Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was thinking about this and came up with rules for it that I thought were pretty balanced and address the majority/all of the issues.

Any model may elect to resolve their close combat attacks with their pistols, but suffer the following penalties:
-the +1 A for two one-handed weapons may only be gained by two pistols.
-the unit may never counter-attack, and suffer from a disoriented charge (no charge bonus)
-WS is reduced by 2, and I is reduced by 1 (both to a minumum of 1) to represent the difficulty aiming and slower reaction time.
-any roll of a 1 to hit results in a hit on the closest friendly unit within range of the pistol.
-Hand Flamers roll a D3 for the number of enemy hits, and D3-1 for friendly enemy hits. WS is neglected in this case.
-if the model has two pistols, the attacks are split evenly between the two (remainder is chosen by owning player)



Doing some mathhammer, this is what it resulted in:

6x vanguard vets (1 bolt pistol, 1 melta pistol)
6x terminators (2 lightning claws, 4 thunder hammers)

Veteran's charge

I 10: 6 auto hits, 3 wounds, no dead terminators

I 4: 6 LC attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 3 dead vets

I 3: 6 melta pistol attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 2 dead terminators
1 melta pistol hit on own squad, 1 dead vet
3 bolt pistol attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead terminator

I 1: 6x TH attacks, easily kills remaining 2 veterans.


Summary, 3 Hammernators remain (4 if rounding against the veterans)


That seems pretty dang balanced to me. Results are about the same if the terminators get the charge. If I remember right, even with overwatch the terminators end up with 4-5 left.

I think that pistols getting an extra shot in close combat would be nice.

Pistols are sidearms. If you need to use it, you're probably in a panic. You will lose some aim, but you will double your shots or even dump your magazine completely.

Mostly dump your magazine.

How would you resolve it though?

We play it differently. We allow the pistol's stats in place of one of the basic attacks allotted, using the weapon skill instead of the ballistic skill. So a bolt pistol would be no different than a regular space marine's attack but a plasma pistol would have its higher strength and deny the armor save. Fairly simple.

 amanita wrote:
We play it differently. We allow the pistol's stats in place of one of the basic attacks allotted, using the weapon skill instead of the ballistic skill. So a bolt pistol would be no different than a regular space marine's attack but a plasma pistol would have its higher strength and deny the armor save. Fairly simple.

...A bolt pistol would still be AP5, though.

I'm all for allowing one attack at the S/AP of the pistol, though, it'd make some weapons (plasma pistols, blast pistols, Inferno pistols) more worth taking.

 amanita wrote:
We play it differently. We allow the pistol's stats in place of one of the basic attacks allotted, using the weapon skill instead of the ballistic skill. So a bolt pistol would be no different than a regular space marine's attack but a plasma pistol would have its higher strength and deny the armor save. Fairly simple.

2nd edition style

Honestly after looking at mine, although it'd be cool it would make the game even more complicated. We all know it has enough of that. Replacing a single attack with the pistol is probably the best way to go.

I think this was the way the leaked early version of the 6e rules implemented it too.

Suddenly...

Seeing as melee weapons have a stat line, here's what I am thinking for pistols.

Bolt Pistol
Rg 12"/ -
Str 4
AP5
Type Pistol/ Melee


Only 1 attack per round, and only when gaining +1 CCW bonus (so not when using Two handed weapon).

Or

A model armed with a pistol may make a snapshot at the enemy he is locked with in the shooting phase, provided he is capable of claiming the +1 A for 2CCWs. A model with a pair of pistols is subject to Gunslingers as normal.

 amanita wrote:
We play it differently. We allow the pistol's stats in place of one of the basic attacks allotted, using the weapon skill instead of the ballistic skill. So a bolt pistol would be no different than a regular space marine's attack but a plasma pistol would have its higher strength and deny the armor save. Fairly simple.

I was kind of hoping GW would do this for Seraphim to match the fluff.

How about giving the model a snap shot with the pistol at INT step 10 each turn?

How about giving the model a snap shot with the pistol at INT step 10 each turn?

I like this, but it feels like this would fit better as a charging bonus, rather than the mainline system. Maybe mix the two, with the pistol profile replacing an attack as an option, and charging with the pistols granting one snapshot at initiative 10 with the weapon profile. This would make dual-pistol models not only effective, but pretty scary. Dual wielding space marine characters with 2 plasma pistols for 30 points and would be absolutely terrifying in close combat. 2 plasma snapshots at initiative 10, followed by 2 plasma shots for close combat that could wind up as precision shots on certain models...yikes. This would make power weapons almost complete irrelevant though, since getting str 7 AP 2 pistols for the same cost is almost too good to pass up, the only downside is its can only do one attack for each pistol, instead of power weapons every attack.

I've always wanted a point blank kind of rule, and the idea of one attack using a pistol sounds great!

However, moving out of pistols, I've also considered other weapons being able to fire a point blank shot. For instance, a shotgun. Surely you would pull the trigger and kick your opponent into the floor in a bloody mess rather than bash it over his head?

so, with that in mind, I came up with this idea:

a model with a ranged weapon may make a point blank shot in close combat. Declare to your opponent that you are attempting to do a point blank shot, before selecting a model you wish to fire and half its attacks characteristic. Using the attacks left over, resolve a single shot from a weapon of your choice for each attack left over. The shot uses the model's WS, and applies shooting special rules such as gets hot. Heavy and salvo weapons may not be fired if the model charged into combat this turn. Template weapons may re roll all failed wounds against a target. Wounds are resolved towards the closest enemy model.

Just a developing idea right now, but currently in my head it seems to work.

G.A

The hand flamer rule is kind of giving me problems. What I end up seeing is MEQ units with lots of pistol flamers burning down hordes of gribbles while laughing at the flames. Although realistic I think its a bit too powerful.

Make it so Hand Flamers just do d3 hits in close combat, like when overwatching. Otherwise, while it sounds powerful, in reality you'll never get to use the template-of-doom because in close combat your guys always end up mixed up with the enemy.