Malifaux Through the Breach - Malifaux RPG Kickstarter - Pics of Minis and Shipping boxes (Pg 52)

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**Gymnogyps**

Catyrpelius wrote:

While KD might not be a risk in that they won't disappear with their money. I still view it as a risk as its a small operation, that's only shipped out 5,000 orders over three years. It's very easy for these small operations to become buried under their own sucess and either have horrible delays, shoddy work or not properly estimating costs.

This is why I won't back Kingdom Death, but I have backed this RPG.

Wyrd has built themselves from one or two interesting, different miniatures (I have an original Pandora, from before the game existed) into a relatively large and successful company. They have been consistently releasing product, creating and meeting demand, and growing and improving their business. As of now this kickstarter is very achievable, with realistic funding and deliverables. They are already at $78K of the $30K goal, so its looking like its doing pretty darn good to me.

However, if this does get into the too much money / overpromise / underdeliver trap, then I may back out of this one. But, with this being a company, they do have a reputation to lose if they do not deliver the product, so it would have to get stupid overambitious before I'd really worry.

Kickstarter is not just about successful funding. Its about being able to successfully deliver the project goal. Breaking funding records is not a desirable thing for every project. Really.

**Breotan**

You'll notice that KD & Malifaux gave themselves a much larger lead time than other kickstarter projects, nearly a year in both cases. I expect that both Adam and the Malifaux team did at least a little research before starting these and looked at "worst case" scenarios if the kickstarters pulled in more money than anticipated.

**Catyrpelius**

Breotan wrote:
You'll notice that KD & Malifaux gave themselves a much larger lead time than other kickstarter projects, nearly a year in both cases. I expect that both Adam and the Malifaux team did at least a little research before starting these and looked at "worst case" scenarios if the kickstarters pulled in more money than anticipated.

Actually I think the Wyrd kickstarter date has more to do with them and Gencon...

**redstripe**

Buzzsaw wrote:
Oh wow, I totally did not notice... this is scheduled to be released September 2013. That's a... lot of lead time for a project like this... no?

I think a lot of people would be very surprised by how frantic and fast-paced the development of a RPG book is. Working with dozens of freelance writers and artists and with just as many playtesters can be nerve-wracking. Just juggling all those contacts can be rough. I know of a very well-regarded miniatures game supplement that came back from the printers less than a month after it went into editing.

That Wyrd plans to give themselves almost a full year to work on their book does not seem unreasonable, though it may be a conservative estimate. I'd expect that they have their RPG mechanics developed to a level that would be ready for testing. Developers are willing to starve to get their projects going, but artists and writers expect to get paid. I would expect that the majority of that won't happen until after the Kickstarter completes.

I am just speculating, though.

**Buzzsaw**

redstripe wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:
Oh wow, I totally did not notice... this is scheduled to be released September 2013. That's a... lot of lead time for a project like this... no?

I think a lot of people would be very surprised by how frantic and fast-paced the development of a RPG book is. Working with dozens of freelance writers and artists and with just as many playtesters can be nerve-wracking. Just juggling all those contacts can be rough. I know of a very well-regarded miniatures game supplement that came back from the printers less than a month after it went into editing.

That Wyrd plans to give themselves almost a full year to work on their book does not seem unreasonable, though it may be a conservative estimate. I'd expect that they have their RPG mechanics developed to a level that would be ready for testing. Developers are willing to starve to get their projects going, but artists and writers expect to get paid. I would expect that the majority of that won't happen until after the Kickstarter completes.

I am just speculating, though.

Oh, I realize that development of an RPG is time intensive... which is a reason I'm so confused by the deadline. To me, at the stage you go to kickstarter, you should have the majority of the behind the scenes work on something like that done, like you would go to a VC company with the prototype in hand. I mean, by way of contrast, Dreamforge had the vast majority of their concepts and such done, they were basically at the point they (and by they I mean Mark) couldn't go any farther without a cash infusion to cut molds.

It seems impossible that they wouldn't be really far into the development process. I mean, the next edition of D&D, which has a huge development staff and wads of money involved, isn't rumored to go on-sale til Q1 2014, and they have been working at it for months already.

I'm just perplexed, what exactly is the state of things? Who knows?

**Alfndrate**

Day 2 Update:

Wyrd Miniatures wrote:November 29th - over 280% of funding goal

Hi everyone! Day Two is coming to a close, so it's time for the Daily Update. Thanks for your incredible support!

First, there’ve been a lot of people concerned about losing their Miss Terious if they change their pledge level. We’re happy to say that you can change your pledge at any time, and your Miss Terious is completely safe. It is important to know that if you CANCEL your pledge for any reason, even if it’s just to create a new pledge, the Miss Terious will be forfeit. Check the FAQ’s out here ( www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer%20questions%23BackAProj ) if you’re unsure about how to change your pledge without canceling it. And, don’t hesitate to message us if the FAQ’s don’t answer your questions.

Many backers and potential backers are talking about the Project’s reward levels, and that’s good! We want your feedback and suggestions. Our design for the Through the Breach Kickstarter is certainly off the beaten path, and with good reason. The folks in charge of Kickstarter have encouraged all project creators and project backers to be aware that Kickstarter is not a store and they don't want to see it run like one. We've tried to put together a compelling project that needs your help and feedback to succeed, with exclusive and enticing rewards if you choose to participate. Now that we’re funded, our promise is sealed; we will be producing Through the Breach. If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!

Until Tomorrow!

**Buzzsaw**

Several immediate reactions;

Our design for the Through the Breach Kickstarter is certainly off the beaten path, and with good reason. The folks in charge of Kickstarter have encouraged all project creators and project backers to be aware that Kickstarter is not a store and they don't want to see it run like one.

*Snort*

If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!

Hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahahaha *cough**hack*

Fwew... Okay, so... yeah.

Seriously, anyone care to venture a guess why these communications are made "For Backers Only"?

Anyone?

Bueller?

**Ozymandias**

So they don't get replies as useless as yours?

**Buzzsaw**

Ozymandias wrote:
So they don't get replies as useless as yours?

I'll get some burn cream right on that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Many backers and potential backers are talking about the Project’s reward levels, and that’s good! We want your feedback and suggestions. Our design for the Through the Breach Kickstarter is certainly off the beaten path, and with good reason. The folks in charge of Kickstarter have encouraged all project creators and project backers to be aware that Kickstarter is not a store and they don't want to see it run like one. We've tried to put together a compelling project that needs your help and feedback to succeed, with exclusive and enticing rewards if you choose to participate.

So, this seems in keeping with the previous statement;

Rather than bury you under a pile of cloth maps and t-shirts, we've decided to take a new approach. We want to focus all of our production effort on giving you a few high-production value rewards that we hope you will treasure for years to come. Instead of swag destined for the closet, we want to create trophies with reserved places on your shelves.

Which, taken together... do rather seem to indicate that there will not be an overabundance of added value here.

Is there any other logical inference to be made?

Edit: also, not to besmirch the fine people at Wyrd, but don't the 2 existing updates seem a bit... corporate? You look at the other kickstarters, and the updates read conversationally, this reads like it was generated by a PR machine. It doesn't really seem to say much of anything, but it uses a fair number of words to do it.

Two references to "feedback" in as many sentences. "We want your feedback and suggestions", "needs your help and feedback"...

**Alfndrate**

Buzzsaw wrote:
If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!

Hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahahaha *cough**hack*

Actually anyone that spends more than a day on Wyrd's forums know that they generally give your local stores a chance at their latest releases before they go for sale on their site. They did this with EBO and let the Vlog brothers get a crack at selling it before Wyrd started selling.

So telling backers that if they don't like the kickstarter, they're more than welcome to support their local stores and buy the RPG through there.

**cincydooley**

I'm right with you buzz saw. This update, like the first one, pretty much ignores the very valid pledge level questions many people have voiced.

What's worse is that it seems that they're simply making excuses all the while holding their noses in the air to anyone critical of them.

"Oh. You don't like how we're doing it? Fine, well take our ball and you can wait until your local shop gets one."

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until Saturday, but my patience for the nonsense is wearing a bit thin.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alfndrate wrote:

Actually anyone that spends more than a day on Wyrd's forums know that they generally give your local stores a chance at their latest releases before they go for sale on their site. They did this with EBO and let the Vlog brothers get a crack at selling it before Wyrd started selling.

So telling backers that if they don't like the kickstarter, they're more than welcome to support their local stores and buy the RPG through there.

Like they do with all the pre-release stuff they have at gen con that they very very very slowly trickle out through LGS distribution? I got pieces at gen con that have still yet to be released. That, I can assure you, does the LGS exactly zero favors.

**Buzzsaw**

Alfndrate wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:
If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!

Hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahahaha *cough**hack*

Actually anyone that spends more than a day on Wyrd's forums know that they generally give your local stores a chance at their latest releases before they go for sale on their site. They did this with EBO and let the Vlog brothers get a crack at selling it before Wyrd started selling.

So telling backers that if they don't like the kickstarter, they're more than welcome to support their local stores and buy the RPG through there.

No offense, but if that logic is taken seriously, why have exclusive figures at all, or stretch goals?

I mean, as you've pointed out several times in the past few pages, the prices as they exist are competitive (for the very expensive niche of RPG books), so why not just leave it at that?

For a book project, that's entirely appropriate. The Art of Brom didn't have a crapton of extras, once they had all the development for the editions paid for, they simply said "deal is as good as we can offer, enjoy!"

You know what, I admired them for that. There was a confidence to that approach. But it also was the approach made possible by the fact the product was closed: once the book is done, it's done. No need to develop the rest of a product line.

Is that what we're seeing here? They are beating around the bush like they expect to flush out snakes and it just seems really odd. Odd and corporate.

I mean, the ladies at Darkmire are spending the last 48 hours doing Red Bull and cigarettes (I presume) to be up and online the last 48 hours*, but Wyrd can't spare the staff to update their Kickstarter more then once every 24 hour period?

*Seriously, they are like the little, pervy, engine that could... Lord bless their scantily clad hearts...

**Alfndrate**

Yes, but you paid to go to GenCon, not everyone can afford the trip, ticket, and/or hotel to get to GenCon.

**plastictrees**

Buzzsaw wrote:

No offense, but if that logic is taken seriously, why have exclusive figures at all, or stretch goals?

I mean, as you've pointed out several times in the past few pages, the prices as they exist are competitive (for the very expensive niche of RPG books), so why not just leave it at that?

For a book project, that's entirely appropriate. The Art of Brom didn't have a crapton of extras, once they had all the development for the editions paid for, they simply said "deal is as good as we can offer, enjoy!"

That's admirably honest. Adam has said something similar in regards to the KD project, in that he can't add much else to the base game and still have it make sense as a retail product.
Wyrd's "we're going for quality, not a bunch of frivolous extras like all those other KSs" approach is vaguely insulting to other succesful projects and at least slightly shady. Show us how high quality your product will be. The spotty nature of Wyrd's interior art and minis does not give me confidence that this will inherently be a high quality product.

**Absolutionis**

Let's all wait until after 5pm PST tomorrow and then judge whether their stretch rewards are worthwhile.

The kickstarter is barely a day old and has still exceeded its objective.

Personally, I just hope they at least release a video explaining the gameplay mechanics.

**cincydooley**

Alfndrate wrote:
Yes, but you paid to go to GenCon, not everyone can afford the trip, ticket, and/or hotel to get to GenCon.

Which is why they offered those exact same deals online during the convention. Invalid argument.

**Breotan**

Absolutionis wrote:
Let's all wait until after 5pm PST tomorrow and then judge whether their stretch rewards are worthwhile.

The kickstarter is barely a day old and has still exceeded its objective.

Personally, I just hope they at least release a video explaining the gameplay mechanics.

Remember, you can always withdraw your pledge should you decide you no longer desire to back the project.

**Alfndrate**

cincydooley wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
Yes, but you paid to go to GenCon, not everyone can afford the trip, ticket, and/or hotel to get to GenCon.

Which is why they offered those exact same deals online during the convention. Invalid argument.

And yet, those same great deals through Wyrd's online store came out weeks late due to the popular demand and shipping constraints. I'm sure there are people overseas waiting for the Dark Debts box to arrive still, but from the words of one of Wyrd's owners they want the LGS to have first official crack at sales before they show up on Wyrd's store.

If you look at Wyrd's store right now, Mei Fang is on her way to retailers and distributors, but won't be available for at least another week or so on Wyrd's store.

**cincydooley**

They still made them readily available to all far before they were giving the LGS an opportunity to even sell them.

I realize you're a henchman and you're going to defend them until you're blue in the face, but your argument simply doesn't follow, and the fact that there were shipping delays doesn't change that fact.

**Absolutionis**

In fact, the Mei Feng boxed set is available right now in some retailers. I'm assembling it and the Oiran set this very moment.

I hadn't realized until just now that Wyrd doesn't have them up on their site at all.

**cincydooley**

Also: Wyrd finally responded to my comments in the KS backers section and their response was strangely passive aggressive. I'm going to try and copy it over here.

**Alfndrate**

cincydooley wrote:
They still made them readily available to all far before they were giving the LGS an opportunity to even sell them.

I realize you're a henchman and you're going to defend them until you're blue in the face, but your argument simply doesn't follow, and the fact that there were shipping delays doesn't change that fact.

I'm defending them because I pay attention to how they do business, I've stated several times in this thread that there are pieces to this kickstarter that I don't agree with, yet you and Buzzsaw are openly mocking and attacking the company's practices that are easy to find on their forums and that Wyrd makes no effort to hide. I'm trying to be friendly about this dude, but you guys are making it awfully hard to do that.

And as Absolutionis said, Mei Fang a box he picked up at his FLGS, is not available on Wyrd's webstore.

Edit: Their response seems pretty clear...

**cincydooley**

They're missing the whole point, my man. The point is that the RPG would not exist without the miniatures game, yet they are not making it easy for the folks that have more interest in the minis game than the RPG to get the pieces to use in said game.

It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It doesn't make sense. Further, their stubborn adherence to the pledg levels they've set is baffling. Why not put a level in there that grants the buyer the option to have dinner and drinks with th design team at GenCon like Mike McVey did?

Every highly funded Kickstarter I've seen run in this hobby has had a base level ( like abomination for Zombiecide) that is the "benchmark" level. Then higher ones that include nice stuff, like personalized art, etc, build off that. Again, it seems to me that they're simply being stubborn and are trying to reinvent the wheel "their way". Why?

And they're trying toads it all off by calling th stretch goals "thank yous". What is that?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we're not mocking or attacking. We've both provided reasoned criticism of how they're inexplicably running the campaign.

**Buzzsaw**

Alfndrate wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
They still made them readily available to all far before they were giving the LGS an opportunity to even sell them.

I realize you're a henchman and you're going to defend them until you're blue in the face, but your argument simply doesn't follow, and the fact that there were shipping delays doesn't change that fact.

I'm defending them because I pay attention to how they do business, I've stated several times in this thread that there are pieces to this kickstarter that I don't agree with, yet you and Buzzsaw are openly mocking and attacking the company's practices that are easy to find on their forums and that Wyrd makes no effort to hide. I'm trying to be friendly about this dude, but you guys are making it awfully hard to do that.

Not to be pedantic, but they actually did make an "effort to hide" the thing I most openly mocked, their updates. Just a a technical point.

Beyond that... whaa? I haven't specifically mocked their bizarre pseudo-secrecy regarding updates, I just was fascinated by the oddity of it. No, I think I've been pretty clearly mocking their overall conduct in this campaign: because I think it's stupid and underhanded.

I neither know nor care about the degree of dissemination of their practices. A stupid practice is still stupid if it's widely known, and an underhanded technique is no less underhanded for its transparency.

The stuff about supporting FLGSs has all the sincerity of any other kiss-off.

Let's be clear, for people that think the value of the pledge levels is inadequate given the nature of the field, the last update has done... well, basically nothing to reassure such people that their concern is being heard. It's rather pointedly expressed that they ought to reconcile themselves to not being satisfied and look towards retail release instead,

Frankly, I don't actually believe that. I seriously doubt that they have the stones to "go Brom", as it were, and say "yup, what you see is what you get". I would be shocked if they don't add stretch goals, in fact, I would presume that tomorrows update will add multiple items to the mid-level pledges. If only because not doing so would be so brazen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

cincydooley wrote:
And we're not mocking or attacking. We've both provided reasoned criticism of how they're inexplicably running the campaign.

In fairness, I mocked a bit there. Because when the answer to "these pledges don't seem to offer commensurate value" is "then don't pledge", what can you do but laugh?

We can get the stuff retail?! Sweet Fancy Moses, a revelation!

**Alfndrate**

cincydooley wrote:
They're missing the whole point, my man. The point is that the RPG would not exist without the miniatures game, yet they are not making it easy for the folks that have more interest in the minis game than the RPG to get the pieces to use in said game.

Except that they're not making a minis game. They already have that, it's called Malfiaux. The RPG could have come first, and we'd be having the exact same argument but you would be arguing that the miniatures game wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the RPG. It's not a real solid ground to stand on. I don't think they've missed the point by much. Yes there are missteps on some of the pricing and with communication, but the book deals are priced fairly, the misstep is the mini deals. Which if you're an RPG gamer, hell you can pick up a few rotten bells, a few outcasts, etc... and there you have no need for the new minis.

It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It doesn't make sense. Further, their stubborn adherence to the pledg levels they've set is baffling. Why not put a level in there that grants the buyer the option to have dinner and drinks with th design team at GenCon like Mike McVey did?

They have a level like that, but it gets you a seat at GenCon to play through an adventure with Mack Martin, I'd pay for that if I had the cash for that. Who cares that you can't have drinks with Justin and Mack, you meet them at GenCon, and offer to buy some drinks after the exhibit hall shuts down. Sure you might not get the chance to do that, because they can say no, but it's a lot cheaper to do that.

Every highly funded Kickstarter I've seen run in this hobby has had a base level ( like abomination for Zombiecide) that is the "benchmark" level. Then higher ones that include nice stuff, like personalized art, etc, build off that. Again, it seems to me that they're simply being stubborn and are trying to reinvent the wheel "their way". Why?

Again, they have that. You want personalized art, sure, it just has to be in the book, I'd rather have that than a print that I can lose or get damaged.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

And we're not mocking or attacking. We've both provided reasoned criticism of how they're inexplicably running the campaign.

Spoiler:

So, what's not mocking about this post?

**cincydooley**

I'm sorry, where is that level? Maybe you have different access to the Kickstarter than I do? I see nothing on there that offers a seat to play and adventure with Mack Martin.

There's no personalized art pledge, either.

I'm really confused here. D you have different pledge options than the rest of us?

Ahh. I see it. It's part of the super secret "not really a pledge level" section. Just another piece of this campaign that baffles.

Seriously. Why aren't those levels listed to the right with the other 4??

**RiTides**

Alf, I think you'd do better to let the legitimate criticisms stand. There are a lot of valid points to it.

Hopefully, Wyrd will prove these points wrong... but your arguing on their behalf is, imo, not helping their case. They need to address the issues raised, and nothing you can say will alleviate that until they do directly.

As it is, this isn't a very attractive thread to be a part of, but it takes two sides to make it that way. Not all the criticism has been polite, but again much of it is valid, and they have addressed almost none of it.

**Absolutionis**

Wyrd noted that they will expand the Kickstarter on Friday. Considering stretch goals have become the de facto standard for these types of Kickstarters, let's see what happens before continuing. Until then, all this circular arguing is not getting anywhere.

**dj.kickz**

They need to address the issues raised, and nothing you can say will alleviate that until they do directly.

Let's be clear, for people that think the value of the pledge levels is inadequate given the nature of the field, the last update has done... well, basically nothing to reassure such people that their concern is being heard. It's rather pointedly expressed that they ought to reconcile themselves to not being satisfied and look towards retail release instead,

Apparently they don't NEED to address anything and plenty of people think the value of these pledge levels is fine because they've raised 3 times their goal in 2 days.

**Breotan**

cincydooley wrote:
I'm sorry, where is that level? Maybe you have different access to the Kickstarter than I do? I see nothing on there that offers a seat to play and adventure with Mack Martin.

There's no personalized art pledge, either.

I'm really confused here. D you have different pledge options than the rest of us?

Ahh. I see it. It's part of the super secret "not really a pledge level" section. Just another piece of this campaign that baffles.

Seriously. Why aren't those levels listed to the right with the other 4??

I have no idea why the chose to do what they did. I do know that the bitchin going on here is getting on par with the stuff in the BTP thread and that's pretty sad. At the end of the day this project is being run by Wyrd, not Adam Poots or McVey, and whining about "secret pledge sections" and "secret messages to backers" isn't going to change that fact. Decide if what they are offering is worth the money they are asking then either pledge or walk away.