Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I use my Reaper CAV stuff with Battletech every now and again. I find I can find a tech sheet that is close enough.

I don't think I'd call CAV a dead game though, Reaper still sells the models, has rules available and even retailers who order direct from Reaper can still bring it in. As for their Warlord game, it's in print and has an expansion or two that are all still available.

I'm still amazed at how few dead games there are. I think it's the result of the Internet connecting makers and gamers in a way that was only just becoming possible ten years ago.

I think these days, with the internets and the role of local game shops (and what they decide to stock) less crucial we're seeing "niche" games where there previously would be dead ones...

AT-43 going under was a big disappointment for me, as it was just getting interesting with a faction I actually liked: ONI! At the very least I got a massive pile of poorly pre-painted Red Blok minis for really, really cheap before Rackham went tits up.

I am guessing we're not counting historicals? Those pop up, go under and ressurect continually.

I really liked AT-43s background, gorillas excepted. They had the coolest posthuman concept in the world for their Therians.

Battlefield Evolution is still being supported by Mongoose, right?

The big difference between the 90s and today is primarily that the Internet makes it pretty tough to really kill off games unless the published itself goes bankrupt and the IP isn't bought up. Also, there are two big, successful and stable companies that provide real competition - Privateer Press and Battlefront - and a lot of what looks like stable "newer" companies/games with a bright future, like CB, Mantic, Spartan, Wyrd and Warlord. Then you have a gazillion minor companies and miniature makers that easily can get their stuff out on the internet. Heck, when a "DoooooomDark Pervmonsters & Boobies" miniatures line with a game in tow seems to be selling like hotcakes, you just know companies can reach a lot of people they just would not be able to make aware of their products back in the day.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
People have never been hesitant about trying non GW games. And GW has never had a monopoly , virtual or otherwise.

You cannot deny in the UK it certainly seems that way, almost as if GW want to keep it that way...

Which brings me onto my next point

 frozenwastes wrote:

Or have we gotten past the point where people are hesitant about going with non-GW games because they're not sure they'll last? Has Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Flames of War, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars, etc., finally broken into the market enough that it's no longer an issue?

From a UK perspective it depends entirely on where you live. In many of the cities containing some of the older GW's that were established in the mid nineties the gaming communities are still firmly rooted in this being a "GW town" and will be heavily reluctant to get into anything not GW. Though this opinion is starting to wane it is still (from personal experience here) frustratingly difficult to get anyone to try something other than GW's games.

A Monopoly is different to Market Dominance.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
I am guessing we're not counting historicals? Those pop up, go under and ressurect continually.

...
...

The thing about historicals is you can usually use an army for one rule-set with any new rule-set aimed at the same size of battle. At the worst, you might need to rebase the figures.

The business model is not to make a monopoly ruleset with monopoly models.

I'll play:

-Starship Troopers died a sad death but don't forget the other games that tasted the mongoose-kiss-of-death Gangs of mega City 1, Battlefield evolution, etc.

-Alkemy is another one that make a good showing and then disappeared a couple years ago.

-Warlands and Rezolution are barely hanging on, but you don't see them in stores.

-Dark Age is another one that I can't figure out if folks are actually playing or buying minis for.

-Metropolis seems to have died, and Urban war is just hanging on (or is it the reverse....)

-Let's be clear. CAV is dead. CAV minis are still sold because it costs reaper virtually no additional overhead to keep them in circulation but the game itself is dead. The previous edition was PDF-only and had no expansions and the upcoming edition not only changes everything, and seems to be trying to be BT, but has been in limbo for 2 years. Still, I recommend folks wanting a good CAV game for their robot minis head to Troll and Toad and pickup the original CAV rules and the two expansion "Journals of Recognition" for one buck each!

Everyone wants to make a game that sticks around forever, but I wonder if that's the realistic goal of all the games that companies launch or if those companies plan around a short lifespan.

Smaller games, and collectible games seem to have a pretty defined life cycle. The come, they are played, and they die. Bigger (a relative term) size games like GW, PP, Battlefront and Battletech seem to the the exceptions rather than the rule. And small games that stick around for more than a couple years like Infinity and Malifaux could be considered the exceptions that prove the rule. Games like Dystopian Wars haven't been around long enough to really be said to have a track record yet.

I think that many of us who have been in the gaming world for over a decade (or decades...) realize that anything outside of the biggies is likely to be a short-term proposition. We know this, but of course we keep buying.

Of course that's where generic game systems like Song of Blades or Tomorrow's War come in as it makes it easy to use all those old figures again.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
I am guessing we're not counting historicals? Those pop up, go under and ressurect continually.

The thing about historicals is you can usually use an army for one rule-set with any new rule-set aimed at the same size of battle. At the worst, you might need to rebase the figures.

The business model is not to make a monopoly ruleset with monopoly models.

Yeah, I think it's a different market mentality. There are a few big players that stick around for a while, but historical game publishers are pretty aware that rules come and go and if the community gets tired of one ruleset they can always publish another. Historical customers know this and appreciate that there will always be ruleset to try and you don't have to buy new models.

The competition in Historical gaming is to come out with:
-New and shiny rules... or drab-looking rules with some minor innovation
-New and better figures (or cheaper) for popular historical periods (observe the rash of new plastic historicals)
-Figures and/or rules for a historical period that is under-served and drum up business for that period.

There was that odd sea battles game called Dreadfleet that got released and then quickly died.

Dnd miniatures came and went over a seven year span. Maw a stand alone came, it was not bad.

 Triggerbaby wrote:
There was that odd sea battles game called Dreadfleet that got released and then quickly died.

dont forget the first version "deckromunda"

you had celtos as well loads of great minis but rubbish rules ,

 WarOne wrote:
Dnd miniatures came and went over a seven year span.

Which, ultimately, is a pretty good lifespan for a miniatures game, particularly since most gamers don't stick with a game for that long.

Another blip on the screen was Leviathan by Grendel Productions. I think Scotia might have the rights to the resin minis now...

Might as well add Great Rail Wars to the list, too.

-Vilegrimm

 Ouze wrote:

It turned out that we enjoyed Mechwarrior Clix substantially more then 40k. It was cheaper, easier to get into, simpler, and more fun. I still feel that way.
Right after they went under, I ordered a case of clix boxes for the last expansion. They were cheaper then shoats at the time. We decided to play random box games - we'd each take an unopened box and that was our force for the game. It was a total blast.
Great game. Re-reading what I wrote here for typos, I wonder why we don't play it again. Just because they aren't making more doesn't mysteriously make my boxes of mechs disappear.

An excellent point, and this is what I don't get about so many of the people on boards like this. A game without any new updates and rules should still be a perfectly playable, enjoyable game if it ever was to begin with. In the last year, I've bought up a bunch of "old" games that are "dead", Stuff from the plastic edition of Confrontation, AT-43, etc. As well as Boardgames that are self-contained without any expansions, or only with one. I figures if they're fun, they should be ...fun.

I think for many the problem with dead games is that you're not going to get anything new for them, and for those who aren't willing to create their own home-brew stuff to supplement the game when things start to get a little stale (which is a lot of gamers), that limits the life of the game to however long they can keep playing with the same stuff before they get bored.

And of course, if the majority of your gaming is in organised play, or pick up games at clubs or stores, your potential opponent options go way down when a game dies.

 insaniak wrote:
I think for many the problem with dead games is that you're not going to get anything new for them, and for those who aren't willing to create their own home-brew stuff to supplement the game when things start to get a little stale (which is a lot of gamers), that limits the life of the game to however long they can keep playing with the same stuff before they get bored.

And of course, if the majority of your gaming is in organised play, or pick up games at clubs or stores, your potential opponent options go way down when a game dies.

Yep, That is the issue. The only way to enjoy older or less popular games regularly is to deliberately gather a group or club of like-minded gamers who are interested in them. It takes a bit of work because you can't just drop into the game store but I assure you it's worth it. I've been gaming every-other-week for almost 3 years with a group I helped create. We play mostly generic, independent, and some older games (whatever plays fast) and are more than happy to homebrew when necessary. Most fun gaming I've ever had.

Eilif wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
I think for many the problem with dead games is that you're not going to get anything new for them, and for those who aren't willing to create their own home-brew stuff to supplement the game when things start to get a little stale (which is a lot of gamers), that limits the life of the game to however long they can keep playing with the same stuff before they get bored.

And of course, if the majority of your gaming is in organised play, or pick up games at clubs or stores, your potential opponent options go way down when a game dies.

Yep, That is the issue. The only way to enjoy older or less popular games regularly is to deliberately gather a group or club of like-minded gamers who are interested in them. It takes a bit of work because you can't just drop into the game store but I assure you it's worth it. I've been gaming every-other-week for almost 3 years with a group I helped create. We play mostly generic, independent, and some older games (whatever plays fast) and are more than happy to homebrew when necessary. Most fun gaming I've ever had.

Some day, Eilif. I just spend too much time painting my armies/organizing and playing in PP games!

In my time, I was introduced to the mini world via Mageknight. Played it and made it to the World Championships. Sadly, that was the last they had. Too bad as I loved the game and bought cases to get chase figures.

Another game I got into recently was the Dark Age game. Loved the mechanics and had a lot of fun painting the minis but our group dropped the game so it kind of died for me.

In all honesty, each game needs to have a strong foot hold or a core gaming group to keep the games alive in any certain area. Tournaments and prize support really keeps me interested in any game I play.

Eilif wrote:
Yep, That is the issue. The only way to enjoy older or less popular games regularly is to deliberately gather a group or club of like-minded gamers who are interested in them. It takes a bit of work because you can't just drop into the game store but I assure you it's worth it.

You don't need to convince me...

Eilif wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
I think for many the problem with dead games is that you're not going to get anything new for them, and for those who aren't willing to create their own home-brew stuff to supplement the game when things start to get a little stale (which is a lot of gamers), that limits the life of the game to however long they can keep playing with the same stuff before they get bored.

And of course, if the majority of your gaming is in organised play, or pick up games at clubs or stores, your potential opponent options go way down when a game dies.

Yep, That is the issue. The only way to enjoy older or less popular games regularly is to deliberately gather a group or club of like-minded gamers who are interested in them. It takes a bit of work because you can't just drop into the game store but I assure you it's worth it. I've been gaming every-other-week for almost 3 years with a group I helped create. We play mostly generic, independent, and some older games (whatever plays fast) and are more than happy to homebrew when necessary. Most fun gaming I've ever had.

On the one hand there are what I might call "club" players, who are usually veterans, have many different systems and a lot of kit, and a good local community of similar players. Consequently they have no problem moving between systems, doing their own campaigns and so on.

The other kind of player is the casual who wants to buy a complete game off the shelf including terrain, opponents and table space. When the game goes out of production he does not have the resources to continue.

MonsterApocalypse still alive... somewhere?

When it was introduced down here not a single box was sold.

Yeah, if you're a "game store" player than I see the issue. My newish FLGS is constantly pushing tournaments, new games, new armies, etc etc. Understandable, since it's all to drive new and more product sales, since that's his livelihood.

I'm more of a home/club player myself. I have no issue buying multiple forces so my friends and i can just play a good game of whatever on demand, regardless of whether the game or models are brand new or 20 years old...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The other kind of player is the casual who wants to buy a complete game off the shelf including terrain, opponents and table space. When the game goes out of production he does not have the resources to continue.

Not sure I understand what you mean with this. If you bought a complete game off the shelf you would have everything you need, right

I've been mini gaming for a very long time. A couple of decades worth and I've bought into MANY game systems. GW has been the one constant and I'm thankful for it(yes I'm a GW fan, don't hate). I still use some models Ive had from the early 90's. So I see all the kickstarters take a look on how I can adapt the minis for my purposes, than I move along. Been down the belly up road to many times to get fooled or excited.

 TBD wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The other kind of player is the casual who wants to buy a complete game off the shelf including terrain, opponents and table space. When the game goes out of production he does not have the resources to continue.

Not sure I understand what you mean with this. If you bought a complete game off the shelf you would have everything you need, right

Usually people hang out with like minded people. If you buy a game, play it some, then it goes out of production and you want to get a friend into it, you wouldn't be able to as the friend isn't able to pick up the game himself.

Depends on how you look at it. Games usually last more than a few months, so if you play it with a friend and they want to get into it, they should be able to do so in most cases.

Failing retail there's always eBay and so on. At worst, using proxy models and PDFs.

 TBD wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The other kind of player is the casual who wants to buy a complete game off the shelf including terrain, opponents and table space. When the game goes out of production he does not have the resources to continue.

Not sure I understand what you mean with this. If you bought a complete game off the shelf you would have everything you need, right

So one would have thought but the evidence is that people want not only a complete game but also to buy continuing expansions, scenario packs, opponents, tournaments and so on.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

... the evidence is that people want not only a complete game but also to buy continuing expansions, scenario packs, opponents, tournaments and so on.

I think that's a true statement. There is alot to be said for a system that gives you everything ready-to-go. I don't want to downplay the value of the built-in gaming community that larger games like 40k have.

Still, I do think that there are alot of folks who would be interested in other games, or generic (adaptable to any miniatures) games if they knew where to find opponents. I think most gamers who have been playing for more than a couple years have at least one dead or rarely-played miniature game in their closets.

Except for Tournaments, a dedicated games group can come up with scenario packs, opponents and even expansions from other lines of miniatures for whatever game they are playing.

In my area, Malifaux came in with a roar, about 10 people started playing regularly at the store, and within a year it was dead.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I think the biggest minis game flop was Wizard$'s collectible minis games: D&D, Star Wars, Starship battles. Talk about massive power creep, it didn't take long for older minis to become unviable for most of the game. Now a lot of us are stuck with a crap-ton of pre-painted minis that we xan't use or unload...

Not to mentioned they disontinued the Star Wars line (lost the license to Fantasy Flight Games).

They didn't 'lose' the licence. They chose not to renew it, and FFG subsequently picked it up.


Star Wars Miniatures was anything but a flop. At it's height, it was supposedly outselling D&D. But like any collectible game, maintaining interest is key to keeping it going... and the change to 40-figure sets killed that, since it made it too easy to pick up a whole set in one hit. That combined with WotC's continuing trend of fleshing sets out with characters nobody cared about, or new versions of previous set models while there were still 'key' characters that people were clamouring for saw people start to drift away, and when sales started to drop WotC decided to refocus on their 'core' of MtG and D&D.