC player, I'm more happy about the Hex Wraith/Van Hals Danse boost. 12" vanguard, 16" march (doing 10 S5 hits with no save on a unit), then I only need a 6+ (or 3+ on 25pt bound item) to tap a unit again for another 10 S5 no save hits. It gives me another very easy to cast spell that you really don't want going off.

If you really want to surprise a VC, try the spirit sword on an eagle riding high borne. Vampire Counts really don't like leadership contests.

-Matt

It can hardly keep safely out of range, considering it a large target monster. It's range is 8". It's super short.

Against normal units it's not very good. Against lone targets it is. It's just one of those things. Some stuff is good against another. Like a cannon would pop a TG. Or nearly any anti-monster stuff.

You're in the situation of having earlier editions monsters vs. 8th. They finally wised-up and made 8th monsters better. An Arachnarok is scary good. It could slaughter a TG, it's just more expensive. TK monsters are pretty damn good. OK monsters are so-so, but still better than, say, Beastmen. Even the new DoC Soulgrinder would probably beat the TG, though probably not on cost.

I.e., an Arachnarok can D6 you and still have 15 more attacks. A Necrosphinx can HKB you and have 4 more attacks. A Soulgrinder can D6 you at Str10 potentially auto-hitting and has a ward save and T7. Empire steam tank can basically do everything and then explode.

I run etheral VC and I, for one, am happy to see that the list idea wasnt as bad as I had originally thought. Banshee howl is more than a little unfair, but considering how much she costs points wise and the fact that her CC capabilities are nil-zip-none I find the howl a bit more balanced. (not completely as you have seen but eh, there you have it)

Wood Elves are suffering from having outdated monsters. And an outdated book in general.

Its really just a case of waiting for your new book and doing the best you can until it comes out.

I don't see how the Terrorgheist howling into combat could be considered unfair against an army with 3 treemen ! If I was playing Wood Elves I would most likely batter it to death with as many arrows as possible on turn one. Due to it only having Regen 6+ for a save it is not very durable. Once it's wounds are down the scream loses it's effectiveness. It is also not very powerful in combat, although quite tough against standard troops, and good combat res will most likely crumble it into dust. I think the scream differs to normal shooting like arrows as the undead are most likey deaf and therefore cannot be harmed by the noise. Also, it is possible to fire cannons and stone throwers into combat if you are cunning enough!

Actually, you can't shoot cannons into combat. Its illegal to fire at a point where it is possable to bounce into combat.

I don't like the rule as its a messy exception that doesn't need to exist. Allowing one unit the ability to fire into combat seemingly arbitrarily annoys me from a position of rules elegance.

That said, the terrorgheist itself is vulnerable like all monsters are (even more so, really) and it has to get pretty close to use its howl. It makes for a pretty interesting little unit as a result of all of that. Which means most people, myself included, get smashed by it the first time we play against it, but wise up fairly quickly.

It does kinda make up for VCs having no other shooting.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It does kinda make up for VCs having no other shooting.

They aren't the only army that can freely shoot into combat...

-Matt

Skaven can do it situationally.

Globadiers can always do it.

So can any wizard with a vortex.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Skaven can do it situationally.

Yeah, and slaves are a really uncommon unit...

-Matt

Skaven are a filth race anyway. Loads of nasty, unfair and outdated toys.

DukeRustfield wrote:
An Arachnarok is scary good.
...
I.e., an Arachnarok can D6 you and still have 15 more attacks.

Um, are you looking at the same Arachnarok as me? The Arachnarok's only real advantage is that it has eight wounds, and a good initiative (for a Monster). That's it. They're WS4, S5, and due to how handling works they lose Leadership thanks to their crew (who are WS2 S3 attacks base). Venom Surge is of selective worth as against most multi-wound Monsters you have only a 50% chance of hitting it and either a 33% or 16% chance of wounding. The only army I can really see it being useful against is Ogres, and mostly in a "Hope you don't get pulped by their own monster / return attacks from Iron Guts" manner.

The Ogres at least get a delicious bubble of Always Strikes Last from one of their monsters, one who - if I remember right - costs a fair deal less than the Arachnarok too.

Against VC's i hate to say it, Eternal Guard really hold their own, I normally wouldnt recommend them but they really arent too bad. You will however eleminate a terrorgheist with ease in 2 turns with 30 glade guard. Even at s3, but if you can get half range, s4, his toughness 6 and 6 regen no armour save will not hold up. But you shouldnt have too many problems stopping them with mounted lords/heros. All flying cav is fast cav so you can stay out of range and charge a good distance. Like Matt said spirit sword owns VC's for the most part. I dont see how the treemen are getting slaughtered their ward save is not their bread and butter. Though they definately need buffed. Treekin / Dryads are usually a better option these days due to points, and dryads being the less gimped by edition changes than treekin or treemen.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, you can't shoot cannons into combat. Its illegal to fire at a point where it is possable to bounce into combat.

Hold on a for second, is that true? Can you provide a page / FAQ? That'd be interesting...this would mean that you must not place the marker up to 20'' away from a unit in cc :O

Page 112, "Choose a Target" third paragraph.

Woah...that's...pretty sweet! Thanks! No cannonballs 20'' away from my cc troops anymore \o/

As a monstel lover i love the heck outta dat

I can't believe this is even a question. I should start a thread called "Swordmasters with Great Weapons. Fair? Unfair?"