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 Forar wrote:
At a cursory glance of the tiers, they're also making around 3,700 books (counting the 2 in 1 special edition as a single book, though obviously it'd be larger, not sure how that would affect the printing process). Around 3k Fate Masters/Fated Guides and 750'ish Special Editions, if it matters.

I have no idea how that number compares to the books they printed off for Gencon and online sales, but they did run out in 4 days, and I don't think there were anywhere near 4k books being sold.

So, even if we bump production and initial shipping up to a month (Oct), if they wrapped up in the next few weeks it's not impossible to see them at least start going out/arriving in November. While I'm not sure RPG sales are as dramatically affected as many other product lines are with the holidays, getting them to backers in Nov and to retail in Dec probably wouldn't hurt if they could manage it.

But it's also possible the game needs another 3 months of playtesting and polish.

They brought 5,000 copies of M2E with them to gencon....

For whatever reason Wyrd gets a really fast turn around on their books from their printer.

I ordered M2E from the web site during Gencon and got it pretty quick. Any delays releasing to stores would seem to be a marketing issue and not a supply issue.

How's the Beta stuff looking? Have they released the beta Fatemaster stuff, yet?

Matney X wrote:
How's the Beta stuff looking? Have they released the beta Fatemaster stuff, yet?

Haven't gotten the chance to take a look in a few weeks. My interest has really dropped off without a solid release date.

There was a new beta update last week (and yesterday it seems), so far no fatemaster stuff has been publicly released. The people testing FM stuff are bound by NDAs.

I was keeping myself and my crew abreast of the beta fairly early on, but as the months dragged on the interest waned. Most of them just want a finished product we can play with, but while they respect said quality can take time, the lack of a release date (even a target) has garnered some grumbling as well.

Apples and oranges as they may be, some bitter mockery based on the massive delays Evil Baby Orphanage faced have definitely come up.

October is obviously a write-off, so now it's Nov, Dec, or "sometime before the Sun goes nova and wipes out all life on this planet".

 Forar wrote:
Apples and oranges as they may be, some bitter mockery based on the massive delays Evil Baby Orphanage faced have definitely come up.
October is obviously a write-off, so now it's Nov, Dec, or "sometime before the Sun goes nova and wipes out all life on this planet".

Yeah, at least with EBO they said, "We're unhappy with x, y, and z so we're going to push it back 3 months." (and it was 3 months) With this though, it's when it's done, it's done. And I doubt we'll get it in November I'm seeing December/January at the earliest.

Oh, no doubt. Unless it goes to print tomorrow even November is a pipe dream. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

But at the same time, accusing them of an at least two month delay when it's only the middle of October seemed a bit extreme, so I erred on the side of being charitable until given further reason to do otherwise.

 Forar wrote:
Oh, no doubt. Unless it goes to print tomorrow even November is a pipe dream. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

But at the same time, accusing them of an at least two month delay when it's only the middle of October seemed a bit extreme, so I erred on the side of being charitable until given further reason to do otherwise.

I would have been fine if they had said, "Hey we're going to push it back x months so we can get this gak right because you all paid for a quality product and we're going to give it to you." Which they did... But they didn't put a timeline on how far they're pushing it back. It's fine if you're going to push it back I get that about kickstarters, I'd just like to know the timeline besides, "when it's done"

I guess as a non-backer, I'm not as irritated by how long it's taking. When it's something I can finally get my hands on, I'll be happy. In the mean time, we'll just keep playing Pathfinder / WoD / Whatever.

Matney X wrote:
I guess as a non-backer, I'm not as irritated by how long it's taking. When it's something I can finally get my hands on, I'll be happy. In the mean time, we'll just keep playing Pathfinder / WoD / Whatever.

Of course not, you've got no money invested in the game yet

I mean I suppose I shouldn't be complaining about this kickstarter since I'm still waiting on my Endless: Fantasy Tactics kickstarter, though the OTL team has said my box will be the last box shipped out.

I think it's just those two and Deadzone I'm waiting on.

I've backed into 5 KS's for anything resembling a decent chunk of change (over $50), this one is the second highest (Gaming Room tier), significantly behind the robotech minis KS earlier this year, so while I try to be patient, yeah, having $270 (after S&H) wrapped up in this one does mean I'm a bit antsy.

Of the other 4, one is on time (Dwarven Forge), one is estimated at a month delayed (Robotech, but I'm skeptical), one has delivered (Shadowrun, 8 months late) and the other is a work in progress (another terrain KS from January, currently 7.5 months late).

6-8 months delayed on $50'ish isn't as big a deal. Annoying, but meh. "At least 2 months... maybe" for significantly more seems to have gotten to me more easily. I think it's the ambiguity that really makes it irritating. Surely if they can project 9 months out when the target is, they know how far they are, and thus how much is left to be done. Like, at a glance, surely there's some king of ballpark between "we're crossing the t's and dotting the i's, it'll be a couple more weeks" versus "look, the FM guide is half done and we've had to revise 3/4 of the Fated Almanac, 2013 might be optimistic..." and somewhere in between.

At least Wyrd's present in their own forums -- Raging Heroes can't seem to answer emails or FB posts (I didn't back that one either, but it was because I couldn't afford the shipping at the time).

Are they at least making progress, or has the project gone stagnant?

Matney X wrote:
Are they at least making progress, or has the project gone stagnant?

There have been three or four beta releases that have been given out so far, visible progress for those who want to see what's done so far.

Disclaimer: I backed Ogre eighteen months ago.

Yeah, 11 months late isn't easy to swallow. I know that feeling, Shadowrun Returns was 8 months late, and I backed that.

However, there are also different reasons for being delayed. I don't know much about Ogre, but the Shadowrun folks were quite upfront about it being a massive undertaking, and that the excess funding allowed them to expand the scope of the game considerably, including free DLC that's supposed to be due out in a few months.

Contrasted with TtB, which was certainly successful, but even with the expanded scope their tune was still "oh yeah, we're aiming for an August release at Gencon" and then "work in progress, no further target date".

As of July an update stated they were 'still on track', and it wasn't until August 9th (literally weeks before Gencon) that they sent an update out admitting it wouldn't be ready. Given that we're now nearing the end of October without a light at the end of the tunnel, it seems pretty reasonable to conclude that they knew it simply wasn't going to happen for some time (we're talking more than just crossing some t's and dotting some i's), which means that either it didn't occur to them to update us, or they wanted to keep it quiet until they had to say something, since those participating in the Gencon canon campaign needed information at the very least.

It wasn't until September 10th (again, only weeks left on a looming deadline) that they again fessed up that further delays were necessary.

Now, credit where credit is due, they've managed to have a small update (a little art, a little note here and there) every week or two for the last 3-4 months, but the lack of even a target remains kind of glaring.

I know a lot of artists and even backers firmly support "it's done when it's done", but I typically reserve that for companies like Blizzard and Valve, whom generally don't have my money until a target is set anyway (and barring a few exceptions, they generally don't miss those dates).

I'm sure Mack is doing a lot of hard work, but as with any creative endeavor, they have to wrap it up and kick it out the door eventually. Even with their magical printing company working on it, October is obviously a writeoff and every week that goes by makes November look less likely. Every beta update is a nice reminder that they're still working on it, but the Fatemaster's Guide remaining in closed beta means it's hard to judge whether this project is nearing completion or merely half done. Mack says the ongoing M2E beta won't be interfering with his work, and yet I recall his efforts being thanked and appreciated greatly at the close of M2E wave one.

And yeah, I'll admit that part of my frustration stems from tossing them a chunk of cash. From here on it's going to have to be a pretty damned solid project to get much more than $30-50 out of me, those I don't sweat nearly as much as I've been keeping tabs on this and the Robotech miniatures.

On the other hand, there have been weekly updated beta versions for the past four weeks.

So if you gave them money, you do have something to show for it while you wait for the finished product.

But all of this beta stuff was supposed to be concluded by August with Mack even stating that he hoped ton have it done and sent off to the printer's as soon as he got back from GenCon, of not by September 1st at the latest...

Weekly beta updates that they don't alert us to until half a week later shows they're still having problems communicating with backers. Not all of us check the playtest website because nothing new really goes on there. I understand they want to control the information that is released,but right now, there isn't much reason to go to the playtest site.

Yes, they are being slow, but I'm still waiting on stuff from Wild West Exodus (I only bought 3rd party stuff, too!), Tablescapes (2nd qtr 2014 if I'm lucky), Raging Heroes (I expect to see new Bretonnians first), Kingdom Death (been nearly a year now), and Deadzone (I just want the terrain which means I'm probably last).

So, yes, I take a "fund and forget" attitude toward all kickstarter projects anymore. Really, you almost have to. :/

I've backed 16 projects to date, and while a month or two isn't the latest I've been involved in, I don't think it's worth simply glossing over those that are behind, doubly so for those with shoddy backer communication.

The vast majority in the $5-75 range are generally fund and forget.

That top tier, however, was significantly out of my "impulse buy, don't care when it shows up" range. $300'ish (after S&H) isn't a paltry sum of disposable income.

That's the wonderful catch-22 of having a forum. "Oh, I don't go there because no one else posts there."

My expectations for the project were shaped by Traveller 5th edition, Ogre, and Bones. In other words: Every dollar past that funding limit is another thing that's going to make the project late. And the only projects that I've seen come in on time have been projects paying for webcomic print runs, or the one guy with the laser that just doesn't want to take any production risks.

By now you should be adjusting your expectations to "This project is bigger than we thought it would be." Not having deadlines is better, in my opinion, than making up deadlines that get continually missed.

 solkan wrote:
That's the wonderful catch-22 of having a forum. "Oh, I don't go there because no one else posts there."

Plenty of people post there, but none of it answers the questions I wish to have answered, while admittedly are selfish, they are questions I have (namely, when the feth will I get my game!)

 solkan wrote:
My expectations for the project were shaped by Traveller 5th edition, Ogre, and Bones. In other words: Every dollar past that funding limit is another thing that's going to make the project late. And the only projects that I've seen come in on time have been projects paying for webcomic print runs, or the one guy with the laser that just doesn't want to take any production risks.

By now you should be adjusting your expectations to "This project is bigger than we thought it would be." Not having deadlines is better, in my opinion, than making up deadlines that get continually missed.

Note that we didn't get the funding breakdown until 2 weeks of the campaign had passed, and nearly 75% of their funding had been accrued (in hindsight).

And more to the point, they didn't actually deign to tell us that they were going to have to delay the September delivery date until September 10th. If they were really and truly buried in work due to 'dramatically exceeding their target' and expanding the books/figures/etc, that should've been quite clear long before the due date loomed 3 weeks away.

Glancing back through the updates, as of July 3rd (a mere 6 weeks from Gencon) they were supposedly 'on track for delivery'.

Evidently that train got seriously derailed somewhere between July 3rd and September 10th.

I find it interesting (I'm not saying it's wrong, just interesting) that people kind of treat Kickstarter like a preordering system, when in reality there's absolutely no guarantee that the product will ever get made. IIRC, that includes not being held to any sort of accountability toward backer rewards.

The fact that Wyrd is saying ANYTHING, and updating weekly, still tells me that your money will eventually be used for the product you backed.

Eh, here's to hoping it's sooner than later. I want to legitimately pay them for the game, not keep scraping 4chan for leaks. (Speaking of which, it's update day, isn't it?)

Matney X wrote:
I find it interesting (I'm not saying it's wrong, just interesting) that people kind of treat Kickstarter like a preordering system, when in reality there's absolutely no guarantee that the product will ever get made. IIRC, that includes not being held to any sort of accountability toward backer rewards.

The fact that Wyrd is saying ANYTHING, and updating weekly, still tells me that your money will eventually be used for the product you backed.

Eh, here's to hoping it's sooner than later. I want to legitimately pay them for the game, not keep scraping 4chan for leaks. (Speaking of which, it's update day, isn't it?)

1) Wyrd most likely didn't need the kickstarter to create Through the Breach considering they had hired Mack (lead designer) 4 months before the Kickstarter began, it simply allowed them to move capital set aside for Through the Breach to other Malifaux/Wyrd Games projects (maybe part of the reason we're getting things like Showdown, Kings of Artifice, and *shudders* Jetpack Unicorn).
2) I went into this project knowing that my money would get put towards the project and I would get my backer reward by the time of fulfillment (because I figured they had learned from their first kickstarter), and if it didn't there are ways to get a refund from Wyrd/Kickstarter should I choose to do this. Believe it or not, the bigger companies get more flak if they fail than the smaller companies, so Wyrd cannot feth this up in the eyes of their backers.
3) Wyrd wasn't updating weekly (and even now you generally have to wait a few days before someone realizes there was an update on the forums) until they did the open beta for the game, it was maybe once a month if we were lucky, and like it's been stated, even up until a month before GenCon, everyone was being told the project was on track for end of September fulfillment.

Also, no updates this week because Mack is busy changing layouts.

Matney X wrote:
when in reality there's absolutely no guarantee that the product will ever get made. IIRC, that includes not being held to any sort of accountability toward backer rewards.

While Kickstarter themselves have very clearly absolved themselves of any requirement to go after errant creators, I would apply this more to "asked for 2 grand, got 5, some guy in a basement" style project. Wyrd may not be a titan of the industry, but taking a quarter of a million dollars from backers and saying "oops, didn't work, too bad" would be a rather massive blow to what community and consumer interest they do have. Their experience and professionalism were touted during the campaign as reasons for the backers to have confidence they'd do what they said they'd do.

I don't think anyone is concerned that the Wyrd crew are going to blow out of town and live it large on a tropical island with 220 grand or so (after KS and Amazon took their cuts), but when a company gives a release target, and then has terrible communication with backers regarding it, and then proceeds to let it fly by with little more than a "oops, not ready, we'll get back to you eventually...", I don't think it's unreasonable to get a little bit antsy.

And let's also keep in mind that this wasn't one of those "half the people are in for $10-20" campaigns either.

Edit for less snark.

Yeah, was gonna say, you can take the money and run, but you better pray that your rep doesn't mean anything.

Remember that Wyrd ran a pretty messed up KS campaign, too. It was one of the more puzzling ones I've seen and if it weren't Wyrd, I wouldn't have backed it. Their behavior now just seems par for the course.

I think everyone expects Wyrd to deliver, it's just the lack of updates in conjunction with the slipped deadlines that make it tiresome.

 Breotan wrote:
I think everyone expects Wyrd to deliver, it's just the lack of updates in conjunction with the slipped deadlines that make it tiresome.

Bingo!

Also since the playtest site was workblocked back in like mid September, it's become a fething hassle to do a quick drop in and see what's new.

Any news? How's the new layout?

Matney X wrote:
Any news?

Nope.

Release dates are, clearly, for chumps.

I mean, they continue to release beta stuff, which is available through the appropriate venue, but it's a little sad that 2 months after they told us they'd miss September, we still don't even have a tentative target.

So much for "What is the release date?

We put September 2013 in order to give us enough time to get things right, but our goal is to actually deliver it sooner without breaking any promises or dates. We want to put the best product possible together and take the time to do so, and we feel it will actually come together quicker, particularly with the support we are receiving here, but we don't want to fall short of expectations."

'It's taking longer because we don't want to compromise quality' seems to be the go to defense of KS campaigns everywhere, and it's getting old.

Between this and Robotech, I'm thinking that the first sign of a Kickstarter campaign to be wary of is that they're 'optimistic for an early delivery'.

Also that I'm not allowed to put in more than ~$50 anymore. Going in for $270 (or... significantly more for Robotech) makes me far more anxious/cranky about delays.

Shadowrun at $65? Didn't bother me in the least that it was delayed 8 months.

Well, with the exception of Dwarven Forge, whom delivered on time, if not a little early. Those guys I'll cheerfully trust with a solid chunk of change.

The closest thing to an update is that Mack is slowly releasing chapters of the Fatemasters Almanac to test and look through, though they are extremely rough, which makes me wonder what the closed beta players have been doing since September when he sought their help after the open beta on the Fated Almanac was started.

There hasn't been an update on the Fated Almanac in about 2 weeks, which makes me think that there will be one final thing (maybe) before that is considered done. If the Fated Almanac's timeline is anything to go by for the Fatemaster's Almanac, then we might not see anything for two more months or so. *sigh*