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So I have picked up quite a bit of the stuff over the years - books and figures that I liked the look off alike but never got round to playing.

A friend is looking into warmachine now but we are a bit concerned that my largish collection of Legion figures (I like elves and Dragonsharks ) may be overblanced compared to his warmachine Memnoth? He has heard that Hordes are much better than Warmachine equvalents?

Are the two "compatable" systems really that much out of balance? If so what sort of ratio would give a good game? 25pts - 20pts?

thanks

They are pretty well balanced against each other.

Hordes have a higher potential damage output on their beasts vs jacks due to the ability to force all of your beasts far beyond your FURY stat, whereas jacks are forced to rely on whatever your caster is willing to give up.

The downside of that is that, without some form of Fury management, most of those beasts would be useless the next turn (or nearly so).

Warmachine has a slight edge later in the game because the caster always gets their FOCUS. If your beasts die, then your warlock loses efficiency. If your jacks die, your caster GAINS efficiency, because they can generally cast more spells or keep the focus to increase their armor.

I hope that makes sense.

There is sometimes a perception that the Fury mechanic of Hordes is stronger than the Focus mechanic of Warmachine, however, in practice if you look at results from lots of tournaments etc they don't seem to bear that out too much.

One thing that can happen though is that the more turns a game goes on, the more likely it is to go in the Warmachine player's favour. This is because as a Warlock loses their warbeasts, their supply of fury is reduced, and they have less options for transferring damage etc. In contrast, if a Warcaster loses their warjacks it just means they have more focus free for their own use, to spend on spells or boosting or camp for armour.

If you're both new to the actual gameplay I wouldn't worry about factions being out of balance - player skill is a much bigger factor and you should both probably follow a similar learning curve on that score.

thanks guys thats useful info - I'll feed it back and hopefully get some games in

 Mr Morden wrote:
So I have picked up quite a bit of the stuff over the years - books and figures that I liked the look off alike but never got round to playing.

A friend is looking into warmachine now but we are a bit concerned that my largish collection of Legion figures (I like elves and Dragonsharks ) may be overblanced compared to his warmachine Memnoth? He has heard that Hordes are much better than Warmachine equvalents?

Are the two "compatable" systems really that much out of balance? If so what sort of ratio would give a good game? 25pts - 20pts?

thanks

the two systems are extremely well balanced against each other. in short, whoever told your friend that hordes are much better than warmachine faction is dead wrong. ig tournament results will back me up, with an even split between hordes and warmachine factions. this isnt 40k, where a handful of builds from a handful of codices dominate.

Now i play both hordes (Circle) and warmachine (Khador). Both systems bring a different feel to the table, and both have different strengths and weaknesses. It is true to say fury is better than focus. you can heal your beasts with it, boost "on the fly", as well as tap multiple beasts harder than you can tap multiple jacks, short of focus multiplying spells like unearthly rage and full throttle.. However, you dont play focus v fury. you play warmachine v hordes, and whilst fury (as i said) is a better system, it has far more hoops to jump through. for example, there is the "beast tax" where equivelant beasts cost more than equivelant warjacks. basic khadoran beatstick - juggernaut. 7pts. basic circle beatstrick. warpwolf costs about 25% more. and whilst because beasts are technically better than warjacks due to the fury mechanic, they are also more vital, and necessary. kill a jack, and you've killed a heavy hitter. kill a warbeast, and you've killed a heavy hitter/ wound sink/ fury generator/ animus. in an endgame scenario, this is crucial. the loss of beasts cripples a hordes faction. the loss of jacks to warmachine factions - considering the general superiority, and numbers than warmachine infantry ring is less so. and there is another thing. warmachine infantry is generally more abundant than hordes infantry, and in a lot of ways, brings huge strengths to the table that hordes factions can find a bit lacking at times.

So no. Hordes is not better than warmachine. both systems are balanced against each other.

All of my problems in Hordes Vs. Warmachine has been with new players; As our group started understanding the rules better, the Warmachine players have been doing better, but when we were all new to the rules, the Hordes players seemed to have an advantage.
The big differences come in figuring out where to allocate focus and aggression, which is a little trickier from the Warmachine perspective but when it clicks, asses get kicked.
Also, Warjacks (to me) seem to die a bit more gracefully as well, as jacks always get full dice but have their specific parts break, whereas Warbeasts start losing dice rather than weapons, which can make a big difference later on (mat 7 + 1d6 is way worse than str8 + 2d6). In addition, Warlocks can't use fury to heal; they can shunt damage off to their beasts, but only once and once that damage is on it takes a healing spell to get back up. Warcasters can heal with focus, which is inefficient but important to remember, and they can overboost their shields letting them get to much higher armor than Warlocks have access to.
Finally, an 11-point Warjack is all-around (statwise) better than an 11-point Warbeast, with the best examples being Khador jacks vs. just about anything else.

 Dracofactory wrote:
In addition, Warlocks can't use fury to heal; they can shunt damage off to their beasts, but only once and once that damage is on it takes a healing spell to get back up. Warcasters can heal with focus, which is inefficient but important to remember, and they can overboost their shields letting them get to much higher armor than Warlocks have access to.

Incorrect. a warlock can spend a point of fury to heal either themselves or a beast.

Deadnight said it very well in his first post: Fury is better than focus, but hordes is the equal of warmachine.

Protectorate is also an exception to many of the pitfalls of the focus mechanic and can almost ignore the usual soft cap on battlegroup limits.

With the way Fury/Focus works it generally breaks down to;
Warbeasts > Warjacks
But;
Warcasters > Warlocks

Thanks guys - all really helpful

My impression of it is this;

Warmachine armies, for the most part, go more "infantry-centric" to balance out the Focus mechanic. Its not to say Jacks are bad, far from it, but some factions have better ways to use jacks than others (Cryx for example has Sirens, which are sick).

That said, it honestly comes down to casters, which Warmachines casters are generally better, both statwise and spellwise. Hordes benefit comes from, as others said, forcing beasts to go way above your fury. Beasts can do insane amounts of damage, but thats the focus of Hordes is large beasts. Now, its balanced by the fact that if your beast frenzies, hes basically useless for a turn, and it tends to happen at the most inconvenient times lol.

I'll say this much, I play Skorne (Hordes) and the armies I have the most issues with typically are Warmachine armies. If a caster camps all his Focus a lot of them become stupid hard to kill. While Hordes locks can transfer off damage, this will usually result in killing a beast off, which can be bad. Once a 'Lock loses his beasts, he has to damage himself to get fury to use. Whereas Casters gain focus every turn no matter what.

Both systems are very well balanced; why I love this game so much!

Just a suggestion, but fry changing armies for a game or two, so he gets a view from the other side of the fence, and can see the weaknesses of the Fury system.

Also, rule 1 with Legion is: shoot the Shepards.

 Elemental wrote:

Also, rule 1 with Legion is: shoot the players

fixed that for you.

unless of course legion players ignore bullets, like they ignore every other special rule

Fury is better then Focus. Now you can work around that, but it can be harder for a new player to do it. The downside to the Fury mechanic isn't enough IMO. It needs to have a worse downside IMO.

That said, its still an even game.


Warmachine factions need to use ways of either increasing their avaliable Focus, take more units that don't use Focus, or find ways to make their focus do more work.

Warlocks have gakky spell lists for the most part. They really rely on using an animus or two bring their casting on par with Warcasters (if they even can). This has issues, a key animus might be attached to an otherwise sub-par beast or it might be on a light beast that is easily killed. You can bring backups I guess but them you're just hamstringing your list.

Warlocks can't force out their control area. This sucks. With a Warjack, if it's your control area at the start of the turn you can load it up with focus and fire it off like a missile wherever you want. If it's killed enough to make some place safe, you can move your Warcaster back in to allocate next turn later.. or if you just want to move later in turn based on the board state you have that option. With a warlock, anywhere you want your beasts to be effective you needs to be in your control area. This is especally pronounced on FURY 5 warlocks. Some factions can cheat this more than others, but it's never an issue with Warmachine.

Warlocks are more Vulnerable to small arms fire, as it's harder to transfer away multiple low pow hits than it is to just ignore them with ARM increases.

Transfers are better at taking huge hits, but that really comes out in the wash as if something like the Avatar, Mulg, Karn, Stormclad etc... gets on your lock and you transfer away all the hits (any one of which would 1-shot you.. or the Warcaster) you've done so much damage to beasts the game is probably just about over anyway. You're also still underneath whatever did all that damage.

Beasts are also much more expensive. They get more offense for your buck due to being able to Force more than times but your return on Health/Boxes ARM per point is lower. You're paying 9 or 10 points for the same number of hit points you get off a 7, 8 or even 6 point 'Jack.

The biggest disadvantage to Warmachine has is that with Focus you can forget to allocate the stuff.

I think the balance issues could be solved if you could give more Focus to Warjacks and some casters got more focus.

Like increase the limit of Focus on a Jack to 4. And maybe give all casters one more Focus(except Harbinger)

Grey Templar wrote:Fury is better then Focus. Now you can work around that, but it can be harder for a new player to do it. The downside to the Fury mechanic isn't enough IMO. It needs to have a worse downside IMO.

That said, its still an even game.


Warmachine factions need to use ways of either increasing their avaliable Focus, take more units that don't use Focus, or find ways to make their focus do more work.

there are plenty downsides to the fury mechanic. there is no need for a worse downside. there is no one single downside, but far more hoops to jump through.

frenzies: frenzies at the wrong times have cost me games, multiple times.
the beast tax: like for like beasts cost more than jacks,
the army tax arising from the beast tax: due to how warlocks fuel their spells, they need to take proportionally more, proportionally more expensive beasts. With my favourite caster - Kromac, before i even think of infantry, support pieces and second line hitters, i've got 21points spent(also my free beast points!) on just the basics of my warpack - stalker, ghetorix, gorax. that does not leave a lot of room for solos, units or support pieces.
the "Nature" of warbeasts. yes, they're more expensive. yes, they're also better, and they do more. but they're more vital. kill a jack, and you've killed a heavy hitter. No problem, my infantry - doom reavers, iron fangs, the great bears etc can all step in and fill the gap. Kill a warbeast, and you've killed a heavy hitter/animus/wound sink/fury generator. Nothing can really fill the gap. kill all the warbeasts, and a warlock is all but useless to you. kill all the warjacks, and a warcaster turns into a supersolo. with the result that fury is great for *that alpha strike*, and in an early-game scenario, but like the tortoise, focus is "slow and steady", and in an end game scenario, its sheer reliability rather than potential abundance is worth a huge deal.
the infamous "alpha strike". yes, you've tapped out all your beasts, and cast all your spells. Now what? if i can get to your caster, i can kill him as he cant transfer to a maxed out beast.

fury does not need to be made worse. hordes shouldnt be "weaker" than warmachine.

Grey Templar wrote:I think the balance issues could be solved if you could give more Focus to Warjacks and some casters got more focus.

Like increase the limit of Focus on a Jack to 4. And maybe give all casters one more Focus(except Harbinger)

butcher on 7focus, ehaley on 9, haley on 8, the irusks and the old witch on 8? yeah, thats a recipe for disaster my good man. warcasters dont need more focus, more focus will not make me spend more on warjacks. i'll still spam the behemoth, but now i get to keep an extra upkeep on my iinfantry, and i wont have to rely so profoundly on sylas wishnayler. you've solved nothing. and jacks dont need to spend more focus. as you said in your previous posts, the games are balanced. you dont play focus v fury, so the notion that focus needs to be as good as fury is pointless. they're meant to do different things. one is risk management, the other is resource management. all you're asking for here is an easy button.


If you ask me, the only thing thats needed to allow for a more metal heavy game isnt nerfing fury, or breaking focus. or asking for more focus. and believe me, i've seen the proposed ideas, and virtually all of them are broken as hell, and would turn warmachine's laudible balance into a farce. all you need are better jack marshalls with more potent abilities. if jack marshals could pass on *tactics* to jacks under their control, or act as battlegroup support solos by buffing jacks in a warcasters battlegroup, (which at the moment you cannot do), you've got a very interesting potential for more metal armies.

yes, they're more expensive. yes, they're also better, and they do more. but they're more vital. kill a jack, and you've killed a heavy hitter. No problem, my infantry - doom reavers, iron fangs, the great bears etc can all step in and fill the gap. Kill a warbeast, and you've killed a heavy hitter/animus/wound sink/fury generator.

Exactly. Someone puts down the Avatar and I'm not happy but it's not exactly a disaster, I've still got the Reckoner as a back beater. I put down my buddy's Carnivean and not only is he out a big beater, he's out spiny growth and 4 Fury. Depending on the list his caster might not even have enough not left to top off every turn without cutting herself.

What if rather than straight increasing the Focus on casters they just got one or two free Jack Focus? Focus that can't be use to cast spells, heal damage, increase Control range or give an armor buff, just given out to Jacks each turn? Kind of like how they have Jack Points.

 AduroT wrote:
What if rather than straight increasing the Focus on casters they just got one or two free Jack Focus? Focus that can't be use to cast spells, heal damage, increase Control range or give an armor buff, just given out to Jacks each turn? Kind of like how they have Jack Points.

The issue with any of these things really, is that you'd need to change a lot of other things to keep them in balance. Casters, units and 'Jacks are already designed with the assumption about the Focus restrictions being in place. If you're suddenly getting free focus on you 'Jacks your efficiency goes up even if you're just packing 1 'Jack. I mean if I suddenly had 1-2 more Focus I didn't have to put on my Reckoner I could be throwing out more Ashes to Ashes casting or throwing in some boosts on the bounces, even use Death sentence more.

It's not as if Warmachine factions are less competitive than Hordes factions, tournament results demonstrate that just fine. If the issue here is that Warmachine feels like they can't put enough 'Jacks down the solution is really releasing more 'Jack-centric casters that are good at running lots of machines but deficient in other areas.

Thinking more to specific models I think pFeora would be a particularly good match up against Legion since she's immune to fire (and therefore many of Legion's beast ranged attacks) and her Feat eats Nyss infantry. Backed up by the Choir (as few Legion models have Magical Ranged attacks) she could lead a pretty mean mixed force against Legion.

 AduroT wrote:
What if rather than straight increasing the Focus on casters they just got one or two free Jack Focus? Focus that can't be use to cast spells, heal damage, increase Control range or give an armor buff, just given out to Jacks each turn? Kind of like how they have Jack Points.

the "one pool of focus for jacks, and one pool of focus for spell" idea is broken as hell, even if its just 1 or 2 "free" focus. imagine any protectorate caster eh harby, with the choir in play, and 10 focus, on top of which her three jacks get extra? it wont make single jack casters any better as they're still better off with the one jack - only now its slightly better and they can go off and play their old game like they've always done.

no my friend, its broken. all you've done is get the "one big turn" that hordes factions have, and give it to warmachine factions every turn.

warmachine factions dont need more focus. they're designed with the assumption of a limited focus pool - you know: resource management.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think the balance issues could be solved if you could give more Focus to Warjacks and some casters got more focus.

Like increase the limit of Focus on a Jack to 4. And maybe give all casters one more Focus(except Harbinger)

There aren't any balance issues. The game isn't played with only Warjacks vs Warbeasts and Warmachine has better Warcasters, better solos and better units to counterbalance the designed focus / warjack inferiority to fury / warbeast. Increase the effectiveness of Warjacks and you'll have to rebalance every other factor in both games to compensate for it.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think the balance issues could be solved if you could give more Focus to Warjacks and some casters got more focus.

Like increase the limit of Focus on a Jack to 4. And maybe give all casters one more Focus(except Harbinger)

There aren't any balance issues. The game isn't played with only Warjacks vs Warbeasts and Warmachine has better Warcasters, better solos and better units to counterbalance the designed focus / warjack inferiority to fury / warbeast. Increase the effectiveness of Warjacks and you'll have to rebalance every other factor in both games to compensate for it.

Agreed. The game works fine. It is kind of funky when you are first starting and at very low points levels. But at 35-50 points I think it is relatively well balanced.

I honestly prefer Focus over Fury.
Ive never had an issue of feeling the other was better.


Its not very often that i need 3-4 Jacks to do combat the same turn, i can send them in waves of 2, counter charging warbeasts and take them down fine.

Hordes can Front Load warbeast damage.

Warmachine can send a couple jacks at a time along with hard hitting infantry, or Tarpit infantry.