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I think the question becomes what will happen if the funding amount dips below a level due to pull outs at the end. I'm sure there are people that pledge early for the bonus hanging on by a glimmer in hopes that more value will be added.

Having access to Advanced Pursuits at the outset of the game would be good for long term character planning and letting people have a greater feel for what they want to achieve.

It might not be game breaking, but it sure as hell will make the game seem a hell of a lot less well rounded.

Not to mention having in Expanded Earth History and Secrets of Malifaux tucked in at $250k makes no real sense. Shouldn't those parts be already included in the basic compendiums so people can have a firm grip on the setting of Malifaux? Especially for those who don't play the tabletop game?

The thing of it is I think they backed themselves into a corner. They said from the outset it would have been funded kickstarter or not. But under pressure to release stretch goals they threw this chart out. Now it seems like they won't reach anywhere near where they wanted to go (hence the discussion on all the blank space on the sheet given beforehand) and are kind of stuck. Perhaps all of the stretch goals were actually going to be in the game, but the need to show people what they were investing in kind of forced their hand.

Now if they don't make those levels, does that mean material which might have already been included is now going to be left out? Was it really planned this way?

I don't know. For me it sounds a bit like a complete omni-shambles of a kickstarter. A friend wants in on this, and I said he was welcome to it, and gave him my pledge. I think he is likely to be disappointed, but it's his decision. Otherwise, I am pretty much out at this stage.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
If they end up deciding to stick by their stretch goal chart, and people pull out of the game and thus they decide not to give everything they were expecting to at the beginning, I don't know if it will even be worth buying once it hits retail.

Don't want to buy an unfinished RPG system, or one that requires an add-on just to be able to play it correctly.

I don't think I have seen too many big companies shoot themselves so thoroughly in the foot on kickstarter like Wyrd has. It's baffling.

Besides the creature compendium, what not going to be included that will limit your ability to play this game?

Assuming that "Advanced Pursuits" are analogous to D&D's Paragon Paths, not having those in the player's book would be very noticeable, since such things are an inherent part of game balance. Not having either the "Creature Catalogue" or "Skirmish Model Stats"... I'm not even sure how you could play a game without those.

Of course, the more you look at the Book plan, the more you have to question what if any relation it has to reality.

At $200k they "Creature Catalogue" is added... but the page number stays the same? Huh? There are a bunch of "2x" items, they really can quantify how many items they can brainstorm, and then how much money it takes to double it? It's also amusing to see "2x Writers" in different places for the two books. Uh, okay...

All of this of course just goes back to the discussion on page 3: for $60, there really doesn't seem to be much of a discount on these books compared to what we reasonable could pay retail. Which also begs the question... even at $250k, do these books seem like good value at retail?

We've assumed a retail of like $35-40. For 228 page softcover books, that seems really quite high. That's on par with most of my gaming hardcovers, and a way, way higher price point then the D&D Essential's line of softcovers (which are both longer and cheaper).

depending on how you plan to play the skirmish model stats may be nessesary (if for example you plan to skirmish up your larger encounters, or actually want to roleplay up your skirmish campaigns)

Advanced pursuits maybe? (depends on whats in the basic book)

Expanded Earth History ? (is this a pull together from the skirmish books? or completly new never before seen stuff. Depending on how they plan to evolve & grow they game it might be important)

 cincydooley wrote:
I think the question becomes what will happen if the funding amount dips below a level due to pull outs at the end. I'm sure there are people that pledge early for the bonus hanging on by a glimmer in hopes that more value will be added.

That will absolutely be something that has to be taken into consideration should it happen, with 10 and half days to go, I don't see this dropping too far below 175k, and even at that point, all you would be missing is x2 gear and magic. The creature compendium could easily be added seamlessly into the expansion books. Is that a gak move? yes it is, but it's also something that they'll have to deal with. It doesn't make the game unplayable, especially since we won't be losing the Dispositions system, which will allow you to convert your players into the skirimish game. Congrats, now you have a battle system with loads of generic monsters without any sort of conversions needed (beyond the player to skirimish game disposition system). And from there, if you want it shouldn't be hard to reverse engineer from the skirmish game to the RPG. Is this ideal? No, but it's far from unplayable.

Edit: As it has been said in the Breach Side Chats, the Skirmish Model stats are conversions of people like the current masters and henchman made into NPC versions for the RPG game.

Edit: As it has been said in the Breach Side Chats, the Skirmish Model stats are conversions of people like the current masters and henchman made into NPC versions for the RPG game.

Ah thanks for that, makes more sense that these are less essential then

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
If they end up deciding to stick by their stretch goal chart, and people pull out of the game and thus they decide not to give everything they were expecting to at the beginning, I don't know if it will even be worth buying once it hits retail.

Don't want to buy an unfinished RPG system, or one that requires an add-on just to be able to play it correctly.

I don't think I have seen too many big companies shoot themselves so thoroughly in the foot on kickstarter like Wyrd has. It's baffling.

Besides the creature compendium, what not going to be included that will limit your ability to play this game?

Assuming that "Advanced Pursuits" are analogous to D&D's Paragon Paths, not having those in the player's book would be very noticeable, since such things are an inherent part of game balance. Not having either the "Creature Catalogue" or "Skirmish Model Stats"... I'm not even sure how you could play a game without those.

Of course, the more you look at the Book plan, the more you have to question what if any relation it has to reality.

At $200k they "Creature Catalogue" is added... but the page number stays the same? Huh? There are a bunch of "2x" items, they really can quantify how many items they can brainstorm, and then how much money it takes to double it? It's also amusing to see "2x Writers" in different places for the two books. Uh, okay...

All of this of course just goes back to the discussion on page 3: for $60, there really doesn't seem to be much of a discount on these books compared to what we reasonable could pay retail. Which also begs the question... even at $250k, do these books seem like good value at retail?

We've assumed a retail of like $35-40. For 228 page softcover books, that seems really quite high. That's on par with most of my gaming hardcovers, and a way, way higher price point then the D&D Essential's line of softcovers (which are both longer and cheaper).

I'll give you the creature catalog, but the Skirmish Model Stats are only used to tie the Malifaux the Skirmish game and Through the Breach the RPG together, you don't need one to play the other. Advanced Prusuits are more specific and higher level base pursuits. For example you might have a character that uses the base pursuit of sunslinger. Later on that same character could work towards the advanced pursuit of Guild Gunslinger or something along those lines. It's really only nessacary if its included. Sure it might make the character more dynamic but it isn't nessacary to play.

A $35 to $40 price point would put it in line with the Malifaux books which are on average a bit shorter.

True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

 Fenriswulf wrote:
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.

 Fenriswulf wrote:
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

So you say that it's not unplayable, and then give me an example of a car that clearly cannot run on it's own? A car can't run with all of those things missing or broken. I never said you're going to have to wait on the expansion books to get a "much better rounded" system. I said that's a possibility and that it would be a gak move to do. I don't work for wyrd, I know just as much as as you all do. I'm giving my speculation on what they could do. If you notice It's been several days since I've participated in this thread, because it's honestly not good for my blood pressure to argue with some people on this site. Buzzsaw and Cincy have brought forth good arguments and points, and I agree with you all, this KS is not being the most well run and like I've said, you're only going to back it if you see the value. I still find value in what I would get out of the KS that what I might down the road. Idk what my finances are going to be like in 8 to 10 months, but I have the money to invest now and try to get the pieces that interest me and help make the drive better.

And to be fair, not every major RPG system out there released their main books with their monster manuals in the core rules. Maybe they released them separately, gave you one or two to get you going, but in most cases you had to buy a third book at release or you had to wait until that third book was released. The creature compendium could never come out for all I care. I'm horrible at developing my own RPG adventures. The penny dreadfuls will be a godsend if they include creature stat blocks in the back of the adventure.

The point of this kickstarter just like any kickstarter (regardless of what Wyrd has said) is to invest in a product you'd like to see made. Whether the company is going make the product or not, your pledge has helped make it better.

Feth, the Penny Arcade KS didn't get this much flak.

Hey, at least Gabe will be thinking of me during sex at some point.

Will Mack do that?

... wait, don't answer that. I think I'm actually happier not knowing.

Forar wrote:
Hey, at least Gabe will be thinking of me during sex at some point.

Will Mack do that?

... wait, don't answer that. I think I'm actually happier not knowing.

Someone should obviously ask during the next Breachside Chat

 Fenriswulf wrote:
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

Just to amplify Fenris' point: to laud an upcoming product as "not unplayable" seems to be damning with faint praise indeed.

 Alfndrate wrote:
The point of this kickstarter just like any kickstarter (regardless of what Wyrd has said) is to invest in a product you'd like to see made. Whether the company is going make the product or not, your pledge has helped make it better.

Herein lies perhaps the greatest problem: it's very difficult to believe that Wyrd ever really intended for that Book Plan to reflect reality. As SpiralingCadaver noted, it seems clear that they anticipated a much higher, much faster accumulation of funds. Which is, in fairness, the pattern that many prominent campaigns have followed and indeed is very much the model that C'MoN uses, but they marry the approach with a low, hook-you-in pledge level.

If, as they say, the RPG was always going to be sold, then one can only presume that they had a great deal of information about what was going to be in it (an idea bolstered by the new claims I'm seeing that the books are intended to be available in August for GenCon) and what they would look like.

So why is everything so slapdash? Information that would help people make informed decisions dribbles out like, while they have Martin pimp the bejesus out of stuff that has to be in the books. This is not to belittle what Mr. Martin is doing, but I have serious doubts about the number of people who's primary buying concern is the specific mechanics of the games, rather then the broad strokes.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

Just to amplify Fenris' point: to laud an upcoming product as "not unplayable" seems to be damning with faint praise indeed.

 Alfndrate wrote:
The point of this kickstarter just like any kickstarter (regardless of what Wyrd has said) is to invest in a product you'd like to see made. Whether the company is going make the product or not, your pledge has helped make it better.

Herein lies perhaps the greatest problem: it's very difficult to believe that Wyrd ever really intended for that Book Plan to reflect reality. As SpiralingCadaver noted, it seems clear that they anticipated a much higher, much faster accumulation of funds. Which is, in fairness, the pattern that many prominent campaigns have followed and indeed is very much the model that C'MoN uses, but they marry the approach with a low, hook-you-in pledge level.

If, as they say, the RPG was always going to be sold, then one can only presume that they had a great deal of information about what was going to be in it (an idea bolstered by the new claims I'm seeing that the books are intended to be available in August for GenCon) and what they would look like.

So why is everything so slapdash? Information that would help people make informed decisions dribbles out like, while they have Martin pimp the bejesus out of stuff that has to be in the books. This is not to belittle what Mr. Martin is doing, but I have serious doubts about the number of people who's primary buying concern is the specific mechanics of the games, rather then the broad strokes.

Exactly!

Hard to believe that a KS from a 'major' company is this poorly planned out and run, and that it is experiencing the stalling dropouts that it is. I didn't think Wyrd would be this... inept at things.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Herein lies perhaps the greatest problem: it's very difficult to believe that Wyrd ever really intended for that Book Plan to reflect reality. As SpiralingCadaver noted, it seems clear that they anticipated a much higher, much faster accumulation of funds. Which is, in fairness, the pattern that many prominent campaigns have followed and indeed is very much the model that C'MoN uses, but they marry the approach with a low, hook-you-in pledge level.

You always set your expectations high. the EFT kickstarter had high expectations after making 5k a day for the first two or three days (it was a far smaller KS), and as things slowed in the middle of the campaign we tried things to bring in new backers. We changed some of the stretch goal levels and tried to bring in new blood. We lost a couple of major backers due to weather related reasons, but at the end of the day we tried our best to bring people into the drive. We had thoughts of what would happen all the way up to 500,000 dollars. Did we get near that? no, but it would be better than being caught with our pants down, which I'm not saying didn't happen to Wyrd.

If, as they say, the RPG was always going to be sold, then one can only presume that they had a great deal of information about what was going to be in it (an idea bolstered by the new claims I'm seeing that the books are intended to be available in August for GenCon) and what they would look like.

If you look at the KS it says Sept. 2013 as the release date. Claims of "being in backer's hands" by GenCon are far from new. Especially considering regular shipping for Evil Baby Orphanage had the shipping date of November, and people that went to GenCon could pick their games up at GenCon (granted I was there and totally ignored this email >_< ). And they never said when the Canon Campaign would be placed in the game. It's quite possible that it's going to be in an expansion and change the story as things happen.

So why is everything so slapdash? Information that would help people make informed decisions dribbles out like, while they have Martin pimp the bejesus out of stuff that has to be in the books. This is not to belittle what Mr. Martin is doing, but I have serious doubts about the number of people who's primary buying concern is the specific mechanics of the games, rather then the broad strokes.

I'm not going to lie, they should have had Mack doing this from the beginning and they should have released a lot of the concept art at the beginning. I've never said that this KS is being run perfectly, something that everyone seems to keep ignoring when I post in this thread.

Way I see it, they still got ten days to woo me off the fence to their side of the yard.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.

You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. Beastiary 3 runs 26 for 320 pages. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.

You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...

Legally your not an investor, US law doesn't allow for micro investment. Additionally you'd be hard pressed to get much of a return on an investment given the current intrest rates.

Paizo website currently lists the Beastiary 3 at $40.00 plus shipping, you can't go by wholesalers/discounters when making a comparision.

On the Hardback vs. Softcover argument, for every person you find that prefers a hard cover you'll find a person that prefers a softcover.

I prefer hardback RPG books myself, means it takes less blows to bring an unruly player back into line.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.

You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...

If you're referring to the Bestiary 3, you're sadly mistaken, and it's quite the comparison I'd like to make. Though upon initial inspection, the only book that amazon lists at 23 USD is the Monster Manual 3 for 4th ed. So... The Monster Manual 3 for DnD 4th edition not 23, it's 34.99 from the retailer, which is the price you need to compare them at. Yes, it's 224 pages, it's full color, and it's hardback. But can you tell me (if you own this book) do you get 35 dollars worth of play out of this that you won't get out of a similarly priced book that is the ONLY way to add RPG monsters into your games? I own 2 Pathfinder Bestiaries, and maybe 2 monster manuals from 3.5 in hardcover form. I rarely go beyond Bestiary 1 in Pathfinder and rarely do I need anything outside of MM1 from 3.5

Like I've said, the creature compendium is superfluous (but would be damn nice) since they have the disposition system in the book. And if you're worried about generic models from the skirmish game, Wyrd has several FREE downloads on the their website with the latest stat cards for the starting boxes and several generic models of the factions. The only ones that don't have this are the new Ten Thunders Masters, all of which aren't even officially released yet.

And Brook, that's what a single large d20 is for. You whip that across the room, crack them in the skull and then tell them to bring the die back to you or you inflict more pain, but upon their character.

 BrookM wrote:
I prefer hardback RPG books myself, means it takes less blows to bring an unruly player back into line.

I prefer them to, but there is just as large a grrup that doesn't like them.

Alfndrate wrote:I'm not going to lie, they should have had Mack doing this from the beginning and they should have released a lot of the concept art at the beginning. I've never said that this KS is being run perfectly, something that everyone seems to keep ignoring when I post in this thread.

Alf, I'm pretty sure that No One is saying this . When people point out what is wrong with this campaign, even if it's responding to a quote of yours, they're not implying that you think it's perfect... just that it does indeed have huge problems, as you agree to. So no need to defend yourself against that accusation

None of this explains how screwed up this whole thing seems, at least not for me.

Well, other than they had a goal in mind of an interest free loan via Kickstarter and the core group of Wyrdos and never cared to go much beyond that?

 RiTides wrote:

Alfndrate wrote:I'm not going to lie, they should have had Mack doing this from the beginning and they should have released a lot of the concept art at the beginning. I've never said that this KS is being run perfectly, something that everyone seems to keep ignoring when I post in this thread.

Alf, I'm pretty sure that No One is saying this . When people point out what is wrong with this campaign, even if it's responding to a quote of yours, they're not implying that you think it's perfect... just that it does indeed have huge problems, as you agree to. So no need to defend yourself against that accusation

No, but I keep getting posts that make it seem as if I know big bad company secrets of Wyrd. In this thread alone I'm sure it's been implied that I'm a secret Wyrd employee, and I already know that one of our "esteemed" mods have accused me of drinking the Wyrd Kool-Aid...

Really? I don't think I've seen serious accusations of either if those things in here, though I haven't been religiously monitoring this thing either...

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Herein lies perhaps the greatest problem: it's very difficult to believe that Wyrd ever really intended for that Book Plan to reflect reality. As SpiralingCadaver noted, it seems clear that they anticipated a much higher, much faster accumulation of funds. Which is, in fairness, the pattern that many prominent campaigns have followed and indeed is very much the model that C'MoN uses, but they marry the approach with a low, hook-you-in pledge level.

You always set your expectations high. the EFT kickstarter had high expectations after making 5k a day for the first two or three days (it was a far smaller KS), and as things slowed in the middle of the campaign we tried things to bring in new backers. We changed some of the stretch goal levels and tried to bring in new blood. We lost a couple of major backers due to weather related reasons, but at the end of the day we tried our best to bring people into the drive. We had thoughts of what would happen all the way up to 500,000 dollars. Did we get near that? no, but it would be better than being caught with our pants down, which I'm not saying didn't happen to Wyrd.

Oh, to be sure. There is a rather nice thread on Reapers forums about starting up a campaign. The important issue though, is that while you were prepared up to $500k, you (I presume) weren't depending on making $100k or $200k in order to get the product properly done. Here is seems like they picked the initial $30k out of a hat and then simply assumed they were going to get to $300k in short order and start working on the 8 expansion books they keep pimping.

I suppose to be very technical, the difference is between what one expects, and what is being relied on. It seems that they relied on getting to $250,000 or more, and the project is suffering for the miscalculation.

 Alfndrate wrote:

So why is everything so slapdash? Information that would help people make informed decisions dribbles out like, while they have Martin pimp the bejesus out of stuff that has to be in the books. This is not to belittle what Mr. Martin is doing, but I have serious doubts about the number of people who's primary buying concern is the specific mechanics of the games, rather then the broad strokes.

I'm not going to lie, they should have had Mack doing this from the beginning and they should have released a lot of the concept art at the beginning. I've never said that this KS is being run perfectly, something that everyone seems to keep ignoring when I post in this thread.

RiTides aptly dealt with this (my "why...?" was rhetorical, not meant to be a question for Alf specifically). By no means do I expect you to answer for the flaws of the campaign. Indeed, one of the more damaging things I have noticed in the comments on the campaign is the increasing defensiveness on the part of some backers. It's entirely understandable, but it seems rather counterproductive.

 BrookM wrote:
I prefer hardback RPG books myself, means it takes less blows to bring an unruly player back into line.

Personally I much prefer a combination of metal dice and elastic bands for that; leaves less marks!
...On the tools that is - feth the player

 Catyrpelius wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.

You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...

Legally your not an investor, US law doesn't allow for micro investment. Additionally you'd be hard pressed to get much of a return on an investment given the current intrest rates.

Semantics are the bastion of the wrong. KS provides a source of capital investment through crowdsourcing. We are investors, any the rate of return on this one is weak compared to most other gaming KS I've seen. I'm still on the fence whether I'd rather have the dining room set, or $125 of Relic Knights or Kingdom Death add ons. The fact that we're even having a debate over whether or not its value is appropriate at RETAIL shows something.

Paizo website currently lists the Beastiary 3 at $40.00 plus shipping, you can't go by wholesalers/discounters when making a comparision.

Actually, I can. Since its how I, and most other people, buy things. Granted, Wyrd has always been very expensive, but still...

On the Hardback vs. Softcover argument, for every person you find that prefers a hard cover you'll find a person that prefers a softcover.

lol. I'm amazed you didn't also try and say that just as many people prefer smaller page counts, or black and white art...

 Bolognesus wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
I prefer hardback RPG books myself, means it takes less blows to bring an unruly player back into line.

Personally I much prefer a combination of metal dice and elastic bands for that; leaves less marks!
...On the tools that is - feth the player

Good luck prying those fethers out of walls and skulls.

 Buzzsaw wrote:


RiTides aptly dealt with this (my "why...?" was rhetorical, not meant to be a question for Alf specifically). By no means do I expect you to answer for the flaws of the campaign. Indeed, one of the more damaging things I have noticed in the comments on the campaign is the increasing defensiveness on the part of some backers. It's entirely understandable, but it seems rather counterproductive.

This isn't too big a mystery - this campaign appeals most to the core group of Wyrd fans and it stands to reason that they'd be the group most heavily invested and potentially offended when now this campaign is being run gets questioned.

I agree though, it is very counterproductive.