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Deamonforge looks awesome, but I wondered how useful it would be, since its going to be wounding on a 2+ for the most part. Then again I do tend to roll too many 1's that it might be a worthy risk.

 minigun762 wrote:
Personally I consider using 3 of anything that isn't a troop unit, as cheesy and spammy. (Sounds like an unhealthy meal...)

2 is enough for redundancy purposes.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Deamonforge looks awesome, but I wondered how useful it would be, since its going to be wounding on a 2+ for the most part. Then again I do tend to roll too many 1's that it might be a worthy risk.

It has been the difference between a unit with 1-2 left and a dead unit many times

When do heldrakes become cheesy ?

When you know your opponent is playing foot MEQ list and you bring 3 Drakes...

I added a Heldrake to my escalation league list and just found out I'm going against an Ultramarine player. I almost feel bad.

In dense tables (such as those we play here), many times the enemy has no choice but to pack his infantry; to avoid impassable terrain on the go, or to avoid difficult terrain on the way to an objective, and of course when he is moving out of a transport.

My oblits with plasma cannons have always been murderous against forcibly disembarked troops; I can't imagine the baleflamer to be any different. It can also pile easy wounds on tough units like nob bikers, thunderwolves, wraithguard and other stuff that your regular firepower woulld struggle against. The drake has very good synergy with most CSM heavy slot stuff as it frees makes you not waste plasma and rockets on infantry and direct them to MCs and vehicles instead, spreading out more serious damage.

Fliers can't take or contest however, it doesn't matter how close the wings are to the ground.

A lot of arguements are being looked at in a vaccum here. Since when is the helldrake alone on the table.

Transports get opened by autocannon havoks and have a mininum of two turn to open them up before the Heldrake has to flame something.

Multiple 20+ squads that spread out quickly run out of room or cover, thus bunching up does happen.

There are way to get a squad to bunch up. Tankshocking, exploding vehicles, Pavane (my favorite). All these are available to the chaos player.

Since when is a flamer bad against hordes? Just because its AP3 and ideal for killing MEQs doesn't mean I'm not going to send it against orks. 10 orks under the template for 3 turns is about a break even on points. Any more deaths from vector striking or tigher formations and its profit.

Yes it can be killed, yes there are going to be games where it rocks the house and others where it lays an egg. Thus is the nature of 40K.

 Ailaros wrote:
Sure, but a single non-skyfire lascannon hits 1/6 of the time, pens 1/2 of the time, and wrecks 1/3 of the time. That's one in 36 shots, on average.

That sounds bad until you consider that your opponents likely have a way of twin-linking them (bringing it to 1 in 18 shots), and are likely bringing way more than 1. In my particular case (foot guard), I bring 10 in 1,000 points. If my guardsmen take orders, I'm likely able to put down a penetrating hit per turn, and that's just with my troops choices.

Plus, even if you don't wreck it, a weapon destroyed result will pretty much make that thing useless.

5++ from Daemon so one in 48 shots. I know some guard armies have 48 lascannons but they do cost a bit.


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 King Pariah wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Helldrake would be scarier if he had the ability to fight in cc like a Dread or so. Just flying around with a baleflamer will not always do enough damage. Look at Termies.

He can vector strike at S7. Sure, not exactly close combat, but does make for a decent extra oomph.

Makes short work of rhinos and preditors which people were saying were immune to its shenagins

The thing that confuses me the most, is that so many people are looking at things as a pass/fail test.

Just like the argument about the DP a while back, if people can't see it as an auto-take then its garbage. Is it like this when every new dex' gets released? Bikers and spawn give it something to compete with, but doesn't reduce it's own usefulness.

I started with and still primarily use Tau, only recently starting CSM as allies. My dex only has 3-4 useful units in the entire book and only has a decent FA option with Forgeworld. When has options become a bad thing? Why is it bad for units to compete against other good units?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Is it like this when every new dex' gets released?

Yes, I have seen this happen almost everytime a new codex drops. A loud segment of the wargaming community likes to give a Pass or Fail on each unit. This is often the knee-jerk answers you get on the forums. The more experienced and well versed players, however, often find a way to use almost any unit in an army list. Which is why when you start getting longer threads you actually get useful information. I do not mean to say that only rookies make these P/F comparisons, that is simply not true, but I would have to say it is not the community as a whole, but a segment, which are very vocal.

 juraigamer wrote:
Fliers can't take or contest however, it doesn't matter how close the wings are to the ground.

Where does it say they cant claim? Also if it says so somewhere, then hover mode. Problem solved.

 Leth wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Fliers can't take or contest however, it doesn't matter how close the wings are to the ground.

Where does it say they cant claim? Also if it says so somewhere, then hover mode. Problem solved.

Page 123 Controlling Objectives in the BRB

It is a vehicle... so it cannot claim or contest. Unless the mission is the Scouring because that allows fast attack choices to claim/contest regardless of whether or not they are a vehicle. (unless immobilized)

I completely forgot what the original topic was about.

Personally I don't think bringing any number of heldrakes is considered cheesy since its expensive, overfills a specific role if running the same gun, has a fair diversity if the guns are swapped, and reduces the number of other viable units in the same slot.

Though I will say that fliers seem cheap at the moment because there are not enough Skyfire weapons.

I've faced heldrakes before, I don't know why everyone is pooping their pants about them. An aegis defense line can silence the baleflamer most of the time, Get 4 hits ask them if they jink, wich they won't cuz they most likely have a hard-on for using the flamer. Get 1 pen and most likely its not using that baleflamer now anyway.

The Heldrake never has to jink since it's a Daemon with it's 5++. In addition, it has Daemonic Possession, which means on a 2+ it ignores Crew Shaken and Stunned. You're going to be hard pressed to stop that Baleflamer from firing bar a Weapon Destroyed result.

 AresX8 wrote:
The Heldrake never has to jink since it's a Daemon with it's 5++. In addition, it has Daemonic Possession, which means on a 2+ it ignores Crew Shaken and Stunned. You're going to be hard pressed to stop that Baleflamer from firing bar a Weapon Destroyed result.

Oh snap! The guy I played needs to read his book more clearly hahaha

 Goat wrote:

 AresX8 wrote:
The Heldrake never has to jink since it's a Daemon with it's 5++. In addition, it has Daemonic Possession, which means on a 2+ it ignores Crew Shaken and Stunned. You're going to be hard pressed to stop that Baleflamer from firing bar a Weapon Destroyed result.

Oh snap! The guy I played needs to read his book more clearly hahaha

yes also at AV12, pens are unlikely from str7 weapons, only a 1/6 chance most of which the helturkey will ignore anyway. A BS4 quadgun will get .59 glances and .59 pens, of which .39 glances and .39 pens will go through. That is a .13 chance to destroy it or knock it's weapon off which is ok but not great.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Fliers can't take or contest however, it doesn't matter how close the wings are to the ground.

Where does it say they cant claim? Also if it says so somewhere, then hover mode. Problem solved.

Page 123 Controlling Objectives in the BRB

It is a vehicle... so it cannot claim or contest. Unless the mission is the Scouring because that allows fast attack choices to claim/contest regardless of whether or not they are a vehicle. (unless immobilized)

Well duh, he said fliers can never claim, so I thought there might be some rule.

Obviously it would only work when fast attack could claim objectives.