Magic Items on Combat Vampire Lord - More Strength or More Attacks?

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**Tangent**

If you're building a kit on a combat-focused Vampire Lord with Red Fury and possibly Quickblood, do you prefer to give him a magic weapon that gives a bonus to strength, or a bonus to attacks? And by how much? +1 or +2 or +3?

**DukeRustfield**

I'm no expert, but I don't think you need ASF. You're already super fast. Red Fury is based on unsaved wounds. You're going to hit most likely. So str buys you armor penetration and to-wound. But he's got 5 already. If you're fighting mega armored stuff or really high T monsters, then get Str. If you're using him for anti-Core then +A.

He's only got 3 wounds and with his healing, I'd be worried more about protection. His stats and red fury will take care of a lot of it. From the cuff I'd say +A most times. As I'd be scared of going against stuff like a Monster or the new MC everyone has. Because if you don't kill them or panic, they can turn around and smear you.

Like going against an Arachnarok spider. You can potentially kill it with redfury and +A. But if you don't, it's going to lay 16 attacks and thunderstomp on you. Big gamble.

**Tangent**

Yeah, he's going to be hitting on a 3+ against almost everything, but the ASF granted from Quickblood lets him reroll those misses, which could potentially generate more wounds later and trigger Red Fury to a greater degree. Though, I admit that 30 points to reroll misses when you're already hitting on 3+ seems expensive.

As an example, I've played some games against Beastmen recently, and I had a Vamp Lord with Quickblood, Red Fury, and the Ogre Blade (so he's hitting at Str 7) in combat with a really big unit of Gors (so he's wounding on 2+) . The combat lasted a long time because his BSB was still alive and he had Steadfast, and throughout the many, many rounds that we fought I averaged about 8 wounds per round.

Now, if the Vampire had replaced the Ogre Blade with the Sword of Strife... he would be wounding on a 3+ but would have 7 initial attacks instead of 5. And, if by chance the Beastman player had used the Lore of Beasts spell to increase their toughness to 5, he would be wounding only on 4+, whereas the Ogre Blade would still have him wounding on 2+ despite the toughness boost. I don't know how to do the math to determine which would result in more wounds against toughness 4 enemies.

**HawaiiMatt**

If you run a ghoul king, you don't need ASF. If you run a vampire lord, it's nice to have.

Generally, +2 strength seems to be ideal, but I sometimes run the Sword of Anti-heroes instead. 5 S5 attacks, with re-rolls to hit is pretty good. Adding more strength and attacks if your opponent has characters in the mix is REALLY good.
I had his unit take a charge from 2 bret lances, and he wiped out a whole lance with 8 S8 attacks.

If you are running a lot of fighting heroes on foot, you can get away with skipping the Quick Blood and running a corpse cart instead.

I think "best" gear really depends on what your running for your other Lord. Since I'm running level 4 necro with black periapt, I've had to shift to the cheaper ghoul king. On the other hand, when I run the level 3 necro lord, I can run the more tooled up, and much more survivable Vampire Lord.

-Matt

**jonolikespie**

I like running my Lord with red fury, quickblood, +2S sword, a 4++ save, dragon helm and iron curse icon (for his unit).

Imo redundancy is better than outright number of attacks, I rather 3s with rerolls then 2s on 5 attacks than 8 attacks with 3s then 3s.

**eversor assassin**

What is a good loadout for vampire heroes when he is the only character, just say in an 1000 point game so only 250 points.

**jonolikespie**

Red fury and sword of swift slaying, you get the ASF+red fury combo even with the hero restrictions.

**eversor assassin**

Are his 4 attacks at strength 5 enough though? or do you need additional attacks/strength, and what about a ward save or is the armour and shield enough?

**soldiersapiens**

I like to make one anti armour lord, one anti core hero and two magic heroes. There is no "better" loadout, it all depends on what you're pointing him at.

**Tangent**

It's hard to get a decent ward save (worth having) at such a low point value, in my opinion. Especially if you spend some of your magic item allowance on a magic weapon. If you give him heavy armor and a shield he's got a 4+ armor, which is decent against everything except great weapons, more-or-less. In that case, I would just be careful about what your vampire ends up in combat with.

**Niiai**

A vampier lord will often be abel to top the combat in your favour as long as you have enough ranks to break steadfast. However, what stops you "dead in the tracks" so to speak is if you meet something with really good armour save. Teentch 3+/5++, knights with 1+ or other characters with 1+ armour save. Or T8 sphinx and some other instances of hard oponents. In those few instanses it is really good to have high S to wound and also to get past armour.

**eversor assassin**

Is red fury worth it on vampire heroes if you don't have any other combat characters or is quick blood better?

**sebster**

Niiai wrote:
A vampier lord will often be abel to top the combat in your favour as long as you have enough ranks to break steadfast. However, what stops you "dead in the tracks" so to speak is if you meet something with really good armour save. Teentch 3+/5++, knights with 1+ or other characters with 1+ armour save. Or T8 sphinx and some other instances of hard oponents. In those few instanses it is really good to have high S to wound and also to get past armour.

Definitely true. But on the other hand, if you focus on high strength and get stuck in a horde of T3 mooks you'll lack the killing power you need to hack through them, even with Red Fury.

So the choice depends a lot on your meta, and confident you are of getting the best match up for your fighting vampire lord.

**Niiai**

sebster, that would be true of you did not have rank bonus. But if he is with some skeletons or ghouls T3 troops will not be so dificult to winn.

**sebster**

Niiai wrote:
sebster, that would be true of you did not have rank bonus. But if he is with some skeletons or ghouls T3 troops will not be so dificult to winn.

I'm not talking about enough killing power to overcome the enemy's static res - I'm talking about enough killing power to kill enough of the enemy to break the unit. In my experience, if the Vampire lacks the killing power to get the job done, then a bunch of attacks from his skeleton or zombie bunker isn't going to make the difference.

**rocksteadygreeny**

I think the quickblood is absolutely worth it, my reasoning, a) if you are ever caught with your pants down by "hero killers" aka the super glass hammers like dark elf/high elf characters, or the oh so popular skulltaker (who has initiative 9 an hatred/killing blow) your vamp lord is likely expensive and o watch him get offed by a 150 pt daemon or a naked wytch (hellebron) is a very sad thing to see happen, plus your army takes a hit too. The quickblood will have him at the very least rail out damage before he goes, or in the case of super high init characters that don't have asf he might just dodge the bullet entirely right, and your spending 300-400+ points on a combat lord ya you might as well toss him in the middle of a fight n tear some sh!!t up, quickblood or "eternal hatred" essentially will help with that, remember those times you whiff all 4-5 attacks only needing a 3 plus? Imagine if you got to pick those dice back up n try again lol I wonder how those convats would've turned put with 3-5 extra points of res. Food for thought

Cheers!!
Mike

**Warpsolution**

Quickblood is a good defensive option, no doubt. I'd never take it with a Ghoul King, since the best part of it is something he already does, but with a normal Lord, it's hard to pass up.
Really, it looks like that trend leads to Ghoul Kings being really afraid of stuff with Killing Blow. You wouldn't take Quickblood, since he's got Hatred, and you wouldn't take a Ward save, since he's got Regeneration. Hm. An interesting thought.

**Tangent**

Sorry, been away on vacation.

So, does anyone have an idea of the math behind the difference between more attacks and more strength? Meaning, how many average wounds is the vampire lord putting out against various toughnesses with either option? Considering he's got Quickblood and Red Fury in both.

**Niiai**

The math hammer should not be so hard with his high WS. Just asume he hits on 3+.

Then you would have to do the math vs T3 and T4 times the different armour saves.

**Tangent**

Well, I'm pretty bad at this but I'll try.

First, we'll do higher strength against T3.

The Vamp has 5 attacks and hits on 3+.

3.33 of those attacks hit. Because of Quickblood, he gets to reroll the remaining 1.66 and gets one more hit, for a total of 4 hits (because .33 extra hits or whatever must be rounded down). Right?

He wounds T3 on 2+ with S7. He gets 3.33 wounds, which rounds down to 3 wounds.

Because of Red Fury, he gets 3 more attacks, hitting 2 (or is it 3 because of the Quickblood rerolls?) of them and getting one more wound (due to lots of rounding down).

So, we've got a total of 4 wounds, and this result stays the same until the Vamp's opponent's toughness reaches 6 or higher.

Is all of this math correct? If so, I'll try to do the rest for bonus attacks.

**Ineedvc2500**

Red fury, quick blood (to re roll misses prob gonna strike first any way), *sword of strife*, dragon helm, talis pres, barded mount, heavy armour, shield. 1+/4+/2+ fire ward
This is a good base for combat lord imo. Got 20 extra left over for vamp powers i think You should give him a spear! hahaha jk.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright guys i did some math. Long story short the sword of strife vs ogre blade. Both with quick blood and red fury against toughness 4 5+ armour and 6 parry save.
Drum roll
The sword of strife deals one more unsaved wound (5) than ogre blade (4) after re rolls and additional attacks. and yes i re roll all misses (hit). I can post the numbers later if yall want

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hope this is right
Ogre blade:
5 (4/6) = 3 hits
QB 2 (4/6) 1 hit
4 hits
4 (5/6)= 3 wounds
Saves
3 (6/6) (5/6) = 2.49»2 unsaved
RF 2(4/6)=1hit
QB 1(4/6)= 1 hit
2hits
2(5/6)= 2 wounds
Saves
2 (5/6)= 2 wounds unsaved
Total of 4 unsaved wounds on average

Sword of strife
7(4/6)= 5 hits
QB 2(4/6)= 1 hit
6 total hits
6(4/6)= 4 wounds
4(5/6) =3 unsaved wounds
RF 3 (4/6)= 2 hits
QB 1(4/6)= 1 hit
3 hits
3(4/6)=2 wounds
2(5/6)= 2 unsaved wounds
Total 5 unsaved wounds on average
Lemme know if i messed up

**Tangent**

Ineedvc2500 wrote:
i think You should give him a spear! hahaha jk.

LOL, I really laughed at this, you loser

My only question about your math... did you reduce the armor save due to the Vampire having S5?

**Ineedvc2500**

Yea i did take that into account. I actually didnt give them one cuz its a -2 modifier for str 5 and good lord str 7 -4 modifier.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought you might like that tan lol.

If i remember correctly it negates the armour save if its a 5+ save with a str 5+ attack. If it was a 4+ armour save then a 6+ save could be rolled. Parry save was included. Lemme know if there are any errors and i can do the math again.
BTW there is substaintial room for error due to rounding epecially on ogre blade with that 2.499999 wounds that i rounded down. I will round it up and see if there is any difference.

**puree**

I'll leave someone else to chcek it, but by my rough and ready calc. Assuming 3+ to hit.

Average (mean) wounds inflicted by toughness, save being 5+ (negates by Str) so parry only. With rerolls to hit from quick blood, and red fury for extra attacks

Average (mean) wounds inflicted against T4 with Saves greater than 5+, with a parry as well. With rerolls to hit from quick blood, and red fury for extra attacks

**Tangent**

Well, both of your guys' math matches where it can - you both show that the Sword of Strife, against T4, inflicts one more wound (5 to 4) than the Ogre Blade. Though, Puree's 4.99 there is really close.

So, is that it, then? The Sword of Strife is better against T3 and T4 and the Ogre Blade better against T5 and T6? And then Puree's math about the saves shows that The Ogre Blade is generally always better than the Sword of Strife.

**Ineedvc2500**

I would agree with you on that. Ogre blade is a more appropriate for lord as a catch all (wound all) and i would say strife for vamp hero now that ive seen the numbers. Would you agree?

**Tangent**

Yeah, but I'm still tempted to take the Blade of Strife on the Vamp Lord. The potential for 14 wounds in a single combat round is really sweet. Even if you only get 10 of them he's still probably winning on combat res by himself.

**Ineedvc2500**

Im gonna take it out for a spin against some lizzies. If i can get them to break im doin somethin right

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ooh i think i will give him strength potion too

**jonolikespie**

I've seen a ghoul king with the +3A sword kill 16 dwarf miners and win what should have been a horrible mess of a combat because of it. Having said that I have also seen him fumble his to wound rolls on a unit of 6 ogre.. irnoguts? and die to static combat rez.
As nice as the potential for 16 kills is I rather it be a practically guaranteed 5 kills.

**HawaiiMatt**

jonolikespie wrote:
I've seen a ghoul king with the +3A sword kill 16 dwarf miners and win what should have been a horrible mess of a combat because of it. Having said that I have also seen him fumble his to wound rolls on a unit of 6 ogre.. irnoguts? and die to static combat rez.
As nice as the potential for 16 kills is I rather it be a practically guaranteed 5 kills.

The thing is, usually average attacks is enough from a ghoul king to win combat. If you're hoping to get lucky, isn't 10 kills enough?
After all, it takes less luck to do 10 wounds at S7 then it does to do 16 wounds at S5.

-Matt