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aAhh splitting hairs again I see... Trying to break a rule to benefit yourself and hassle your opponents is, whats the term TFG

Its simple really if my unit was in reserve waiting to DS on and I was delayed then Im still deepstriking. Id have too, and possibly get another delayed result. However if you try and walk on after they where going to DS, Im going to have a serious problem. Since now Ill be in your back field and you want to add help there.
If your afraid of whats coming in on your side of the table change your list, to better deal with it , insted of trying to figure a way to game a rule set. Its really not this hard.

 Akar wrote:
So you think that Zooming flyers that go into 'Ongoing Reserves' must also Deep Strike?

You mean Deep Striking Flyers that later move off the board via Zoom move? Yeah, by RAW it really looks like that. RAI, probably not.

 Akar wrote:
'Ongoing Reserves' does not give the same permissions as Reserves do. It follows the normal rules for 'Reserves'.

Umm. You're kinda contradicting yourself here. Unless explicitly otherwise noted, Ongoing Reserves gives exactly same permissions are Reserves do.

 Akar wrote:
Deep Strike isn't a normal Reserves rule, it's a separate rule that interacts with the Reserves.

Actually, if you had read the Deep Strike rule carefully, you would have seen that it mostly interacts with reserves without capital R. Only times when it refers to Reserve with capital R is when talking about missions that don't use Reserves special rule and in the "Arriving from Deep Strike", where it mentions rolling for arrival. Fact that you've missed this distinction also renders all of your following arguments moot.

 Akar wrote:
There are things that use the Deep Strike rule that don't use Reserves, unlike the Outflank rule which is entirely dependent on the Reserves rule, so had to be addressed there specifically. This supports that Deep Strike isn't a part of normal Reserves. It's the Deep Strike rule that states that units must be in reserve, not the reserve rule that says all Deep Striking units must be in reserve.

Yes, DS rules state that unit must be in reserve.. And unit in Ongoing Reserve is in reserve (note lack of capital R), But this doesn't matter, because I've already shown that my unit is in reserves (Ongoing Reserves are reserves) and that I meet all criteria for using Deep Strike rules.

 Akar wrote:
Being placed or entering into 'Ongoing Reserves' means you use the normal rules for Reserves on P.124.

Yes.

 Akar wrote:
This st This overrides any previous deployment methods, which includes Deep Strike.

Page ref and exact rule quote for this. Or did you just make this up?

 Akar wrote:
If you're still using the 'Deep Strike' rule w/o a rule stating that you do, then you aren't following the normal rules for Reserves.

All the models in my terminator unit have Deep Strike USR (1). They have started the game in reserve (2). I have told my opponent that they will Deep Strike. (3). I have fulfilled every requirement for my unit to be able to DS. Now, give me a reason, with exact rule quote backing you up, why I doesn't my unit meet the criteria for DS?

 Akar wrote:
If you're entering from Deep Strike after placed/entering 'Ongoing Reserves', you're not using the normal rules for Reserves, you're using the Deep Strike rule. That's not what 'Ongoing Reserves' is.

Your argument doesn't make any sense at all.

Proof of Akars example being nonsense wrote:If you're entering from Deep Strike after placed 'Reserves', you're not using the normal rules for Reserves, you're using the Deep Strike rule. That's not what 'Reserves' is.

See? Your argument is exactly as strong for 'Reserves' as it is for 'Ongoing Reserves'. According to you, unit couldn't ever arrive from Reserves via DS. That's how well thought that argument is.

Here is the relevant rule, that also allows DS from Ongoing Reserves.

BRB 124 wrote: When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move fully onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (mapsand diagrams illustrating table edges for the different deployment methods are shown on page 119). Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules (see pages 36 and 40).

So normal rules for Reserves do include ability to use DS and Outflank. This means you can use DS from Ongoing Reserves. Outflank rule explicitly says you may not use it while entering from Ongoing Reserves. DS has no such limitation.

Anyway, we've come to the point in the thread, where you really need to give actual rule quotes backing your 'interpretations'. So far, those have been sorely lacking.

nosferatu1001 - I know, but that's not part of the Deep Strike rule. Deep Strike isn't worded that you declare at deployment, it's worded as you declare when you enter Reserves (which usually happens to be during deployment, but also occurs when you get a Delayed mishap result).

Ongoing Reserves (p 125)
Units always re-enter play on their following turn, otherwise follow all the normal rules for Reserves. Ongoing Reserves only addresses the Reserves rules. (P 124-125) This includes 'Ongoing Reserves' as part of the normal Reserves rules. No mention is made of Deep Strike or Outflank, just 'Reserves'. 'Ongoing Reserves' is a normal part of the Reserves rules, which covers anything that leaves the board during the game. So regardless of the method entered, a unit will arrive from the board edge. The only permissions given by normal Reserves rules are if a unit is permanently Immobile, or that if 'Ongoing Reserves' is used, units arrive automatically w/o needing to roll. 'Ongoing Reserves' does NOT give the exact same permissions as the Reserves rule, because it lists a 2nd exception. It's not a conflict because it also states that this IS an exception.

This is the part that people are adding a rule that doesn't exist. I keep reading it per your request, and it's still not showing up there. There is no provision on p 124-125, that permits the Deep Strike rule to take effect and allow a player to inform his opponent that he is arriving by Deep Strike Reserve. Only mention of either Deep Strike/Outflank is that IF a unit was in Deep Strike Reserve, or Outflank Reserve, do they get to deploy using the methods listed under their individual rules.

Deep Strike (36)
It only says here that when a unit is placed in Reserves, then a player may choose to have it Deep Strike. It's not a permission given by the Reserves rule, it's a permission given by the Deep Strike Rule. It very PLAINLY says when placed in Reserve. The 'Delayed' result clearly says 'Ongoing Reserves'. Since a player is not placing the unit in Reserve, a player does not get to tell his opponent they will be arriving by Deep Strike Reserves in the following turn. The Deep Strike rule itself removes any units in 'Deep Strike Reserves' and means they will deploy as normal Reserves, following the rules listed on p.124-125.

Under the normal Reserves rule, units that are allowed to Deep Strike after a mishap, must be permanently immobile (Drop Pods/Spore Pods). Any other exceptions will be listed in their individual codex rules, since those rules trump BRB rules. So your units of Jump Infantry, Teleporting Terminators, Deathmarks, etc. since they aren't permanently immobile, will follow the normal rules for Reserves, and arrive from the controlling players board edge, as listed under the rules for 'Reserves'.

-----
Now, since you have asked for p #'s and references, it's only fair to allow you the opportunity to reference the rules supporting your case.
1) Where is the permission in the Reserves rule that says it extends to any rules not listed under the Reserves rule? (Units are permitted to ARRIVE by their methods and is allowed by the Reserves rule, if they are there when they arrive.)
2) Where is it stated that if a unit doesn't arrive on the board, it never hits the table/never gets deployed?
3) Where is the rule that states that units continue to remain in 'Deep Strike Reserve', if they are forced into 'Ongoing Reserves'?

Ok, let's spin that around. Show me where it forbids units to use Deep Strike?

Outflank is explicitly forbidden under it's own rules for Ongoing Reserves. Deep Strike isn't. Deep Strike is a rule that ties in completely with the Reserves rules, and nowhere in those rules does it say that Ongoing Reserves is an exception to this.

narked wrote:
Ok, let's spin that around. Show me where it forbids units to use Deep Strike?

Outflank is explicitly forbidden under it's own rules for Ongoing Reserves. Deep Strike isn't. Deep Strike is a rule that ties in completely with the Reserves rules, and nowhere in those rules does it say that Ongoing Reserves is an exception to this.

Do people still use this arguement? It's written in the same place that says Im not forbidden from changing the points of my models, or adding extra points to my army, or using a Space Wolf HQ with Purifiers as troops with Blood Angels Stormravens. Rules are written to allow permission or grant an ability to do something.

Are we using the Deep Strike Rule, or the Reserves rule? According to 'Ongoing Reserves' it's the Reserves rule. The Reserves rule doesn't forbid the use of Deep Strike, it grants permission when and where it allows it to function, which have already been listed above. No, the Deep Strike rules do not tie completely within the Reserves rule, it's a USR just like Outflank. Both state HOW they they work with the Reserves rule, again this has been posted above. There are plenty of things that use the Deep Strike rule that aren't tied to Reserves, that's why they are separate.

So when you enter 'Ongoing Reserves' from the 'Deep Strike' rule, you follow which rule. Ongoing reserves isn't defined under Deep Strike. You have to look to the Reserves rule for how it functions. If you follow the normal rules for reserve then you enter from the board edge. If you Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserves, you are no longer following the normal rules for Reserves, you're now following the rules for Deep Strike.

Every point that has been brought up in defense of allowing Deep Strike from a Mishap has only solidified their position that they can't. Why? Cause they all reference the Deep Strike rule when Ongoing Reserves doesn't permit it. If you read carefully, in my posts I say that Im not opposed to units entering play from a Deep Strike Mishap using the DS rule. It's not wrong to ask for a rule that supports it, instead of just hopping on some bandwagon cause that's how others play it. Regardless of what I think or how I feel it should be played, I have to play it in a way that the rules permit me to. More importantly, when I run an event and I am called to make a ruling, then it has to follow what's in the book, not what I think. I think every judge/TO has had to make calls that they don't agree and go with what's in the rule.

If you and your crew play it that it's allowed, great I'll show up and use those rules. It's not unreasonable to ask the same when you visit/attend any group that you respect how they've ruled it. Most of the larger events, like FoB and Adepticon, have their own FAQ's as to what they are and are not going to allow, which regardless of whether it's written against how they've faq'd it, that's how they've agreed to play it. Im usually fine with a 4+ result if it comes up in-game cause that's also a rule. We're not playing a game here, so this is a good place to discuss it.

Akar, there are two very large problems in this discussion:
1) You're deliberately misreprenting rules. You've again and again written Reserves, when rules actually say reserves. The rules make distinction between these two things. See Deep Strike rules for example. Considering that I already pointed this out to you once, I have to say to for you to keep doing this is very much dishonest of you.
2) Your way of posting without actually quoting anyway seems deliberately chosen to make it easier for you to sidestep any questions asked from you. When you answer this post, do include the question asked from you in a quote, like I have done in every post so far. Same goes for making rebuttals.

 Akar wrote:
Ongoing Reserves (p 125)
"Units always re-enter play on their following turn, otherwise follow all the normal rules for Reserves." Ongoing Reserves only addresses the Reserves rules. (P 124-125) This includes 'Ongoing Reserves' as part of the normal Reserves rules. No mention is made of Deep Strike or Outflank, just 'Reserves'.

And normal Reserve rules mention Deep Strike and Outflank. Something I've shown over and over again. There is no need for Ongoing Reserves to address Deep Strike and Outflank as those are already addressed in Reserves. This argument of yours is completely without merit.

page 124, Reserves, Arriving from reserve wrote:Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules (see pages 36 and 40).

 Akar wrote:
So regardless of the method entered, a unit will arrive from the board edge.

Why? Only rule that says "moves on board edge" also allows DS.

rulebook page 124, Arriving from Reserve wrote: When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move fully onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge. ... Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules (see pages 36 and 40).

Now, give me some exact rule quote that says "unit that arrives from Ongoing Reserves must arrive from board edge". So far, you haven't been able to do that. Until you do, well, everyone who reads this thread can make their own judgements about the 'validity' of your arguments.

 Akar wrote:
This is the part that people are adding a rule that doesn't exist. I keep reading it per your request, and it's still not showing up there. There is no provision on p 124-125, that permits the Deep Strike rule to take effect and allow a player to inform his opponent that he is arriving by Deep Strike Reserve.

So now you claim that one can never Deep Strike, unless one is in immobile vehicle? That is what this argument boils down to.

Besides rules for Deep Strike are found on page 36. Permission to tell opponent that model is arriving by Deep Strike is found there.

 Akar wrote:
Only mention of either Deep Strike/Outflank is that IF a unit was in Deep Strike Reserve, or Outflank Reserve, do they get to deploy using the methods listed under their individual rules.

Another misrepresentation by you. Deep Strike Reserves or Outflank Reserves are never mentioned in the Reserve rules (page 124-125). Quote me exact sentence in pages 124-125 that use the words Deep Strike reserve or Outflank Reserve.

 Akar wrote:
Deep Strike (36) It only says here that when a unit is placed in Reserves, then a player may choose to have it Deep Strike.

False. It reads reserves, not Reserves. Those are two, completely different things, so I'd be grateful if you stopped deliberately misreprenting the rules here.

 Akar wrote:
It's not a permission given by the Reserves rule, it's a permission given by the Deep Strike Rule. It very PLAINLY says when placed in Reserve.

No it doesn't. It actually says. The lack of capital R is extremely important, you might be able to fool some people by deliberately adding it to your arguments when it doesn't exists, but I do have access to the rulebook.

rulebook page 36, Deep Strike wrote:]When placing the unit in [u]reserve[u/]

Note that the rules explicitly say reserves without capital R, not Reserves with capital R as you keep falsely claiming.

 Akar wrote:
The 'Delayed' result clearly says 'Ongoing Reserves'. Since a player is not placing the unit in Reserve, a player does not get to tell his opponent they will be arriving by Deep Strike Reserves in the following turn.

Placing unit into 'Ongoing Reserves' is placing unit into reserve.

 Akar wrote:
The Deep Strike rule itself removes any units in 'Deep Strike Reserves'

No it doesn't. Give me exact rule quote where it says this. Besides, it is Deep Strike reserve, not Deep Strike Reserves.

 Akar wrote:
Under the normal Reserves rule, units that are allowed to Deep Strike after a mishap, must be permanently immobile (Drop Pods/Spore Pods).

There is no rule that says this. In fact, the actual rule is

rulebook, page 125 wrote:Certain rare units are permanently immobile. If a unit like this cannot be deployed,or the player decides to keep it in reserve, it enters the game by Deep Strike.

. No mention of Mishap is mentioned in the rules. So where did you pull that one from?

-----

 Akar wrote:
Now, since you have asked for p #'s and references, it's only fair to allow you the opportunity to reference the rules supporting your case.

Shame that you didn't actually give those rule quotes I asked. Or when you did, you edited them so that their purpose changed. Again, reserves are not same thing as Reserves.

 Akar wrote:
1) Where is the permission in the Reserves rule that says it extends to any rules not listed under the Reserves rule? (Units are permitted to ARRIVE by their methods and is allowed by the Reserves rule, if they are there when they arrive.)

Basic vs Advanced. Any rule may override Reserve rules if the rule itself so says. Example would be Drop Pod assault. Also, on page 124 explicit permission is given under "Arriving from Reserve" to units with DS or Outflank to use those abilities when arriving from reserve,

 Akar wrote:
2) Where is it stated that if a unit doesn't arrive on the board, it never hits the table/never gets deployed?

In following rule in combination with the fact that only units are deployed (page 121, Deploy forces).

page 36, Deep Strike Mishaps wrote:If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed.

 Akar wrote:
3) Where is the rule that states that units continue to remain in 'Deep Strike Reserve', if they are forced into 'Ongoing Reserves'?

First, it is Deep Strike reserve, not Deep Strike Reserve. You're again misreprenting rules. Second, units in Ongoing Reserves are in reserves. Therefore, you're either 1) placing the unit into reserves (note the lack of capital letters in the word), which allows you to put the unit into Deep Strike reserves or 2) you have never left the reserve, meaning that unit is still in Deep Strike reserve. Third, the actual definition of Deep Strike reserve is:

Deep Strike, page 36 wrote: When placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike reserve).

I've re-added the questions you didn't answer properly here:

 Akar wrote:
This st This overrides any previous deployment methods, which includes Deep Strike.

Quote the exact rule that says this.

 Akar wrote:
If you're still using the 'Deep Strike' rule w/o a rule stating that you do, then you aren't following the normal rules for Reserves.

All the models in my terminator unit have Deep Strike USR (1). They have started the game in reserve (2). I have told my opponent that they will Deep Strike. (3). I have fulfilled every requirement for my unit to be able to DS. Now, give me a reason, with exact rule quote backing you up, why I doesn't my unit meet the criteria for DS?

Note: When I ask for rule quote, that means you need to have the relevant sentence from rules written in the post, like I have done in every post in this thread. Without changing the rule by making lowercase words into uppercase, as you have done quite many times already in this discussion. Preferably in way that makes it easy to see that it is an actual rule quote, quote tags or color tags are both good way to accomplish this.

Luide wrote:
And normal Reserve rules mention Deep Strike and Outflank. Something I've shown over and over again. There is no need for Ongoing Reserves to address Deep Strike and Outflank as those are already addressed in Reserves. This argument of yours is completely without merit.

It ALSO mentions units arriving by these methods. If you're going to quote a rule from the book, be sure to mention all of it in your argument.

Luide wrote:
Why? Only rule that says "moves on board edge" also allows DS.

You've split the rule here. When a unit arrives from Reserves (Capitol R, since that's relevant), it arrives from the board edge. It does not allow a unit to arrive by Deep Strike unless it has been declared that they do. If they have been declared as arriving by this method, THEN the Reserves rule allows for them to do so. Simply having the rule doesn't allow them to enter by this method, as you are implying they do.

Luide wrote:
Now, give me some exact rule quote that says "unit that arrives from Ongoing Reserves must arrive from board edge". So far, you haven't been able to do that. Until you do, well, everyone who reads this thread can make their own judgements about the 'validity' of your arguments.

I don't need to cause anyone that can read the book can see this for themselves. Units in 'Ongoing Reserves' (not Reserves or reserves) automatically enter play on their following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves. And per the Reserves rule, 'When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move fully onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge.' It's right there, just not the way you would like to see it.

Luide wrote:
So now you claim that one can never Deep Strike, unless one is in immobile vehicle?

Never said that, only that the only provision covered under the Reserves rule was for permanently immobile models. The Deep Strike and Outflank Rules are still permitted to arrive by these methods, but under the normal Reserves rule only immobile models is covered. The 'Ongoing Reserves' is subject to this permission, so permanently Immobile models will continue to Deep Strike in 'Ongoing Reserves'.

Luide wrote:
Deep Strike Reserves or Outflank Reserves are never mentioned in the Reserve rules (page 124-125). Quote me exact sentence in pages 124-125 that use the words Deep Strike reserve or Outflank Reserve.

They aren't mentioned in the reserves rule. Deep Strike reserve, and Outflank have conditions in their respective rules that permit units to arrive by their methods. If you aren't arriving by these methods, then you are subject to the Reserves rule, if placed in reserve, to arrive from your controlling board edge.

Luide wrote:
No it doesn't. It actually says. The lack of capital R is extremely important, you might be able to fool some people by deliberately adding it to your arguments when it doesn't exists, but I do have access to the rulebook.

Okay, I'll concede here, it does say when being placed into reserve, and not Reserve. Fortunately, 'Ongoing Reserves' uses the rules for Reserves.

Luide wrote:
Placing unit into 'Ongoing Reserves' is placing unit into reserve.

Really? My book says they enter 'Ongoing Reserves' No mention is made of placing anything in reserve under Ongoing Reserve.

Luide wrote:
No it doesn't. Give me exact rule quote where it says this. Besides, it is Deep Strike reserve, not Deep Strike Reserves.

Pg 36, Deep Strike Mishap Table, Delayed - the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserve. The unit is not placed in reserve, the unit is not placed in 'Deep Strike reserve'. It tells you flat out where it does go. If they wanted you to continue to do so, it would've said it here.

Luide wrote:
No mention of Mishap is mentioned in the rules. So where did you pull that one from?

It was in response to the OP that started this thread. It's in the first paragraph on p 125. 'If they cannot be deployed' covers all situations, which would include Deep Strike Mishap or not having room in the Deployment Zone.

Luide wrote:
Again, reserves are not same thing as Reserves.

Just as 'Ongoing Reserves' isn't the same thing as reserves. It follows all the normal rules for Reserves, not reserves. So unit(s) in Ongoing Reserves are never in reserve. Units are only in reserve when placed there by the Reserves rule.

Is this your only rules linking them that they are in reserve? The Reserves rule only allows units to be place in reserves when deploying their armies. When you choose one of those units to be put in Reserve, then you declare that they are arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Ongoing Reserves follows all the normal rules for Reserves, so any unit placed in Ongoing Reserve occurs after players have deployed their armies. Since placing a model in reserve after deployment isn't a normal rule of Reserves, they are in fact, not placed in reserve.

Luide wrote:
If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed.

No mention of whether they arrive or not is made. p121 has no provision for what happens when a player does not have room in his deployment zone for any units that still need to deploy. The Deep Strike rule only covers what to do, if they can't deploy because of the reasons given. When they can't deploy, we then go to the Mishap table. All 3 results do not discuss arrival or not.

-----

Luide wrote:

2) Your way of posting without actually quoting anyway seems deliberately chosen to make it easier for you to sidestep any questions asked from you. When you answer this post, do include the question asked from you in a quote, like I have done in every post so far. Same goes for making rebuttals.

No, it's done to not have this wall of text. I'm not required to, though I have this time, to meet your request. It's deliberately done to address the issues at hand, not sidestep anything (other than sorting out all the /quote requirements in a reply!) I've been nothing but honest, and respectful of everyone's opinion and viewpoint. I am not required to meet any standards to fit your approval, as long as I feel that I have answered, that which I feel is necessary to respond to. Much like you are able to voice your opinion, using your method, to the things that you feel you need to respond to.

Keep it up though, I'm still interested to find out how a unit that enters Ongoing Reserves from Deep Strike is able to do so again after a Mishap. (Beyond those already covered)

I would like to point out that there is no such thing as "Deep Strike reserves" nor "Outflank reserves" as far as actual rules are concerned, there is only Reserve(s).

Those terms are sometimes used to describe those Units arriving from reserve using DS or Outflank.

I point this out because there are no "special rules" for DS/Outflank reserves.

You both keep asking each other to "point out" or "quote" rules in the BRB and that is not possible.

I get that 40k-noob. There are no rules for it to be described, but it's part of the argument.

An opponent must declare by which method a unit is arriving and arrive by the chosen method when they make their reserves roll. They do not get to pick which method they deploy by when they arrive. If you do not pick one of the two alternating methods you then arrive by the normal rules, and come on from the board edge.

The issue is whether Ongoing Reserves allows you to choose/keep the previously declared methods. We know Outflank doesn't continue. I'm supporting that Deep Strike doesn't either since the Mishap table informs players that units are placed in Ongoing Reserve. Ongoing Reserves uses the normal rules for Reserves, which no one is arguing either. It's whether Ongoing Reserves counts as being in reserve or not. I say no, because it tells you exactly what happens with units in Ongoing Reserve.

I'm not opposed to units being able to Deep Strike the turn after they mishap. The rules referenced in favor of them doing so don't state they do. It's a divided interpretation from people I've spoken to. Several players will agree that they continue to use Deep Strike on the following turn. I don't think there is a player out there who will let a Necron player, as an example, arrive by Deep Strike, fly off the board the next turn, and again choose to Deep Strike in the following turns. (Especially if they have Nemesor Zahndrekh.) The difficulty with this is that both are using the Ongoing Reserves rule to do different things. Several players will oversimplify what happens by stating that 'Delayed goes back into reserve', or that units will arrive from Ongoing Reserves via the method they left. I know I've literally said 'I rolled a 5, it goes back into reserve'. when I Mishap. These aren't however a rule, more of a description of what is happening, when to be accurate I should be saying 'I rolled a 5, its in Ongoing Reserve'.

Oddly enough, the players in my area do not allow the use of Deep Strike from a Mishap, so when I originally came across this thread, I thought there was some thing with 'Delayed Mishaps' that was causing problems. On reading some of the replies I thought maybe there was some rule in this edition that I missed that allowed a player to continue to Deep Strike, and have asked to see where in the book this rule is. When Ongoing Reserves was mentioned, I went back and looked at it to see if maybe I was playing it incorrectly. I see no such evidence that allows it, using that rule as a reference.

Aside from the name-calling/derogatory references, this has been a very good discussion in my mind because Im now able to defend that they can't continue to do so, and I am unable to defeat that they can't even if I wanted to or agree that is how it should be played.

Why can Outflank not continue?

Flyers, for example, can leave the field and enter Ongoing Reserves. If they Outflanked onto the field....

 Akar wrote:
I get that 40k-noob. There are no rules for it to be described, but it's part of the argument.

An opponent must declare by which method a unit is arriving and arrive by the chosen method when they make their reserves roll. They do not get to pick which method they deploy by when they arrive. If you do not pick one of the two alternating methods you then arrive by the normal rules, and come on from the board edge.

The issue is whether Ongoing Reserves allows you to choose/keep the previously declared methods. We know Outflank doesn't continue. I'm supporting that Deep Strike doesn't either since the Mishap table informs players that units are placed in Ongoing Reserve. Ongoing Reserves uses the normal rules for Reserves, which no one is arguing either. It's whether Ongoing Reserves counts as being in reserve or not. I say no, because it tells you exactly what happens with units in Ongoing Reserve.

I'm not opposed to units being able to Deep Strike the turn after they mishap. The rules referenced in favor of them doing so don't state they do. It's a divided interpretation from people I've spoken to. Several players will agree that they continue to use Deep Strike on the following turn. I don't think there is a player out there who will let a Necron player, as an example, arrive by Deep Strike, fly off the board the next turn, and again choose to Deep Strike in the following turns. (Especially if they have Nemesor Zahndrekh.) The difficulty with this is that both are using the Ongoing Reserves rule to do different things. Several players will oversimplify what happens by stating that 'Delayed goes back into reserve', or that units will arrive from Ongoing Reserves via the method they left. I know I've literally said 'I rolled a 5, it goes back into reserve'. when I Mishap. These aren't however a rule, more of a description of what is happening, when to be accurate I should be saying 'I rolled a 5, its in Ongoing Reserve'.

Oddly enough, the players in my area do not allow the use of Deep Strike from a Mishap, so when I originally came across this thread, I thought there was some thing with 'Delayed Mishaps' that was causing problems. On reading some of the replies I thought maybe there was some rule in this edition that I missed that allowed a player to continue to Deep Strike, and have asked to see where in the book this rule is. When Ongoing Reserves was mentioned, I went back and looked at it to see if maybe I was playing it incorrectly. I see no such evidence that allows it, using that rule as a reference.

Aside from the name-calling/derogatory references, this has been a very good discussion in my mind because Im now able to defend that they can't continue to do so, and I am unable to defeat that they can't even if I wanted to or agree that is how it should be played.

I am struck by this statement, "Ongoing Reserves uses the normal rules for Reserves, which no one is arguing either."

If you agree that Ongoing Reserves uses the normal rules for Reserves, then how can a unit not be allowed to declare to return to the Game using DS as that is a normal part of the rules Reserves?

If a model is in the game and then leaves the board or mishaps via some means, then that model is in reserve with the exception that it enters automatically on the next turn. That model can use all the rules, abilities, wargear available to it such as declaring DS because Ongoing Reserves uses the same rules as normal Reserves.

That seems pretty clear to me.

40k-noob wrote:
If you agree that Ongoing Reserves uses the normal rules for Reserves, then how can a unit not be allowed to declare to return to the Game using DS as that is a normal part of the rules Reserves?.

If a model is in the game and then leaves the board or mishaps via some means, then that model is in reserve with the exception that it enters automatically on the next turn. That model can use all the rules, abilities, wargear available to it such as declaring DS because Ongoing Reserves uses the same rules as normal Reserves.

Being able declare that you are arriving by Deep Strike isn't covered by the Reserves rule, it's a under the Deep Strike rule. You only get to declare that you are using Deep Strike when you place the unit in reserve during deployment. (p 36) When you are placed in Ongoing Reserve, it is not during deployment, so you do not get to declare that you are arriving by Deep Strike when you go into reserve from Ongoing Reserves. Nothing in either rule says they are deployed in reserve when using Ongoing Reserve, eliminating any possibility to use Deep Strike.

In addition, it says you use the normal rules for Reserves. The only deployment method allowed by units in reserve, using the rules for Reserves, is the board edge. The Reserves rule does permit the arrival of Deep Strike, but not the ability to declare that they are arriving from those methods. Moving from reserve to Ongoing Reserve places the unit in normal Reserves, as if they player hasn't declared the arrival of Deep Strike, because nothing in the Reserves rule permits units to declare any other method.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why can Outflank not continue?

Flyers, for example, can leave the field and enter Ongoing Reserves. If they Outflanked onto the field....

Outflank rule covers this, a unit cannot use Outflank from Ongoing Reserve.

 Akar wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
If you agree that Ongoing Reserves uses the normal rules for Reserves, then how can a unit not be allowed to declare to return to the Game using DS as that is a normal part of the rules Reserves?.

If a model is in the game and then leaves the board or mishaps via some means, then that model is in reserve with the exception that it enters automatically on the next turn. That model can use all the rules, abilities, wargear available to it such as declaring DS because Ongoing Reserves uses the same rules as normal Reserves.

Being able declare that you are arriving by Deep Strike isn't covered by the Reserves rule, it's a under the Deep Strike rule. You only get to declare that you are using Deep Strike when you place the unit in reserve during deployment. (p 36) When you are placed in Ongoing Reserve, it is not during deployment, so you do not get to declare that you are arriving by Deep Strike when you go into reserve from Ongoing Reserves. Nothing in either rule says they are deployed in reserve when using Ongoing Reserve, eliminating any possibility to use Deep Strike.

In addition, it says you use the normal rules for Reserves. The only deployment method allowed by units in reserve, using the rules for Reserves, is the board edge. The Reserves rule does permit the arrival of Deep Strike, but not the ability to declare that they are arriving from those methods. Moving from reserve to Ongoing Reserve places the unit in normal Reserves, as if they player hasn't declared the arrival of Deep Strike, because nothing in the Reserves rule permits units to declare any other method.

40k-noob wrote:
But the DS rule doesn't say anything about deployment. It only says that the unit must start the game in reserve. A Flyer always starts the game in reserve so that condition is met automatically.

You inform your opponent that they will arrive by Deep Strike when the unit is placed in reserve. Units are placed in reserve when you deploy them. If you want to be able to Deep Strike, you must be in reserve.

40k-noob wrote:
... so when you mishap or fly off the table, you must let your opponent know that it will return using DS and then that condition is met.

This is the rule that people are quoting but are adding in something that doesn't exist. Ongoing Reserves doesn't place anything in reserve. It's it's own thing.

Aside from that, the Ongoing Reserves rule dictates that units that re-enter using the rules for Reserves. Unless you're trying to pass off that units in Ongoing Reserve are just in reserve?
I can see your point if you refer where Ongoing Reserves says that units that enter reserves during the game are placed in Ongoing Reserve. It appears here that units are in fact being placed in reserve to trigger the rule. The distinction is made because the unit isn't going into reserve, or else all they would need to say is that units that enter reserves from play will automatically come in on the following turn. No they named it something different.

Imagine a game with a side table for everything in reserve. There are 4 hypothetcal zones here. Normal Reserves (Board Edge), Deep Strike reserve (Deep Strike), Outflank (Outflank), and Ongoing Reserves (Since models are placed there). When units are placed in reserve they are put into the normal Reserves zone, unless they have the Deep Strike rule, or Outflank rule. Once you have placed them in their zones, you must enter play using the method by whatever zone they are in. So a unit with Deep Strike can't use the Deep Strike rule if a player put them in the normal Reserves zone. Same is true Vice Versa.

The trick is that 4th zone called Ongoing Reserves. The only way to get into this zone is to enter reserves during the game, or roll a 'Delayed' mishap. The Ongoing Reserves rule declares that you are going to this zone when you enter reserves. It's declaring that you are arriving by Ongoing Reserves for you. Mishap automatically places you here. Units that re-enter play from Ongoing Reserves enter play from this zone, and not any of the other zones. Entering play from this zone follows all the rules for normal Reserves, which follows all the rules for the normal Reserves zone, not the Deep Strike zone or the Outflanking zone. The minute you put them in Deep Strike reserve, you are no longer in Ongoing Reserves.

I can't make it any more clearer than that.

 Akar wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
But the DS rule doesn't say anything about deployment. It only says that the unit must start the game in reserve. A Flyer always starts the game in reserve so that condition is met automatically.

You inform your opponent that they will arrive by Deep Strike when the unit is placed in reserve. Units are placed in reserve when you deploy them. If you want to be able to Deep Strike, you must be in reserve.

40k-noob wrote:
... so when you mishap or fly off the table, you must let your opponent know that it will return using DS and then that condition is met.

This is the rule that people are quoting but are adding in something that doesn't exist. Ongoing Reserves doesn't place anything in reserve. It's it's own thing.

Aside from that, the Ongoing Reserves rule dictates that units that re-enter using the rules for Reserves. Unless you're trying to pass off that units in Ongoing Reserve are just in reserve?
I can see your point if you refer where Ongoing Reserves says that units that enter reserves during the game are placed in Ongoing Reserve. It appears here that units are in fact being placed in reserve to trigger the rule. The distinction is made because the unit isn't going into reserve, or else all they would need to say is that units that enter reserves from play will automatically come in on the following turn. No they named it something different.

Imagine a game with a side table for everything in reserve. There are 4 hypothetcal zones here. Normal Reserves (Board Edge), Deep Strike reserve (Deep Strike), Outflank (Outflank), and Ongoing Reserves (Since models are placed there). When units are placed in reserve they are put into the normal Reserves zone, unless they have the Deep Strike rule, or Outflank rule. Once you have placed them in their zones, you must enter play using the method by whatever zone they are in. So a unit with Deep Strike can't use the Deep Strike rule if a player put them in the normal Reserves zone. Same is true Vice Versa.

The trick is that 4th zone called Ongoing Reserves. The only way to get into this zone is to enter reserves during the game, or roll a 'Delayed' mishap. The Ongoing Reserves rule declares that you are going to this zone when you enter reserves. It's declaring that you are arriving by Ongoing Reserves for you. Mishap automatically places you here. Units that re-enter play from Ongoing Reserves enter play from this zone, and not any of the other zones. Entering play from this zone follows all the rules for normal Reserves, which follows all the rules for the normal Reserves zone, not the Deep Strike zone or the Outflanking zone. The minute you put them in Deep Strike reserve, you are no longer in Ongoing Reserves.

I can't make it any more clearer than that.

You are also re-entering play following the rules for Deep Strike, and not the normal rules for Reserves.

GW says so.

 Akar wrote:

Luide wrote:
Placing unit into 'Ongoing Reserves' is placing unit into reserve.

Really? My book says they enter 'Ongoing Reserves' No mention is made of placing anything in reserve under Ongoing Reserve.

Really. Being placed into reserve is entering reserve.
If a unit enters reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves.

 Akar wrote:
You are also re-entering play following the rules for Deep Strike, and not the normal rules for Reserves.

Normal rules for Reserves include following quote:
Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules (see pages 36 and 40). . like I pointed out earlier. This gives my explicit permission to deploy models using Deep Strike rules when I enter game from Ongoing Reserves, as long as I meet the criteria for DS. Which I do.

1) All the models in my terminator unit have Deep Strike USR.
2) They have started the game in reserve.
3) When placing the unit in reserve, II have told my opponent that they will Deep Strike.
I have fulfilled every requirement for my unit to be able to DS. Note that according to rules, the unit actually never leaves Deep Strike reserve. And even if it did, when the unit is placed into Ongoing Reserves, it is also placed into reserves, meaning I could just do #3 again.

 Akar wrote:
Pg 36, Deep Strike Mishap Table, Delayed - the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserve. The unit is not placed in reserve, the unit is not placed in 'Deep Strike reserve'. It tells you flat out where it does go. If they wanted you to continue to do so, it would've said it here.

Unit placed in Ongoing Reserve is explicitly placed in reserve. You seem to have completely misunderstood this basic game mechanic. To make it simple: unit in Reserves is in reserve. Unit in Ongoing Reserves is also in reserve.

 Akar wrote:

Luide wrote:
Again, reserves are not same thing as Reserves.

Just as 'Ongoing Reserves' isn't the same thing as reserves. It follows all the normal rules for Reserves, not reserves. So unit(s) in Ongoing Reserves are never in reserve. Units are only in reserve when placed there by the Reserves rule.

This again shows how badly you have misunderstood the rules. Units are placed in reserve both by use Reserves rule and by use of Ongoing Reserves rule.

Basically, my argument boils down to these three things:
1) Ongoing Reserves follow rules for normal Reserves, except that they don't have to roll for arrival.
2) Unit that arrives from Reserves may use Deep Strike to deploy. Because of #1, unit may use Deep Strike also when coming from Ongoing Reserve. Obviously, unit must meet all criteria for DS. Anyone trying to argue that #1 doesn't apply is also arguing that unit may not arrive from Ongoing Reserves at all.
3) If unit meets criteria for DS in normal reserves, it will also meet the criteria for DS in Ongoing Reserves.

When you place a model in normal Reserves, how does it arrive? From the board edge.
When you place a model in Reserves, how does it arrive? By whichever method is declared, if models meet the requirements to arrive via an alternate means.
Does the Reserves rule instruct you on how to arrive using Deep Strike, or Outflank? No, those are listed in their relevant rules section.

Yes, the Reserves rule permits units to arrive using Deep Strike/Outflank, IF those units are arriving by those methods.

Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank, deploy using their special rules

Models with Deep Strike / Outflank in normal Reserves are not arriving by either of these methods. The Reserves rule does not say units with Deep Strike or Outflank, deploy using their special rules. This is the entire flaw in your reasoning. The rules dictating the arrival by Deep Strike / Outflank are listed in their rules, not the Reserves rule. In order to use those rules you must meet the requirements to do so. In order to meet those requirements, you must follow those rules. When you follow those rules, you are no longer following the normal rules for Reserves, you are following the normal rules for Deep Strike or Outflank.

The Reserves rule doesn't give instructions on how to arrive via Deep Strike or Outflank, only that they can if those rules are in use. Having the rule and using the rule are two separate things. They have to be since a player may decide at the original deployment to have his units arrive via Deep Strike or the Table edge. The only instructions given in the Reserves rule is from the Table edge. As soon as you use the rules for Deep Strike, you are following the rules for Deep Strike, which Ongoing Reserves doesn't permit. Once placed in Ongoing Reserves, you are no longer arriving by Deep Strike, you are arriving by Ongoing Reserves. There is no such thing as Ongoing Deep Strike reserves.

You can sit here and interpret that you are meeting all the conditions for Deep Strike while in Ongoing Reserves. You are willfully choosing at this point to ignore the fact that those rules are listed in the Deep Strike rules. You are choosing to ignore that the Reserves rule doesn't include Deep Strike and Outflank instructions. You continue to ignore in the face of actual print, that Deep Strike and Outflank are a part of the Reserves rule. The Reserves rule functions without Deep Strike or Outflank. The Deep Strike and Outflank rules cannot function without the Reserves rule. There is no revolving door, it's one way, though you keep trying to reference that both grant their rules to each other.

The Reserves rule only covers everything listed on p 124-125. These are the normal rules for Reserves. They do not include instructions on Deep Strike or Outflank, so they are not a part of normal Reserves.

The Deep Strike rule declares this as well. You have to use the Deep Strike rule to be able to mishap. There isn't any way to roll on that table without using Deep Strike, and meeting the conditions for Deep Strike. When you roll a Delayed result, does it instruct you to arrive via Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserves? There is no mention in the Deep Strike rules that permits its use from Ongoing Reserve. The only reason you give as to why it does? It's because it doesn't say that I can't like the Outflank rule says you can't? If they wanted you to keep Deep Strike, they would've given you permission to do so. The only units that have permission to continue to Deep Strike under the normal Reserves rule, are those models that are permanently immobile. So if you follow the normal rules for Reserves, these units always enter play using Deep Strike. Terminators, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Flying Creatures and Flyers, are not permanently immobile. You cannot possibly claim that you are using the normal rules for Reserves, when these units aren't meeting this criteria from Ongoing Reserves.

They needed to say something in Outflank, to restrict a unit with Outflank from entering Ongoing Reserve and attempting to use the Outflank rule again. Outflank is works differently than Deep Strike because it says when units arrive from Reserve, they roll. If they left it at that, then units that arrive from Ongoing Reserve follow all the rules for Reserve would allow them to be able to pick a board edge when they came back in.

Deep Strike doesn't have any clause like this because all of it's requirements have to be met BEFORE arriving from Reserve. There are also many things in the game that use Deep Strike, but not the Reserves rule. Drop Pod assault, Demonic Assault, Spore Pod assault, Hunters from Hyperspace, Veil of Darkness, Phased Reinforcements, The Summoning psychic power, etc. These all use the Deep Strike rule, these all do NOT use the Reserves rule. This shows that the Deep Strike rule, along with the Outflank rule, are NOT a part of the Reserves rule, so stop pretending that they are. Yes they have to be in reserve to be able to make use of Deep Strike, but this is NOT a requirement of Reserves, it's a requirement of Deep Strike.

So saying that they meet the requirements of Deep Strike by having the USR, started the game in reserve, telling your opponent that they will arrive by Deep Strike fulfills all the requirements of Deep Strike, meets all the criteria for Deep Strike, when you follow the rules for Deep Strike. It does not meet any requirements for Reserves since Reserves doesn't follow any of the Deep Strike rules, it's got it's own set of rules. There are no rules stating that a unit leaves or never leaves Deep Strike reserves, so stop acting like your method is the correct one, we just don't have an answer. Saying that they never leave Deep Strike reserve,is also stating that they haven't left Deep Strike reserve when they arrive on the table. A model can't be in two places at the same time right? A unit that enters reserves during the game isn't placed into reserves, it's placed into Ongoing Reserves, it's right there in print. Please refrain from saying that Ongoing reserves enters reserves when the Ongoing Reserves says the exact opposite.

The final point that you selectively choose to ignore is that units in Ongoing Reserve do not arrive from reserve. Units in Ongoing Reserve re-enter play following the normal rules for Reserves. There is a difference, but it appears beyond your grasp. Units in Ongoing Reserve do not re-enter play using the normal rules for Deep Strike. Units in Ongoing Reserve do not re-enter play using the normal rules for Outflank. They re-enter play using the normal rules for Reserves. As stated above, when you follow the rules for Reserves, units arrive from your controlling board edge. If units cannot arrive from your board edge it must be because they are permanently immobile. If models are permanently immobile, then they Deep Strike, as covered by the normal rules for Reserves.

What have i unleashed...

All texts in orange are direct quotes from rules.

 Akar wrote:
When you place a model in normal Reserves, how does it arrive? From the board edge.

or Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules as the same paragraph continues. By the way, all units in placed Reserves are placed in 'normal' Reserves. Arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank doesn't magically change the Reserves into 'abnormal' Reserves.

 Akar wrote:
Yes, the Reserves rule permits units to arrive using Deep Strike/Outflank, IF those units are arriving by those methods.

Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank, deploy using their special rules

Models with Deep Strike / Outflank in normal Reserves are not arriving by either of these methods.

I hope you do realise how silly that argument sounds. Your sentence is actually: (text in bold is from the previous sentence)

 Akar wrote:
Models with Deep Strike / Outflank in normal Reserves are not arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank

There are no separate 'normal' Reserves and 'Deep Strike reserve'. 'Outflank reserve' are never referred to in actual rules. For you to be able to place unit in so-called 'Deep Strike reserve' at the start of the game, it must first be placed in reserve. Because Deep Strike USR does not give permission to place the unit in reserve at the start of the game, that permission is generally given by Reserves rule. For C:SM, GK and BA terminators, they don't need to use Reserves rule at all:
They (models in terminator armour) may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules.

 Akar wrote:
They needed to say something in Outflank, to restrict a unit with Outflank from entering Ongoing Reserve and attempting to use the Outflank rule again. Outflank is works differently than Deep Strike because it says when units arrive from Reserve, they roll. If they left it at that, then units that arrive from Ongoing Reserve follow all the rules for Reserve would allow them to be able to pick a board edge when they came back in.

Everyone can judge the difference between DS and Outflank for themselves:
DS: Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows., Outflank When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve. The 'roll for arrival' portion of DS rules can be negated by many more specific rules, like Daemonic Assault or Ongoing Reserves. Classic specific vs general, or basic vs advanced as it is known in this edition.

 Akar wrote:
Deep Strike doesn't have any clause like this because all of it's requirements have to be met BEFORE arriving from Reserve.

Actually, all requirements for Outlank also have to be met before arriving from reserve / Reserves. Reason why Deep Strike doesn't have the clause 'but not Ongoing Reserve' is simple: because you're allowed DS from Ongoing Reserve.

 Akar wrote:
This shows that the Deep Strike rule, along with the Outflank rule, are NOT a part of the Reserves rule, so stop pretending that they are.

I have never, ever pretended that they're part of the Reserves rule. Only thing I have claimed is that Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules is part of the Reserves rule.

 Akar wrote:
A unit that enters reserves during the game isn't placed into reserves, it's placed into Ongoing Reserves, it's right there in print. Please refrain from saying that Ongoing reserves enters reserves when the Ongoing Reserves says the exact opposite.

This is the exact text: If a unit enters reserve part way through the game,such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves.. You seem to believe that unit being in reserve and unit being in Ongoing Reserve are somehow contradictory . They're not. Units in Ongoing Reserves is a subset of units that are in reserve. Units in Reserves are also subset of units that in are reserve.

 Akar wrote:
The final point that you selectively choose to ignore is that units in Ongoing Reserve do not arrive from reserve.

Read the above text in orange. Especially the underlined parts. It explicitly says that when unit enters Ongoing Reserves, it enters reserve. This also means that when the unit arrives from Ongoing Reserve, it arrives from reserve.

 HoverBoy wrote:
What have i unleashed...

Don't worry, I think I'll stop here. I don't think I can convince Akar by dialogue any more than I could convince Dozer Blades. People reading the thread will just have to judge each posts by their respective merits.

Hoverboy, you needn't worry about what you unleashed.

All the evidence has been presented here. Make up your own mind, and you'll be fine.

Odd, I thought you didn't have the choice and have to enter by deep strike.
At the start of the game, I tell you that these 5 storm troopers with melta guns are deep striking.
On my 2nd turn, I pass the reserve roll, and they try and deep strike. They mishap (even with their re-roll) and are placed in on going reserve.

Now, they still are in reserve (ongoing reserve), and I still had told my opponent that they are deep striking in during deployment.

-Matt